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Theft Updates

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  • AtalkezAtalkez

    I don't see an issue ignoring the base pickpocket attempt in favor of casing instead on the thief side. Again, it already has a CD and you can't harass someone with it except by repeatedly stalking them for several irl days in a row and hoping you don't die. I think that's mostly an acceptable time investment:risk ratio, where the person should absolutely be way more alert to where you are after 2-3 cases because now we're getting serious.

    So, yeah, remove untargetted theft, seems good to me.





    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • ElyonElyon

    I mean I see targeted theft as the one a lot more likely to cause complaints and grief later down the line because it is kinda by nature only rewarding for the thief to totally dick someone over for their whole pack or whatever but fair enough.

    My example is gonna be that if I really wanted to screw someone I wouldn't have been going around repeatedly trying to get their sigils. I'd have cased them enough to go for their backpack and or prized macguffin.

    Untargetted seems specifically designed for a low risk low rewards sorta thing whereas targeted is more all or nothing

  • AccipiterAccipiter

    6v1 should always result in the death of the 1. I'm sorry but if you can get away from 6 even quasi competent people then something is very broken. Maybe you can make an argument for 3v1 the one being able to get away, but 6 people is like 5% of the online players at most times, if you can escape from that you can escape from anything and it needs to be addressed.

  • AdrikAdrik
    edited July 2021

    Don't even fucking get me started on denizens that steal from your corpse.


    Those bastards can fuck **right the hell off**.


    LOOKING AT YOU RAT BASTARD OF THE TREE. LOOKING AT YOU.


    Edit: I really just wish that as a whole, theft was taken away. Even the baseline chance of "Got a sigil stolen" from pickpocket is annoying and-- as others have said-- people are largely concentrated in city based areas or on ships when not actively engaging with hunting, gathering etc.


    There are a few people, recently, that I have had the delightful chance of RPing with. They reside in the forests mosts of the time, and only come to Eleusis (or to another city) for the sole purpose of "Elyon's been trying to pickpocket me in my grove for the past hour and I want to not have to deal with it."


    It'd be one thing if it was "I'm infamous and x is trying to kill me constantly." or they did something to.. well.. warrant being constantly hounded because a thief just really wants to keep attempting to pickpocket...


    While the fact remains that the thieves are now open PK, it requires a specific subset of classes to deal with. Blademaster can stop evade/mount. Serpent can stop mount (pinshot), Depthswalker can chase evade (but not dash/duanathar)... but the fact still remains of "I have alertness on. If I see a hostile threat enter adjacent, I immediately reflection myself. I get 5 or so reflections, which gives me immunity to most attacks for about 7 or so seconds. I can then Duanathar, evade, dash, urn mount away."


    There's little anyone can do to stop a serpent from getting away that doesn't want to be killed, which mostly stems from just how obscenely broken the Wand of Reflections artefact is. (Seriously, why does Gare break shield + rebounding, but NOT reflections? Who knows).


    tl;dr

    1. Theft is a nuisance and stops a large portion of RP from happening because everyone's always tucked away in a city.
    2. Serpents can generally escape most of the consequences of their actions unless a strike force is constantly farseeing the player to see if they've left their safe haven.
    3. Even if the strike force does bear down on the Serpent, the vast majority of artefacts that provide a plethora of damage immunity (branch), "No touchy" (Lyre/reflections), and other ways of travel (Wings, special wings, knocker, urn mount, evade), makes it have to be a coordinated effort of an insane degree.
  • GrandueGrandue

    @Adrik Next update:

    You point a wand of reflections at yourself and it screams in protest at your request, you rat bastard thief.

  • InuadInuad

    @Nicola Great temporary fixes, but I can't help wondering why -this- form of "danger" is viewed as acceptable in light of the numerous people who have said it made them stop playing.

    Perhaps the administration views these losses as acceptable? Perhaps people with a vested interest in maintaining the current system are strong donors?

    Just strikes me as odd given Achaea's size.

    Anyway, step in the right direction.

  • AccipiterAccipiter
    edited July 2021

    @Nicola Since personal theft is only able to be done by pickpocket now, can we remove all of the downsides to selfishness? The actions it prevents are un-forceable anyway now and by removing the drawbacks of it you will allow a large chunk of automation to be removed. Most people simply have a generosity/give item to person/selfishness alias, but removing the drawbacks would allow everyone to put it on serverside defences and be somewhat protected against unintentional disconnections.

  • KoganKogan

    I’d prefer what @Accipiter recommended but even a suffix to ignore selfishness for a single GIVE command would be helpful. Just make it so it can’t be forced.


    Example: GIVE ITEM TO NICOLA [GENEROSITY]


    So if GENEROSITY is suffixed it ignores selfishness. Not drop selfishness, but just allow the giving of the item specified through it.

  • ElyonElyon

    @Accipiter you are basically "remove theft" at this point

    @Inuad If people quit due to pvp should we remove pvp too? If some quits over messages should we remove messages? Seems like treating dandruff with decapitation

  • ElyonElyon

    @Adrik


    • Theft is a nuisance and stops a large portion of RP from happening because everyone's always tucked away in a city.

    -yeah this is the case for the thief too but theft isn't the only interrupting thing you can do



    • Serpents can generally escape most of the consequences of their actions unless a strike force is constantly farseeing the player to see if they've left their safe haven.

    This is wrong

    At least three cities have specific skills that let you trace players. Monks can do this too. There are relics and other items that help with it, hell you can even phase. Having to live as a thief is the concequences of being a thief, simple as that






    • Even if the strike force does bear down on the Serpent, the vast majority of artefacts that provide a plethora of damage immunity (branch), "No touchy" (Lyre/reflections), and other ways of travel (Wings, special wings, knocker, urn mount, evade), makes it have to be a coordinated effort of an insane degree

    Ok yeah this is the case for literally every situation in the game and my idea of a total aggression timer would sort this out. Going to jump someone? No artefacts Going to rob someone? No artefacts. Going to raid a city? No artefacts. Bash guards? Sorry, wait five minutes or walk out

  • AccipiterAccipiter
    edited July 2021

    @Elyon Having selfishness on serverside defences and doing setalias sgive generosity/queue add eqbal give %0 is essentially the same as not having the restriction at all, because you will virtually never be able to time the pickpocket to end in that window, removing the restriction just removes the OOC communication to telling people to do that.

    EDIT: ok, I tried it. It isn't possible to do it serverside alias unless you config usequeuing on, but doing it clientside is perfectly reasonable and even worse on the OOC telling people things front.

  • ElyonElyon

    @Accipiter no I meant in regards to x is open ok to everyone and you saying that certain number of people should create a situation where X can't win regardless of the skill of either participants. What you appear to support us that a group of people should be able to render the game absolutely unplayable for anyone who is a thief regardless of whether they themselves actually suck.

    The selfishness business just seems pointless to me, really. There isn't any real reason beyond a small quality of life fix that works as a way of adding eq to certain actions ( or risk if you choose not to use it). Wouldn't change theft at all.

  • AccipiterAccipiter

    @Elyon Oh, that is just PK balance. Yes there should be a situation where X number of people can kill 1 person. Not 10 newbies can kill 1 super powerful person, but 6 average combatants should be able to pin down and kill any single person, even the most skilled. Otherwise you have just created an immortal person and there is no risk at all since that person knows they will never be held accountable. You said you wanted risk in Achaea.

  • ElyonElyon

    @Accipiter that isn't adding risk to achaea that's making it so you can just get 6 people and not have any risk at all.

    No mortal character is immortal

    If you believe that simply because someone has developed their escape tactics well that they are "immortal' I shall assure you I die plenty in 1v1 escape attempts with the only difference being that these attempts are with players that aren't total gash.

    Making it so that six people can just go and stomp someone repeatedly isn't adding risk at all, it just means that he with the biggest gang wins, which is uh... Kinda a boring mechanic compared to the maybes of actual combat/chase etc

  • AccipiterAccipiter

    What are you talking about? Disregard theft for a second and think of how PvP works. Classes are balanced around being able to kill each other. 1v1 should be balanced such that outside of a rock paper scissors matchup, both sides have about a 50/50 chance of killing each other. That is just good design. If you have 6 people vs 1 person, the odds should be heavily in the favour of the 6 people. That is maths. Having 6 people being able to stomp one person is how raiding can actually exist, because the group targets one person on the other side and they die and the sides get whittled down. It encourages social interactions because being an asshole and alienating everyone is a bad idea cause you can get stomped when the people who have friends decide to stomp you. It is what the entire idea of a multiplayer game is about. It is what the entire idea of civilization is about.


    But no, you want to be an immortal escape artist that can slip through everyone's fingers. That is fine but it is terrible game mechanics and the Admin should not let it exist if it does.

  • ElyonElyon

    @Accipiter heavily in favour, yes which they already are. I don't know what cup you're drinking from but the likelihood of me or anyone else surviving those events is quite slim and the only reason I've been able to is because I've, instead of working on fighting, worked on the opposite.


    It uh encourages social interaction? No it uhm just makes it so that the moment you get infamous six people come and, if you had your way, would immediately be able to kill you no questions asked.


    Yes, I spent time working on a system to make me an escape artist. Do you want to penalise pvpers for desiyning their systems to actually aid them at fighting? No, I've never been close to immortal and if you had any idea what you were talking about or had bothered to read my last message: I die all the time. To singular people. Single, good, players yes. Sometimes I die to two or three average ones. It happens. Occasionally I'll get away from situations like that too. As it is, if they make the wrong moves then they can't keep you there. If you attack someone who is using a shield tattoo, surprise surprise it won't go through

  • KogKog

    My last complaint is still that I need rewear triggers and I can't do that on my phone with any sort of reliability. Hell, my net went out last night and I came back 20 minutes later via my phone and I was still 'active'. Short timeout with a keepalive fixes that, but again not while playing via phone on any of the available phone clients, and Nexus disconnects me after a few seconds if I try to use that.

  • AshleiAshlei

    I do like the idea of selfishness/generosity being hidden from other players as it is a little immersive breaking to see constantly.

    I don't believe that removing thieves from the game would be a good move. There is already enough feeling of security when exploring Achaea even for a new character like myself. Having thieves out there makes you remain aware, and based on what I've seen there's enough mindless players about as it is.


    Perhaps create a skill in vision that allows people to toggle the ability to see someone use selfishness/generosity. This way all non thieves could have it naturally gagged if they wish?

  • KoganKogan
    edited July 2021

    @Ashlei Why is a feeling of security on items a bad thing when it comes to a game where $ = credits = gold? Especially when many could already consider credits unreasonably priced. I can’t fathom making a super cool world and then continuing to hold on to the idea that the right call is to keep a system that results in less people wanting to explore it.

    I get you are new and may or may not have experienced theft at all but people have lost an unreasonable amount of things to theft before. People have and will continue to quit over theft.

    Having theft makes you remain more aware of what exactly? And is this something a positive for more than 2-3 thieves who usually lack the control or empathy to not spam theft 24/7 just because they know the risk is nonexistent compared to potential rewards? Does it increase or decrease the amount of meaningful RP in Achaea?

    As it stands theft can and still will be used to harass individuals. Why stricter theft attempt limits weren’t put in place to prevent that is beyond me but I’m not shocked considering all the other harassment I’ve seen ignored. The entire theft system is toxic towards everyone but the thief. I don’t know why degenerate behavior is acceptable or allowed to begin with. Much less in a community so small.

  • CaladbolgCaladbolg Campbell County TN

    ...Is there even a thief in game atm other than Elyon?

    Pickpocketing sucks.. serpent is the only class that can even steal now and it's mostly just here to piss off and hamper new players to the game since most of these 18-21 year olds are just alts.


    I don't see why you guys are trying to keep it going, No one has even tried to rob me since before the Bal'met stuff.

  • KoganKogan
    edited July 2021

    So you don’t see why we’d keep it going when just last week someone quit the game over theft? Or maybe keep it going because these changes did nothing to address the problem of risk:reward. Using your own words.. If pickpocketing sucks and it’s primar use to piss off any subset of players then why is it worth keeping and why isn’t it worth talking about still?

  • TahquilTahquil

    I don't mind theft as an idea but spending having it potentially hit you in the RL wallet sucks. My only suggestion would be to extend theft protection against things made non-decay as the person may have spent RL money to do so.

  • FairweatherFairweather

    @Caladbolg Yeah, the guy who cleaned me out was not Elyon.

    Gave up the classless bash-o-thon at 89(10%)

  • ElyonElyon

    @Tahquil the only way it can hit you is in the rl wallet is if you switch your credits to gold and then keep them on your character.


    Non decay stuff is nearly impossible to steal as is and there's a resetting function that you can use to literally prevent that stuff being stolen already


    If you're old enough to have a debit card and money you should be able to understand the concepts illustrated in help theft enough to not leave gold out of your bank etc

  • TreyalTreyal

    "you can just spend more money to not let thieves steal your stuff!"

  • OgnogOgnog

    Elyon wrote:

    Non decay stuff is nearly impossible to steal as is and there's a resetting function that you can use to literally prevent that stuff being stolen already

    Clearly people have had non decay items of sentimental value stolen, and they probably didn't want those items to keep returning to inventory from where they had them on display. Everyone has their own viewpoint on what level of loss through theft crosses the boundary between "I lost today but I'll have better luck tomorrow" and "I just don't want to play this any more". For some, it has even crossed the boundary into "I've just been robbed of hundreds of US dollars" territory. To me, a level of theft that leaves a player feeling like they can't bounce back is an unacceptable game consequence.

    If you're old enough to have a debit card and money you should be able to understand the concepts illustrated in help theft enough to not leave gold out of your bank etc

    That is of little comfort to the character who loses 10 million gold while on the way to buy the war galley they've been saving for a century for.


  • ElyonElyon

    @Treyal you must be new here, money solves every problem in the world. Starving? Money. Ill? Money. Whining about a text based thief? Money

    @Ognog yes. In the past I'm sure before the theft changes before last it may have been possible but with the advent of casing I find it exceptionally unlikely that say more than two peoppe ever had this happen

    Re: the galley, are you aware of how long it would take to pickpocket ten million gold off of someone? I'm going to throw it out there that this is a hypothetical circumstance that you just thought may cause an issue because the practicality of it is ridiculous

  • SobriquetSobriquet

    If the penalty for dying was increased in any way at all the only thing jt would result in is more issues.


    It's fine as is, IMHO.


    (Party): Mezghar says, "Stop."
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