Much steal. Very hide. Wow.

Zbaco

Don't really have a dog in this fight at the moment, but thought I should point out that we did receive an admin response when this conversation was still in the "What happened to you today?" thread, so the obvious solution would be to move it back there until we get another response...right??

Fairweather

Everybody just mentions the lack of admin input in the thieving thread as what happened to them, brilliant.

Saonji

@Thaisen It was Hashan you robbed, filthy thief.

Thaisen

i robbed both

Saonji

Can nobody stop this mad man.

Wait nevermind admin changed it so he can't do that anymore. Almost as if they are actually capable of changing systems based on player feedback or something.

Spooky.

Profit

Profit why are you so scared of an admin response?

In what way have I indicated I am scared of an admin response?

I've just told people to stop acting like they're entitled to one and, you know, maybe consider the idea that if there hasn't been a response yet then the response that has stood for ~25 years still stands.

I'm getting really tired of people telling me what my motivations and feelings are in these discussions.

Namino

We can't just assume because something has gone unchanged means that it will never be changed and not bother drawing attention/asking for a response. That's ridiculous. There are plenty of legacy systems in this game that have been updated, improved, or removed after players drew attention to how they were negatively impacting the experience.

If the admin have read this thread and do not think theft is a problem, they should say so. I think most people here would like to hear them say that. :)

Treyal

i mean half the time they're just quoting things you said though

Ognog

If anyone expects immediate action from the admin on any of this, they're kidding themselves. I think most of us realise that issues such as this require careful consideration and planning and that the admin won't publicly weigh into the debate. Probably they don't want to give fuel to the feeding frenzy that is this thread by commenting at all, although a simple "Hi, we are listening" wouldn't go astray.

Lots of interesting ideas have been put out there, but they all have hairs attached including potential unforeseen knock on effects or implementation complications. The admin and coders do an amazing job of making sure that a dozen other things don't break with every change that they make, and no doubt they will be determined to keep that good record with any potential changes to theft mechanics.

Profit

If the admin have read this thread and do not think theft is a problem, they should say so. I think most people here would like to hear them say that. :)

I think the 'most people' you're talking about, yourself included, would love to hear that so that they can use it as permission to browbeat the admin for making what they consider to be the 'wrong decision.'

I don't blame them for not granting you that.

Accipiter

People are entitled to admin feedback though. It is a customer service issue and should be addressed.

Kogan

Profit:

I'm getting really tired of people telling me what my motivations and feelings are in these discussions.

Also Profit:

I think the 'most people' you're talking about, yourself included, would love to hear that so that they can use it as permission to browbeat the admin for making what they consider to be the 'wrong decision.'

lol.

Profit

You know what, that's fair.

Edit: To my credit, though, I did phrase it as an 'I think...' rather than a 'you are.' Not that it's any better but I'm positing a potential reaction rather than stating an assumed reaction. I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

Saonji

Sounds like Profit's never worked in a customer service role, since that's exactly what the producers of Achaea are.

Newsflash. Customers are indeed, "entitled" to a response, when they have issues or problems regarding your product. It's literally part of the job description. Using the excuse of "Well what if they react negatively to my response!" as a reason for not giving a response, is how you get fired from your job, since you're clearly not cut out for customer service.

Literally look at the, "Don't you guys have phones?" guy for a stellar example. Admin could literally give that kind of response, and it'd still be a response which they then wouldn't have to give anything further.

Amranu

We all know what their answer is, we can stop pretending we don't. Any response that isn't agreeing with the rabid delete theft crowd is going to be met with exactly the reaction that Profit pointed out, let's be honest.

Accipiter

The fuck thread have you people been reading? Because there is no rabid delete theft crowd in this one, there are people having a civil discussion and offering a multitude of solutions that involve limiting theft and a couple of rabid thieves who are against the idea that the admin might consider any changes. Get your head out of your ass.

Thaisen

Not really....there was outrage over the removal of WALKTO until there was a calm rational response explaining the reasoning.

I am looking forward to hearing the calm rational response explaining why it is okay to steal $100's in promotional items.

Aodfionn

@Cooper I didn't see anyone else mention your idea, but -

1. Love love love the idea of being able to perhaps steal organizational gold or some such thing from other orgs through robbing its members similar to the way that the pickpocket mechanic works (worked? it's been years) on denizens
2. Anything that makes IG channels less secure via class-based spying would have a ton of pitfalls. Even if you limit it to a 'Thieves Guild' where all the members are just open PK, there are concerns around big issues. The absolute first thing I would do as HL in this scenario would be to buy a clan for the house and mandate that any house business be discussed there instead, and I don't think I'd be alone in looking for a surefire workaround.
3. There's still the issue of the 'opt-in' nature of it, and still the question of 'how can I respond to this thief at least remotely in-kind,' and I'm not sure of any real way for a house to be able to do that in any meaningful way. I dunno, maybe I'm misunderstanding it, but I'm open to hearing more about anything Thieves Guild-y

Sheverad

So many people have voiced their concern with the moderation of theft, a handful just yelled delete, and you get people coming back making statements about the latter when the majority is looking for the former, and have actually offered lots of ideas that you all firm defenders flew over and didn't criticize, just raged against asking deletion instead.

And yes, as a customer, it should get people crazy learning that they can buy something they thought is theirs to do whatever they want to with (as with artefacts/credits), like sell or gift or destroy or hoard, and learn that there are only very specific ways to own these things without losing them to theft, which is mentioned nowhere in the THEFT, PROMO, CREDITS, or related scrolls.

And all that given the response admins gave to a customer that lost everything without being aware of what protects you? Is that something you really want as a customer? Are people so fanatics that they cannot see this for the problem that it is and why people are asking for some feedback from that side?

Accipiter

If theft is only possible with pickpocket now, can we at least get selfishness changed so you don't have to take it down every time you want to give something away then? Is there still a reason to have it stop give when that isn't forceable except to discourage people from using it?

Cooper

@Aodfionn - sorry for the post formatting, I'm done fighting the forums to make posts look decent.

2 - This would be solved by enforcing that all organization clans are actually owned by the organization. I think there's also an unspoken and loosely enforced rule that a city/house/order can't force anyone to be in a clan if it isn't org-owned. Party history could be added pretty easily.

3 - the idea is that cities would develop spying/theft programs as it would be beneficial for your citizens to reveal the least amount of intel and because seeing channel and log history is truly useful information. Even if players have the expected response of taking most secret conversations to in person conversations that is a positive thing IMO. Forcing people to have meetings in person, house halls, order halls, city chambers, will increase the break in and spying risks. Those are usually the more interesting and fun RP situations.

Thanks for the response, I thought more than two people would see that post 😥

Elyon

@Accipiter it's entirely a delete theft crowd since the vast majority of suggestions are ill thought out to the point that it would make theft simply not worth the hassle, essentially neutralising it by making it even more difficult than it is now.

@whoever said about it being ok to steal promotional items- there's literally a disclaimer saying that the items are in game and stuff will happen to them. Read the small print before you buy a product else you might find that someone's left a turd in your punchbowl.

Also for crying out loud how are you spending hundreds of dollars on this game and are still unable to defend against that?

This being said, you can't pickpocket promotional items anymore so it's kind of a moot point since admin addressed the "problem"

Anyway whatever. Last post I'll make here for a bit since it's kinda boosting my ego too much getting a 15 page thread about me and all. Keep on not using the defences provided to you if you like. I'll be sure to ask for voyria nerfs whenever I step on a caltrop and can't be bothered to buy elixirs .

If you guys can keep this going to 50 pages I want it stickied

Zulah

Everything you buy with your money can be lost many ways in Achaea. You can be shrubbed, the world could shut down tomorrow.

Theft in a fantasy setting is reasonable.

Theft in Achaea can occasionally cause unreasonable suffering. Much like a grand theft of your character would.

Death in Achaea means nothing. Even less than it used to. Thus the thief of Achaea gains 90% of the pros from thievery, and suffers 10% of the cons. Make 3 deaths perm death if you steal and I suspect the issue would sort itself out quickly.

Nicola

Okay folks, we have read most of this thread and for the sake of visibility of response I am closing this thread. We have opened a new one with our response and you can post there.

https://forums.achaea.com/discussion/7644/theft-updates/p1