If you were a newbie combatant....

Sena

Mentors still get credits, just less. Now it's 5% of the first four purchases, to a max of 1000, which means a max of 50 credits per protege and only if they don't start with smaller packages (which is very common). As far as I can find (searching old help files), it was always 15% of the first four up to 1000 before that, but I remember getting 200+ credits from one protege once.

Dolomar

On the topic of clicking--one major thing that's being overlooked is MXP. Achaea has MXP and MXP is awesome. I'm not sure why MXP isn't enabled by default instead of disabled, and much of the newbie intro given the option of clickable MXP commands. It's not buttons (well, it can be, but not in the incarnation I'm envisioning it), but it allows people to ease into the concept of typing out commands instead of clicking buttons by providing commands that are click-to-send initially.

Enabling and using MXP in the newbie intro seems to me like an excellent compromise that could go a long way toward bridging the graphic/MUD 'engaging players' gap, if only because it would allow them to settle in and get to a point where senior players can grab them up and snuggle and cuddle them with advice and empathy and shiny things before throwing them into hardcore mode.

Kyrra

I admittedly protege to friends when I make alts because I know they'll make good use of the bonus mentor credits. They're the people I ask for advice about things and who I learn off most of the time (and it's a legit way around getting yelled at).

I think only two people ever probably played the mentor role for the full experience of taking advantage of hunting bonuses.

Dolomar

Oh! Another thing as a newbie and -especially- without scripts! Pipes! It's SO HARSH to need to light them by number--especially when you can smoke by contents. Loading them up with herbs beforehand is okay since that doesn't typically happen while fighting or something, but needing to check plist and search for the number instead of doing LIGHT ELM or even just LIGHT PIPES to get them all...that would be so much easier.

Eld

You can LIGHT ELM, as long as you don't have any pieces of elm in your inventory (which I think would interfere with SMOKE ELM as well).

Iocun

Should make it possible to target pipes like SMOKE/LIGHT ELMPIPE too, to avoid that issue.

Eld

Iocun said:

Should make it possible to target pipes like SMOKE/LIGHT ELMPIPE too, to avoid that issue.

That would be really nice, yes. Not sure what should happen if you SMOKE ELMPIPE with two elm pipes in inventory and the first unlit and the second lit, but things like that are probably pretty minor.

Aktillum

Antonius said:

I just don't see any way for an action bar to work with Achaea. How do they target? Are we expecting them to have to type an alias to target something they want to attack? Are we going to have them click on the enemy in the list of creatures in the room? That seems like a dangerous road to go down; Achaea is a game where you enter commands to perform actions, it's not a game where you click on things and hit keys to perform actions.

They already do that in the HTML5 client. Please look at the HTML5 client. They can already click their way through the newbie intro, click on denizens to look/attack, click on their backpack, click on their skills. Please. Look at the HTML5 client. I don't think you have. We're already going down that "dangerous road" so I think you should actually experience what you're talking about.

Iocun

Eld said:

Iocun said:

Should make it possible to target pipes like SMOKE/LIGHT ELMPIPE too, to avoid that issue.

That would be really nice, yes. Not sure what should happen if you SMOKE ELMPIPE with two elm pipes in inventory and the first unlit and the second lit, but things like that are probably pretty minor.

SMOKE SECONDELMPIPEYOUKNOWTHEONETHATISLITNOTTHEOTHERONEDUH

In seriousness: I believe anyone who goes as far as to use multiple pipes per cure can probably be bothered to go the extra step and use numbers. If you use multiple pipes, you'll need much more managing anyways to use them optimally.

Dolomar

You can't LIGHT ELM! I've tried! You can SMOKE ELM but not LIGHT ELM.

Eld

Dolomar said:

You can't LIGHT ELM! I've tried! You can SMOKE ELM but not LIGHT ELM.

Are you sure you don't have any elm in your inventory? I went and bought a non-artie pipe and a tinderbox to test it before I posted that, and LIGHT ELM worked for me.

Eld

Iocun said:

Eld said:

Iocun said:

Should make it possible to target pipes like SMOKE/LIGHT ELMPIPE too, to avoid that issue.

That would be really nice, yes. Not sure what should happen if you SMOKE ELMPIPE with two elm pipes in inventory and the first unlit and the second lit, but things like that are probably pretty minor.

SMOKE SECONDELMPIPEYOUKNOWTHEONETHATISLITNOTTHEOTHERONEDUH

In seriousness: I believe anyone who goes as far as to use multiple pipes per cure can probably be bothered to go the extra step and use numbers. If you use multiple pipes, you'll need much more managing anyways to use them optimally.

Looks like currently if you have multiples, SMOKE ELM or LIGHT ELM just targets the first, whether it's lit or not, which is fine. As you say, if you have multiples, you're going to be using numbers anyway.

Israphel

Newbie here. I have Vadi's curing system, I have made my own anti-theft triggers/scripts, my own system of tracking room objcets and then an easy targeting system, my own mana/health/etc. bars and other gauges, and lastly my own button shortcuts to trigger actions/attacks that I (think) I frequently need to use. One other thing I did that helped me a lot as a newbie was a helper to sip health/mana such that when I want a sip, the action is postponed until right after balance is recovered. I can also spam it and it will sip only once when the right time comes. (I guess waiting for balance is not optimal in that it does not account for the lag it takes to receive that information. Assuming that I know how long it takes for balance to be recovered, the action could be triggered sooner than when I get the actual prompt).

Anyway, with all these, I was part of a combat exercise once and I was completely lost in the amount of log spew on the screen. I had no idea what was happening and all I could do in the panic was to just lock on the target and spam various attacks.

My question to everyone: has anyone bothered to replace all the combat logs of all possible actions with something much shorter and decipherable, with color coding? Something along the lines of:

$Adventurer $ActionUsed [$TargetAdventurer] [$AfflictionInduced/OtherImportantConsequence]

[EDIT] I am not sure if balance or eq is required for sips, I forget. Be gentle.

Thanks.

Penwize

Israphel said:

My question to everyone: has anyone bothered to replace all the combat logs of all possible actions with something much shorter and decipherable, with color coding? Something along the lines of:

$Adventurer $ActionUsed [$TargetAdventurer] [$AfflictionInduced/OtherImportantConsequence]

[EDIT] I am not sure if balance or eq is required for sips, I forget. Be gentle.

Thanks.

Actually yes, this is exactly what I do.  I like the flavour text of some of the longer attacks, but in combat they're just not practical to me.  So, I sub pretty much EVERYTHING out for my own lines, that are just single lines and contain user, target and attack name.  So, something like "Person [Freeze] You" or "Person [Jab] You".  Just doing this alone helped me learn a lot about combat back when I was learning, because it also meant I had to go through all the attacks out there and make subs for what they all are.

Also, balance/eq is not required for sipping, only sip balance is (the line that says "You can sip another elixir or tonic" or whatever.).

Israphel

Penwize said:

Israphel said:

My question to everyone: has anyone bothered to replace all the combat logs of all possible actions with something much shorter and decipherable, with color coding? Something along the lines of:

$Adventurer $ActionUsed [$TargetAdventurer] [$AfflictionInduced/OtherImportantConsequence]

[EDIT] I am not sure if balance or eq is required for sips, I forget. Be gentle.

Thanks.

Actually yes, this is exactly what I do.  I like the flavour text of some of the longer attacks, but in combat they're just not practical to me.  So, I sub pretty much EVERYTHING out for my own lines, that are just single lines and contain user, target and attack name.  So, something like "Person [Freeze] You" or "Person [Jab] You".  Just doing this alone helped me learn a lot about combat back when I was learning, because it also meant I had to go through all the attacks out there and make subs for what they all are.

Also, balance/eq is not required for sipping, only sip balance is (the line that says "You can sip another elixir or tonic" or whatever.).

Oops, you are right about the sips, I remember it now. [EDIT] I've been away for many months.

Good point on learning combat by working on replacing the logs yourself.

Saeva

Penwize said:

Israphel said:

My question to everyone: has anyone bothered to replace all the combat logs of all possible actions with something much shorter and decipherable, with color coding? Something along the lines of:

$Adventurer $ActionUsed [$TargetAdventurer] [$AfflictionInduced/OtherImportantConsequence]

[EDIT] I am not sure if balance or eq is required for sips, I forget. Be gentle.

Thanks.

Actually yes, this is exactly what I do.  I like the flavour text of some of the longer attacks, but in combat they're just not practical to me.  So, I sub pretty much EVERYTHING out for my own lines, that are just single lines and contain user, target and attack name.  So, something like "Person [Freeze] You" or "Person [Jab] You".  Just doing this alone helped me learn a lot about combat back when I was learning, because it also meant I had to go through all the attacks out there and make subs for what they all are.

Also, balance/eq is not required for sipping, only sip balance is (the line that says "You can sip another elixir or tonic" or whatever.).

You can do that!? New project..

Iocun

I don't replace lines, but I have a separate Mudlet console on which I can display all these things optionally. It shows party tells, as well as who was attacking whom with what attack.

For example:

39:42 [Dontarion >> Me      ] (deadeyes)

39:44 [Dontarion >> Me      ] (hammer tattoo)

50:31 [Dontarion >> Baatti  ] (deadeyes)

50:31 [Dontarion >> Baatti  ] (deadeyes)

50:32 [Xer       >> Baatti  ] (slash)

I usually have that console hidden though and only use it during group combat, when I want to be able to quickly see who is attacking whom.

Israphel

@Iocun: I really like that formatting. Thanks.

Borran

Iocun said:

I don't replace lines, but I have a separate Mudlet console on which I can display all these things optionally. It shows party tells, as well as who was attacking whom with what attack.

For example:

39:42 [Dontarion >> Me      ] (deadeyes)

39:44 [Dontarion >> Me      ] (hammer tattoo)

50:31 [Dontarion >> Baatti  ] (deadeyes)

50:31 [Dontarion >> Baatti  ] (deadeyes)

50:32 [Xer       >> Baatti  ] (slash)

I usually have that console hidden though and only use it during group combat, when I want to be able to quickly see who is attacking whom.

I want this. Can I has? Plz?

Tesha

I think line substitutions gradually occur over time, automatically. I recognize attacks without reading it all, which is part of why changes seem so strong at first.

Shirszae

Iocun said:

I don't replace lines, but I have a separate Mudlet console on which I can display all these things optionally. It shows party tells, as well as who was attacking whom with what attack.

For example:

39:42 [Dontarion >> Me      ] (deadeyes)

39:44 [Dontarion >> Me      ] (hammer tattoo)

50:31 [Dontarion >> Baatti  ] (deadeyes)

50:31 [Dontarion >> Baatti  ] (deadeyes)

50:32 [Xer       >> Baatti  ] (slash)

I usually have that console hidden though and only use it during group combat, when I want to be able to quickly see who is attacking whom.

Would you at all mind sharing that script?  Or at least give me some points on how you did it? I am terrible with consoles.

Eld

Iocun said:

I don't replace lines, but I have a separate Mudlet console on which I can display all these things optionally. It shows party tells, as well as who was attacking whom with what attack.

For example:

39:42 [Dontarion >> Me      ] (deadeyes)

39:44 [Dontarion >> Me      ] (hammer tattoo)

50:31 [Dontarion >> Baatti  ] (deadeyes)

50:31 [Dontarion >> Baatti  ] (deadeyes)

50:32 [Xer       >> Baatti  ] (slash)

I usually have that console hidden though and only use it during group combat, when I want to be able to quickly see who is attacking whom.

I really like that idea, except that I'm running out of room for extra consoles. And the >>s not being aligned.

Cidusii

Can you substitute lines being displayed in HTML5, or only add additional lines based on the messages received?

Iocun

Eld said:

I really like that idea, except that I'm running out of room for extra consoles. And the >>s not being aligned.

I don't actually have room for the console either. It takes up the same space as another console in my GUI and I only enable it in group combat, and sometimes even only at times during combat (to see quickly what stuff happened recently).

As for sharing it: I'm currently a bit too lazy to extract it out of my scripts, but it's not overly hard to set up. What you need is to have triggers for every attack from a third person view, which is the most laborious part, of course. Each of them indirectly call a "groupcecho" function with arguments for attacker, attacked, and brief name of the attack used. This groupcecho simply uses cecho() to echo into a hideable console, colouring player names by their status (city mate, city enemy, neutral) and adds a brief timestamp with getTime(true, "mm':'ss").

If you're unaware of how to cecho/echo into consoles, it's just cecho(consolename, text). Aligning the >>'s is a simple task for the string.format() function, which you can look up in various Lua tutorials.

Borran

Iocun said:

Eld said:

I really like that idea, except that I'm running out of room for extra consoles. And the >>s not being aligned.

I don't actually have room for the console either. It takes up the same space as another console in my GUI and I only enable it in group combat, and sometimes even only at times during combat (to see quickly what stuff happened recently).

As for sharing it: I'm currently a bit too lazy to extract it out of my scripts, but it's not overly hard to set up. What you need is to have triggers for every attack from a third person view, which is the most laborious part, of course. Each of them indirectly call a "groupcecho" function with arguments for attacker, attacked, and brief name of the attack used. This groupcecho simply uses cecho() to echo into a hideable console, colouring player names by their status (city mate, city enemy, neutral) and adds a brief timestamp with getTime(true, "mm':'ss").

If you're unaware of how to cecho/echo into consoles, it's just cecho(consolename, text). Aligning the >>'s is a simple task for the string.format() function, which you can look up in various Lua tutorials.

Meh. Thanks. I don't have time for scripting nowadays, especially since I never actually worked to understand Mudlet scripts.

Teg

Iocun said:

Saeva said:

I don't think that accessibility and complexity are mutually exclusive. Or don't think they should be. There is a difference in strategy and memory and a sixth sense in combat than with being a computer savvy script programmer.

No, they're not mutually exclusive. But there still are many situations where they go in quite opposite directions. To make Achaea's combat system truly accessible, it definitely would have to become much less complex.

P.S. I don't know of a single successful combatant who owes his success exclusively to programming skills. They help, no doubt, but they're not the primary defining factor.

That's because pretty much everybody who is half-way decent has a system he/she either made themselves or have one of the standardized ones they bought from someone else. The issue isn't Achaea combat is all about programming: the issue is that having a fairly complicated script is the defacto bar of entry into pk at all.

Teg

Cooper said:

Edit: Adding that coding is pretty much a requirement to play Achaea now.

It's not, credits are the requirement for pk and always have being and will continue to be.

Iocun

Teg said:

the issue is that having a fairly complicated script is the defacto bar of entry into pk at all.

Not denying that at all.

Teg

Sarapis said:

Jacen said:

The question confuses me a bit. Are you asking what is complicated about Achaean combat not considering curing systems? Or what's complicated about combat if we weren't allowed to use publicly available systems? Or what's complicated about combat if we weren't allowed to have systems at all? 

If systems weren't allowed, there'd be no combat in Achaea. Imagine knight vs blademaster. If the knight strikes first, the blademaster has to sip health, eat moss, and cure two venom afflictions. That's four actions required in a 1.6-2.5 second period. Even given aliases, you'd never keep up with the afflictions.

Ugh, I remember manually deffing when I was trying to make my own system when I first started Achaea. The HORRER.

I used to fight on Achaea with no systems and could keep up with the curing. It was a long time ago, granted, but that manual reaction speed was supposed to be some of the skill in combat. Triggers have ruined that but there is no conceivable way to ban them or even detect them being used in combat without going to great lengths to ensure that the only client that is possible to be used is a client that we control, and take measures well beyond our capacity to detect when people have modified that client, etc. 

We'll probably end up adding triggering packages server-side to try and make the ramp less harsh for newbies. 

Why don't you just get rid of cure-by-command altogether?

I mean, I really don't see what's the point to having to eat bloodroot to cure paralysis when in reality you have to get a system to handle it anyway.

Just make it so that that affliction decays naturally in the same way as herb balance or w/e (so like 1 affliction decays every 2 seconds or w/e) and give player some control over which affliction decays first. I mean once you take curing out of the equation systems are far less needed.

Rom

edit: forget it