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Just read maybe 30% of this thread and wow - interesting, but really nothing new.
I don't understand why people are primarily mad at Elyon here. Yes it's cheap, yes it's OOC, yes it's rightfully infuriating to the people who had a vested interest in payback against Elyon - but at the end of the day, it's not his fault.
The admin have been doing a wonderful job recently on a bunch of things, but we have been staring at the Mark / Infamy / PK system for a decade know, knowing it is pretty much crap. The War system is crap. The Order / shrine system was crap then was changed to be even worse.
Basically, in a PVP game, all of the ways to actually PVP that don't involve making an OOC handshake agreement to fight until someone dies are crap. It's why I personally just stopped caring about the game, and I believe it's why a lot of others did as well.
Elyon's just playing the game the way it's meant to be played now - by taking full advantage of the flaws in the sloppily constructed "rules" and systems in place - flaws that have been repeatedly called out for years and years - so we can hardly pretend this is a surprise, nor is it a new thing (what he did has been uncountable thousands of times, it just hasn't been so obvious in the past).
As they say - don't hate the player.....
When it comes to Infamy, as well as all the other broken mechanics related to it (marks, contracts, shrines, PK rules, War, Honour, etc) - I think IRE is eventually going to have to s--t or get off the pot and either settle on Achaea being a PVP game and making it actually function properly as a PVP with player-generated conflict and rewards for winning said conflicts and consequences for losing said conflict - or it's going to have to settle on being a chat-room with sporadic bouts of OOC "duels" between people who agreed on discord to move their characters to NoT to fight each other.
Oh. If he broke into a shop and stole stuff like.. right after dying a ton to get his infamy reduced...
Maybe he should continue to be hunted down until admins do something. Clearly, spamming the game doesn't catch their attention.
No. No no no. We had rules. Rules that were built and refined over the course of 15 years. And enough people hated them so they got scrapped in favour of "don't be a dick". You don't get to rules lawyer in Achaea anymore. The Admin decide what is right and what is wrong, but players jumping to the defence saying 'The rules don't explicitly say this' isn't how the game works anymore.
I'm starting to think Achaea would just be WAY more fun if there were no Issues / PK rules at all outside of OOC harassment / real-life problems.
The entire concept of rules governing in-game conduct are insanely immersion breaking, as at this point "combat" has been reduced to forum flame wards because it's basically impossible to kill anyone in-game who doesn't agree to duel you, as there is virtually never a reason to not be on a guard stack or a ship nowadays, and even if you're not, there are 15 ways to instantly teleport to them.
I think if people don't want to be involved in PVP they should do what actual Achaeans (literally) did when they didn't want to be killed by invaders. A) Don't piss people off and make them want to kill you and B) Form groups / society to protect each other including having a standing army to scare off pests.
Honestly I'm not sure why anyone even cares what Elyon did here. You couldn't kill him before if he didn't let you, and you can't now either. If he was out of city before, you could kill him, and if he's out of city now, you can kill him. --> Nothing has changed.
Do you really care how much textp he has in a game where dying means nothing, level means almost nothing, and KDA is already a joke at best?
(I mean, bitching about "spam" from deathsights? For real? The pettiness required to say something like that is mind boggling. And if there's anyone in this game that shouldn't be complaining about abusing in-game systems in ways they're not supposed to be used, it's probably the guy who perma-enemies people to Forests and thus automatically Eleusis for OOC beefs without a shred of IG rational, forcing the game admin to completey change how the system works as "common sense" and "maturity" are no longer sufficient safeguards).
I remember Crythril being shrubbed like 3 separate occasions because he let people kill him over and over for exp.
Disappearing from Achaea for now. See you, space cowboy.
smileyface#8048 if you wanna chat.
Abolishing all the rules isn't the answer, it's enforcing them according to the spirit of the rules and not the letter, even if there needs to be a "any obvious or repeated attempt to bypass these rules are themselves against the rules" clause.
There's no downside to pushing and torturing the language of the rules to do whatever you want as long as it isn't a blatant violation, and there's no upside for operating within them.
HELP HONOUR should be an actual requirement and have teeth, not just be a document read by people in unfair situations before they give up and stop trying to play the game.
I'm cool with the consequences to theft!
-Theft is given barely a smidge more consequence-
pls no halp
I do give them credit for this loophole. They discovered it and knowingly took full advantage of it to circumvent the new theft system in which they both gained somthing. But, when those sailors found a loophole in voyages and used it they all got shrubbed. Not saying Aegoth and Elyon should get shrubbed but reverse the infamy lose , xp gain and KD, and put in something to prevent this happening again, give them a slap on the wrist and tsk tsk.
Or stick a IC curse on them and have them roleplay their way out of it for being very assumptive that Ugrach was going to let Elyon return every time. Lol. Ugrach is still going to take the time he's owed so they can't be revived/immolated any way or starburst no longer works, or an extra 10 seconds to walk the halls. Bitch better have Ugrach's money.
ppl are probably more upset that they had to be subjected to aegoth's shitty deathsight for like 2 hours or whatever.
would be enough to drive anyone up the wall.
(Insert your own laughing gif here I cannot be bothered )
This is a comment to say I didn't fancy the new changes for the pickpocketing I'd done before the new system came into play. I was told to "just take the deaths" and I did that. If I was warned in advance about it things would have gone differently but I wasn't and I don't really fancy having the only game I play totally ruined so there you go. I'm a fisherman now.
Probably won't be using the pickpocket system any longer because the cost is that the game becomes essentially unplayable to anyone who isn't the staff winning big bastard so I think I'll just hit shops and houses instead from now on.
(And no I wasn't afking whilst he killed me that would have made it illegal and I don't want to do illegal things)
But yes I absolutely love how annoyed you all seem. I hope you all dream about it tonight, think about it over breakfast and whine about how unfair it is as you sleep. Take your salt and go season a fricking dinner or something, geez.
you could have picked someone with a less annoying deathsight bro come on
The seething jealousy of my deathsight alone makes it worth anything. Scorch those skies, Holocaust King :')
Also @Adrik both you and ploutos assisted me in lowering my infamy too, so you are as much complicit in that as @Aegoth ever was and don't try to deny it here.
holocaust triggers me
@Elyon I never actually attacked you.
If you'll recall, I just unphased and grabbed your body. To. You know. Stop you from spamming us with a death every 8 seconds.
Try again and you might come up with something that's actually right.
@Tahquil read ugrachs speech and rethink this
@Adrik oh. Well several Eleusians were complicit in it then if not you. Pretty sure you did kill me at some point though and are still complicit in the great Elyon infamy drop scheme. This of course, not being the sole event of me trying to die to drop infamy
(Fun fact: You can tell if you were by me not duanatharing when you guys enter the room!)
00:28:12 (Hashan): Elyon says, "Anyone know where Aegis' temple is?"
00:28:17 (Hashan): Accipiter says, "Yes."
00:30:45 (Hashan): Elyon says, "Well again, I need better than that."
00:30:59 (Hashan): Elyon says, "Because I can't go for more than fifteen seconds without someone farseeing me."
I find the whole thing pretty amusing to be honest. Pages and pages about newbies and the unprepared being stolen from (Where you admitted to making 1000's of credits if you include shop theft) and when things change and you have to deal with consequences, you suddenly see what if feels like to have no control over how others allow you to play the game.
When I was mulling over going back into the Ivory Mark, as someone who isn't that great at 1v1 compared to the other marks around (Farrah, Eryl, Mizik etc), I was warned I would be teamed in large numbers.. well, that hasn't happened once. Now I don't pretend that everyone likes me, and no doubt -will- happen at some point, but I'm sure that's in part to not making enemies everywhere I go. I still hunt, I still go out of the city, I haven't really changed my approach to the game other than taking some more precautions when I do head out.
Maybe in hindsight they could have reset the Thief Infamy on the changes though?
As for the way Elyon lost infamy, I see it against the spirit of the game but nothing technically wrong in it. Maybe a Cred dock for a few days? I mean, we have citymates killing each other all the time to bypass the "Passing Relics to people" loophole, not sure how this is much different other than being more noticable.
When I was a mark and dauntless, I barely even got attacked much less teamed, even after joining the black sheep city of the game. I'd like to argue that it's because I have a neck so thick it looks like a lesser man's torso, but in reality it's because, shock of shocks, if you're not a giant dingaling, people don't hound you.
But is there a way to be a thief in Achaea without being a dingaling? Yes, as Tenebrus demonstrated.
But does thievery seem to appeal to dingalings who everyone ends up wanting to team and gang up on, therefore conflating 'everyone hates thieves' intractably with 'people who are easy to hate choose to be thieves'? Also yes.
@Sobriquet sharing city logs with enemies! I'm telling Farrah!
Firstly I became a thief because a thief robbed me when I was new. I know exactly how it felt. I just dealt with it in the most sensible manner. I can tell you that since becoming a thief noone else has managed to rob me, so it worked out quite well. Most of the people bitching here were happy to just let that happen. Don't see any rage threads about Kiet or even Profit, really.
I became a thief knowing the rules of it, followed the rules of it so on and so forth. When the rules changed, I didn't get an opportunity to go "hey no thanks" so this is just that.
Again, no rage thread about the myraid of thieves (with one now living in Eleusis, thank you) that used to block their victims in.
Whats not credible about my character selling his life, though? It's been part of the roleplay all along given that he took up being a thief knowing full well he would die a lot.
As far as I am concerned everything has been entirely by the rules and the only people here complaining are just the bitter and spiteful ones with nothing better to do than whine here. Heck, nearly every person complaining (exception made for a Adrik) is someone that doesn't know a thing about theft in it's current iteration anyway.
You got what you wanted, the only person who will ever likely pickpocket again will be Profit, at least with these changes, it becomes impossible.
With serpent stealth being all but non existent it isn't viable. If serpents had some kinda thing to make them harder to track it could possibly work but right now, not at all. As for any younger player actually looking to learn , it's hopeless.
A few attempts that don't even need to succeed and you're getting pk'd by groups of 5 for the next 2 rl months. When you only stand to gain a letter, 5k gold or some sigils it absolutely isn't worth it considering you have to sacrifice nearly every other aspect of the game to be one.
If you want the real consequence of theft it was that you couldn't really do anything but be a thief. No quests, no fishing, no visiting friends in other cities.,no going bashing which were all fine with me, I suppose, but in short the new update means that ontop of that you also can't go thieving either so I didn't really fancy spending my entire month arsing around waiting for it to naturally go down and had considered just leaving my character to die overnight at the flame but uh, this was quicker, easier and worked quite good.
And the 1000s of credits is entirely shop theft, not from newbies. Part of the reason I'm saying that it "isn't worth it" is because the majority of pickpockets are sigils, letters and tiny amounts of gold in exchange for huge infamy. Nothing I ever got from pickpocketing was ever that good except for maybe your deck.
Absolutely not worth it at all since the fence system requires you to survive x long and the only viable way of doing that under the current updates is to just log out of achaea or sit on a boat
With this in mind I was able to go fishing today without any sort of worry I could be stolen from so that went well.
@Namino it might also be because you seem to do nothing but duel people at nont so most people feel nothing but apathy towards you? I've never really you do much else and I do see a fair bit
I don't duel at NoNT. There's an area border right there.
Just one of the many inaccuracies in your post.
""Whats not credible about my character selling his life, though? It's been part of the roleplay all along given that he took up being a thief knowing full well he would die a lot.""
Because IC you are never supposed to believe that Ugrach will send you back. IC death is supposed to be something to be avoided. Sure we all play with it a little because we know it is a game, but you took it to an extreme. If you had of done it over a week instead of having a trigger to enter flame/renounce that might have been acceptable, but you took an easy way out and substantially destroyed any sort of idea that Achaean death means anything for the duration.
@Accipiter he literally says "if you are not done with life then I am done with you"...
He is literally there giving you the option. Every time. Same option. And again at that point, if he decided to go "nope that's your lot" then fine. How would be leaving the city to die to some non-aegoth be any different to that? Hell how is becoming a thief in the first place any different to that or joining the army?
Yes it was so that I could make my ooc game playable again but in character being unable to do the thing you were born to do would also lead you to a suicide moment, don't you think?
Elyon Said: "As far as I am concerned everything has been entirely by the rules and the only people here complaining are just the bitter and spiteful ones with nothing better to do than whine here. Heck, nearly every person complaining (exception made for a Adrik) is someone that doesn't know a thing about theft in it's current iteration anyway."
Oh, you mean on their current Forum characters that you are aware of? I've already stated I was a thief on another character (now retired) using both old and new theft rules / mechanics.
"With serpent stealth being all but non existent it isn't viable."
You're joking right? Serpent is all about stealth, it has more than any other class, including Phase. Just because a skill has a counter within a few classes doesn't make it useless. The only reason Profit will still do it is because of an OP broken artefact the Admin won't do anything about because $$ trump everything else.
@Sobriquet if you didn't retire them yesterday, that's hardly with these mechanics, is it? Since I've been consistently playing since casing became a thing I see it as unlikely many other successful thieves would have gotten through under my radar.
Yes, phase is good. But firstly phased serpents can be tracked by at least what... Four other classes ? Monks and blade masters not being included in that. When unphased veil farsee renders it entirely pointless if someone's literally going to have a trigger to farsee you. People are able to get to you before you even set the hypno chain up, lol. All it takes is a priest broadcasting your movements and you're shagged.
As for profits veil it's because he bought an auction item and admin wanted to remove that auction item from the game iirc so they gave him that instead. Can't really fault him or admin for that since iirc it wasn't this set of staff who called that one.
I'm not saying a shrubbing is in order, but a disfavour or something to show this isn't acceptable would be nice. Otherwise once I reach my current goal, I can see an easy way to make a few hundred thousand gold selling my XP to people. All I gotta do is pickpocket a couple of times and bam, I won't be breaking the rules at all.
If I got disfavoured for it I would be rather annoyed considering there was no viable alternative, it drastically screwed my ability to play the game l and no actual breaking of rules was involved but whatever. Perhaps admin will rewrite that rule to include no repeated deaths for infamy drops or whatever. Again, irrelevant to me now, thankfully.
Why was there no viable alternative?
Accepting consequences is hard for some people.
@Kogan the only way out of it was death and it made the game unplayable, like I said. Nothing to do and I'm not going to stay logged in and just do nothing for a RL month (which is about how long I'd estimate the infamy to go down) just because of an awkward change.
If I had known in advance that the change was coming I'd have dropped it there and then but there was nothing like that, so eh.
Tried it a bit yesterday and the answer is no thank you so now I think I'm going to try the quests I missed out on for all that time and going about the stuff I used to do before theft. Kinda wierd to be honest.