Targossas, the Dawnspear

Jonathin

A knighting program in Targossas would require redefining what a knight actually is. No, honour in the normal sense would not work but I am certain that if someone was determined enough, he or she could figure something out.

Kakotas

And that is the problem. So to create a Knighthood in Targossas of Targossas you would have to redefine the whole concept which isn't really on the table as far as players are concerned I believe. So by Targossian nature Knighthood would have to be external which isn't going to fly with other groups I don't think and may not even fly with the Targossians themselves.

Cooper

Your knighthood does not have to mean what it means in other places.

Kuy

Kakotas said:

And that is the problem. So to create a Knighthood in Targossas of Targossas you would have to redefine the whole concept which isn't really on the table as far as players are concerned I believe. So by Targossian nature Knighthood would have to be external which isn't going to fly with other groups I don't think and may not even fly with the Targossians themselves.

I feel like this whole side of the conversation is trying to define the Paladin class as "Knights."  I don't think that's what should be happening.  Paladins are supposed to be the knightly folk fighting for Good, which has been redefined within Targossas by, you know, the Two who actually have the power to do so.  Sure, you can have the skills of the Paladin class, but if your character isn't actually embodying what those skills are supposed to stand for, then Targossas probably isn't a place that your character belongs, anyway.

Two notes here: 1. This is coming from the perspective of a newer player, and 2. this is not meant to sound derogatory in the slightest.  Please don't take it like it is.

Anywho, "Knighthood," as it seems you want to define it, doesn't really have a place in Targossas.  That's why I'd think Targossas has stated there won't be a Knighthood within the city, as per Santar.  Those within Targossas are supposed to pledge their loyalty to Good, and therefore the code of life which is outlined by Bloodsworn, as they are the end-all, be-all when it comes to Good (another note: I don't think you can disagree with this.  As I understand, this is simply a fact.).  Members of a Knighthood would have to swear to a code outlined within that Knighthood, ending up with a conflict of interests.  Eventually, something will happen and your character will have to make a choice to react in terms of their Knighthood's code or the code outlined by the Bloodsworn.  The way I've come to understand Targossas is the city requires a preemptive strike against these sorts of conflicts.

It's interesting, really.  It opens up all sorts of avenues for new, interesting RP.  You can have the typical knights, upholding loyalty and honour within Cyrene, the Evil knights, who pledge to be an honourable Evil within Mhaldor, and the Good knights, who's code is to follow the will of the Bloodsworn and doing everything in their power, "honourable" or not, to protect Creation, for protecting Creation is the truest form of "honour."

Tesha

I really wanted Knighthood. Turns out Aurora is way cooler than having it. Saying the city is "gone" because it doesn't have knighthood is just obnoxious. Targossas is amazing, Aurora and Deucalion are amazing, and have been very willing to work with me for any event I've wanted, I'm going to guess they would consider working with someone who really wanted to start a knighthood program, or at least help you understand why not.

Giving up, going dormant, not bothering, and then trashing the city months later on the forums isn't the way to go about this. 

Santar

No Knighthood is like the best thing about Targossas. Burn down old traditions. The people who wanted knighthood are a lot of the same people that just wanted to recreate Shallam.

Nemutaur

I like the way Good looks like to a person from the outside now. It used to be being good in the dictionary sense when it was with Shallam. Now it is more like doing whatever it takes to protect your way of life. More like a Crusader or Zealot than the old Code of Honor style of knight, and that is badass.

I'm sure if you guys stopped thinking about it in terms or knights like the others do and just do Crusader it might be met with more approval by the Bloodsworn.

Tesha

Oh man, a Crusader program sounds absolutely badass. I really hope the combat house sets something like that up.

Florentino

Don't you guys already title Auroran knight/crusader/fighter types "Aarashi Shamshir" or whatever? Could just beef up that Order-specific program into a fully fledged knighthood-style thing.

Tesha

Nah, that's a sect of the Order, and the Order isn't quite for everyone. There's a lot of really cool possibilities for this though, I'm excited to see where it goes.

Halos

For knighthood to work in a House in Targossas, they would have to get rid of the idea of honor entirely (which makes them 'not knights' I think most people would agree) or we'd have to redefine what honour means, which is more doable. This just requires a change in verbage, thinking, and context ie. the code of Targossian honor would likely revolve around loyalty to Deucora rather than ideas about ooc medieval chivalry. I have no idea if there are any official plans for pushing this shift in thinking. As far as I know it's all been small time and I assume the Targossian knights are quietly roleplaying their own personal transformations.

Very few people want old "honor" in Targossas just like hardly anyone wants old "Good" (the oft confusing Good=moral good codexical version). They were part of the regular moral dilemmas which on the best days made Shallam interesting and on the worst ones completely paralyzed it internally. IMO, on the whole it strayed a little to close to liberal humanism to be effective as a major aggressor on the axis of conflict.

So. Fuck your human rights. The old ways are dead. Lose your honor and get religion. You can come to your senses and change priorities or die with them (Please do one or the other quickly).

Note that I'm not saying that the second option is an invalid one RP-wise. I'm just saying that most of the refugees who disagreed with the direction admin is pushing Targossas have gratifyingly switched to playing their alts, picked up their characters and moved to Cyrene where they are more comfortable, or joined the irritating but not ignoble ranks which Zenui currently occupies with a fully fleshed out, thoughtfully roleplayed transition to roguedom.

Trevize

Uh, how hard is it to say "honour is the mortal code we follow, but orders from the Gods of Good rise above and do not break this code"?

edit: After reading further in the thread, yes, I second the crusader idea. Jihad! Evil must be wiped out, at all costs - the nature of your enemies justifies your means.

Alynna

I'd go with the 'crusader' suggestion of chivalry. Be kind, honourable, charitable, and all other knightly things... but only to those that follow the one true faith, (In this case, the Bloodsworn Gods.) Everyone who does not swear to such is an infidel and deserves to be destroyed with no mercy or question of ethics. All the people in Ashtan that then scream 'hypocrites' at you, can be ignored, and their opinions invalidated, as they do not follow the true faith, and they are only worthy of being destroyed.

THAT was the Shallam I wanted when I first joined Achaea 11 years ago. I remember being scared being a Hashani novice walking into Shallam, expecting the holy warriors of light to swoop down and kill me for being a citizen of the City of Darkness... instead I got smiles, waves and watched some cuddling.

Cooper

Trevize said:

Uh, how hard is it to say "honour is the mortal code we follow, but orders from the Gods of Good rise above and do not break this code"?

Not hard at all, considering all other knight housese have this built in too.

Achilles

Halos said:

As far as I know it's all been small time and I assume the Targossian knights are quietly roleplaying their own personal transformations.

This.  Every former Knight of the Templars had to go through their own grieving process.  For players like Kakotas who haven't really experienced the highs and lows of starting from scratch and only pop in for a broader inspection they won't find anything that familiar.  There is a reason Draekar, Antonius, and Achilles still have their knighthood titles intact even if its more homage to the past than any current role they have.

Fitz

Excuse my ignorance to Knighthood within Achaea, but when has being a Knight been anything other than following a strict code of vassalage to a figure of authority who bestows the title to you? Would not following whatever doctrine put forth by your Gods suffice, as long as your authority as a Knight is invested in you by them?

Nakari

A lot of these dilemma's seem to confuse me. I mean, the Maldaathi work just fine upholding their own honor code, and I'm pretty sure that they're not getting a free pass on following Sartan's orders whenever they feel like something goes against their own personal morals.

We've got a new good, why not get a new honor to match it? People are right, the old system is right where it belongs on the bottom of the sea bed, but I that just strikes me as the perfect opportunity to make a new 'good knight' to go along with the new good.

If we can spin oppressing the weak as compatible with honor honorable practice, it can't be that hard to fit good together with some definition of honor either. 

Halos

Nakari said:

If we can spin oppressing the weak as compatible with honor honorable practice, it can't be that hard to fit good together with some definition of honor either. 

It isn't impossible, but it won't be easy. Divorcing it from certain team blue players notions about Dalai lama-level kindness, unswerving moral rectitude, and world peace would be good start, for example.

Nakari

Halos said:

Nakari said:

If we can spin oppressing the weak as compatible with honor honorable practice, it can't be that hard to fit good together with some definition of honor either. 

It isn't impossible, but it won't be easy. Divorcing it from certain team blue players notions about Dalai lama-level kindness, unswerving moral rectitude, and world peace would be good start, for example.

Well yeah, anything of this caliber would be hard, but I'm pretty hopeful that this could happen. I mean, those problematic traits are already the ones that are being divorced from other aspects of good, and Aurora/Ducalion/Targ infrastructure have done pretty frankly an amazing job in redefining a deep-set ideology in less then a year. The players who are a part of targossas should already be the ones to have acknowledged that those principles have no place in any aspect of Good (though I get that 'should is the operative term here). It would certainly take work, but the momentum seems to be in this same direction. Divine guidance and a few dedicated players could probably make it a reality.

Silas

Knighthood's not worth the hassle, really. Maybe when things are established we can look into establishing something to mark the transcendence of different classes, but right now it's easier to just sideline it while everybody falls in line with the new ideals.

Anedhel

Tbh, it just kind of seems like you want to be inducted into Targossas at a high rank and with a lot of say because you were a Paladin and a Knight and whatever else.

Otherwise, you're simply so attached to the idea of playing martyr that you're unable to look past it. No one's curtailing -your- Knighthood. I haven't heard a single instance of someone being told to remove their old title (Synbios renounced it, but he's too cool for school, so), and by and large, most of Targossas treats the old knights with deference and respect.

I know that we're supposed to adhere to the whole 'Nothing should stop you from doing what the Bloodsworn say' thing, but so far (and I'm pretty active), I've never been put in a place where I've been ordered to do something distasteful or so far out there that I can't reconcile it with Anedhel's personal convictions. The worst that's happened is he's been made fun of in-game for treating certain people fairly, when they really don't deserve to be given any leeway.

It's also, in my experience, pretty rare that someone from the outside (particularly old Shallamites) actually get Targossas without joining up. Forgive me for saying it, but it kind of seems like you're more fixated on what Targossas is not, than what Targossas is. And that view is what separates the complainers from the joiners.

If your notion of knighthood is so fragile that it depends on others' recognition of how awesomely knightly you are, there's something wrong, fundamentally, with it. No matter which tradition you adhere to, knighthood in any incarnation is based upon devotion and service, even when the reward sucks. The most famous of Japanese feudal heroes got nothing but a stomach full of steel for their trouble, and their Christian equivalents didn't fare so well, either. If you want recognition for how cool you are, fine. Just don't demean the rest of us who're trying to do something interesting and worthwhile with our characters because the hierarchy in which your character was so exalted in is gone.

tl;dr - What you want is to be recognized for how knightly your character is, eh? A ladder to be at the top of? Well, it seems like most Targossian players adhere to the notion that if you want to play a knight, recognition is the least important aspect, and that's a damn healthy change.

Cooper

There's a pretty simple way to describe Targossas.

It's Good Mhaldor with people being nice instead of mean and rude to everyone. (P.s. Mhaldor - Evil doesn't equal being jackasses)

Alynna

Cooper said:

(P.s. Mhaldor - Evil doesn't equal being jackasses)

Lots of nice cuddly snuggly Mhaldorians!

Well, lots of non-jackasses at least.

Nim

I am so confused why being a knight might mean anything other than being an agent and instrument of your Lord or Lady's will. Yeah, chivalry exists, but your Lord/Lady usually comes first. There are exceptions, but I can't see religious knights having a substantial claim to any of those if their Lord/Lady is also literally their God/dess!

Heck, chivalry was usually a romantized idealized version of how knights should behave. I doubt very many knights upheld it perfectly to begin with!

Jacen

Yeah, don't really get some of Targ's vehement opposition to a Knight program. You can be honorable and chivilrous to your own people while still disemboweling every heathen man, woman, and child.

Anedhel

It's not about opposition to the ideal, it's about the idea that you're sublimating yourself to something other that doing your utmost to ensure that the cause succeeds. For the most part, Targossas seems to be about thinking for yourself, working your problems out and figuring out the best, most efficient way of tackling a situation. This is why rigid, outmoded ways of thinking are discouraged, because they're a fetter, rather than a bonus, a lot of the time.

Tesha

Honestly something else that's a problem is the recognition from Wardens/Maldaathi that Kakotas wants. We're Targossian, what the hell do we care what they think? We didn't even take sentinels (!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) to avoid needing outside approval. If we drop sentinels to avoid it, we sure as hell aren't going to ask for it for some knight stuff.

Besides, Crusader sounds way cooler. 

Nim

@Anedhel: I fail to see why being a Targossian Knight would be anything other than a way of streamlining that process for novices. It's not my city, so whatever - just it sounds like most people who don't want knights have very strange ideas of knighthood, and proceed to say Targossas is about things that very much fit into what knighthood actually is!

Anedhel

Nim said:

@Anedhel: I fail to see why being a Targossian Knight would be anything other than a way of streamlining that process for novices. It's not my city, so whatever - just it sounds like most people who don't want knights have very strange ideas of knighthood, and proceed to say Targossas is about things that very much fit into what knighthood actually is!

That's pretty much it. It becomes about becoming a knight. Not about serving the City. The point of a Warden is to be a Warden. When it boils down to it, that's where the energy goes, that's what you care about, that's what you do. That's not what Targossas is about.

Nakari

Anedhel said:

Nim said:

@Anedhel: I fail to see why being a Targossian Knight would be anything other than a way of streamlining that process for novices. It's not my city, so whatever - just it sounds like most people who don't want knights have very strange ideas of knighthood, and proceed to say Targossas is about things that very much fit into what knighthood actually is!

That's pretty much it. It becomes about becoming a knight. Not about serving the City. The point of a Warden is to be a Warden. When it boils down to it, that's where the energy goes, that's what you care about, that's what you do. That's not what Targossas is about.

last I checked the Maldaathi did not any problems being Mhaldorian. I feel like ooc energy is often going to go to achieving some soft of goal, be it knighthood or rank in any other organization. I fail to see how knighthood is going to be any different then house rank in that regard.