Much steal. Very hide. Wow.

Saonji

Since Ictinus said to start a new thread, after the very thrilling and exciting discussion that happened in the WHTYT thread. Let's continue said amazing conversations.

Theft is garbage. Discuss.

Archaeon

ur garbage

Saonji

Thank you for your valuable input. I love you, too.

What is the worst thing in this game, and why is it promos theft?

Adrik

Shit happens IRL.

Your character should not get punished by someone stealing something that is a priceless item that holds significant historical value to you because your dog decided to start vomiting on the floor.

If my dog did that during PK and I had to stop, I would die. 0.3% of my level, if that, is nothing compared to "This old item that a friend from 10 years ago gave me that is now dead IRL or has stopped logging in entirely. It's nondecay, but I was unable to afford to get it to being returning yet."

or the lovely case, that I really hope was changed.

"Hey, I know you just opened globes and had a ton of legenddeck cards in your inventory. While you were away, I stole 30 legenddeck cards from you (over 1000cr value). If you want them back, you can pay me half that value to me. Or I can just sell them. Yes, I know you just spent IRL money on them. No. I don't give a fuck."

The amount of ways that thieves can get away compounds onto this issue, because while it does feel nice to actually kill a thief, it doesn't actually do anything to solve the problem. It requires multiple players to form a damn coalition to immediately blitz the thief the second they leave their place of hiding. They'll need to either hinder immediately to stop escape (Druid works for this due to prone+entangle), have room hinder to stop instant duanathar/urn, or have hamstring (Stop icewall into evade past into disappearing act).

Certain thieves have Wand of Reflections, which is effectively a Get Out of Jail Free card every hour, they might take up branch to avoid damage, urn mounts.. etc. Heck, I know some even have a trigger with a list of "If X enters adjacent, leave." the second that a huge list of people that have attacked them in the past. Or.. god forbid.

A certain thief who hires on people for attacking him because they weren't mark.. or hires for when their urn mount is killed post murder of them.

tl;dr: Theft is shit, and there is nothing that anyone says that will change my mind on why it's a bad mechanic.

Dominius

Proposal. I know this would require a LOT. But wouldn't it be nice if items stolen were returned to you on death of the thief by you or the mark you hired? It'd be a start at least.

Sobriquet

I believe they do via chits with fences? I might be wrong though, I've never really had to deal with it.

Amranu

Yeah you can get your stuff back stolen from pickpocket via the fence system. You just need to bid for it. If it's priceless, you'll pay a lot.

You can't pickpocket promo items from someone's inventory @Adrik. The recent theft of those items from someone had to do with the person putting them in a container that they left sitting around their house.

Adrik

@Amranu I was not mentioning recently. In the past someone had it happen to them.

Synthus

Forgive me for being a bit scattershot and long-winded, but I'm going to sort of lay everything on the table that's been going through my mind on the subject.

Theft is one of those mechanics that, in my opinion, negatively impacts the Quality of Life of the game as a whole. I will not make a blanket statement like "there have never been any good interactions that have come from theft", but the majority of interactions have absolutely been negative. Some so much so that some players have even quit the game after having their personal inventories, home inventories, or shop inventories cleaned out by a thief.

Theft detracts from a large number of the player's experience with the game, while only adding to a handful of players. A common argument I see for theft is "Well, it adds conflict!" That would be true if theft targeted only persons that have opted in to seeking that conflict or open PK persons. As it is, persons that have not opted in have the chance of getting hit anytime they leave the relative safety of a guard stack in a city, a ship, or a safe room elsewhere.

"Well, if you just have selfishness up" / "If you had your antitheft on" / "Your city should have antitheft scrolls to help you" are another set of arguments I've heard, and to be honest, these are the most disheartening and concerning of the bunch. This is essentially victim blaming at its finest, saying that the thief was only able to get away with this because YOU didn't do something right. It's an abhorrent mentality to have for a game where almost every other avenue of conflict is opt-in.

There is almost no meaningful recourse for non-combatant victims of theft, other than to hope they can win an auction to get their item back from the fence. This means that now not only are they the victim of the thief, they are the victim of anyone with a large sum of disposable gold that -really- wants that item that was stolen. As has been previously mentioned, what if this is an item that has a sentimental value to you and is irreplaceable? Even if you spend every last gold piece you have, there's still the chance you lose that Maldaathi Scabbard or Sash of the Crystalline Basilica because someone else simply had more gold than you when it came up to auction.

Should it have been resetting if it meant that much? Sure, you can make that argument. Should you have to fork out thousands of credits to make every item with sentimental value resetting just because a griefer can snap their fingers and take it from you or pickpocket it off you? No, no you absolutely should not have to.

Finally, and this is more a minor personal gripe about the entire thing. There are so many places out in the world that, as a player more interested in the lore, I would absolutely love to hang around while semi-idle to provoke potential roleplay possibilities. The problem with this, is that as soon as I start getting toward the top of the WHO list for being idle, I'm almost 100% guaranteed to be targeted by a thief thinking I'm completely AFK. This has ruined events before, this has ruined moments of peace where I'm studying something in a room, and it has very frequently elicited a groan and a roll of the eyes from me as a player when I realize that for the next ten minutes, my gameplay is either going to consist of sitting on a guard stack or my ship until the thief moves on to an easier target. It's stupid, it's asinine, and it's aggravating.

TL;DR: Delete theft. It has not, and will never, add the depth that other avenues do. It actively does more harm to the game and gives a very, very small subset of players the ability to grief the rest of the player base with little to no repercussions for them or viable routes of resolution for the victims.

Treyal

Unsurprisingly, in his attempt to defend it, Elyon provided the very best argument against theft as a mechanic in its current form.

actually employing antitheft. teaching your citymembers how to avoid thieves. I teach people all the damn time, I fail to see why everyone else, knowing full well thievery exists, either ignore the whole antitheft business that can stop me in my tracks or just dont tell their novices about it.

The entire mechanic of theft absolutely requires someone to use triggers. It makes the game inaccessible to anyone who does not have a system, because there is absolutely zero way to play this game and opt out of being stolen from. Keeping up selfishness is not sufficient to stop a thief. Even if it was, why should that be acceptable? Nothing else in the game requires you to constantly be alert just to exist. Someone can't come and PK you just because you forgot to leave up a defense.

Greys

Also, ultimately, the cost of dying to most people is far less than any gold being stolen. I mean if Greys dies, I have my RESPAWNING IN # countdown telling me how long to I have take a break from the game.

Big Papa Jomi

Hey @Greys can I get that respawn countdown?

Back on topic, theft sucks. It was probably made to start conflict and be a way to make Achaea seem like a living, breathing, and dangerous world, but it’s a game. The amount of people it affects negatively is not proportionate to the amount of people it affects positively.

Elyon

you all suck

Archaeon

The entire mechanic of theft absolutely requires someone to use triggers.

nah.

CURING PRIORITY DEFENSE SELFISHNESS 25.

Treyal

Keeping up selfishness is not sufficient to stop a thief.

Maybe I'm wrong? Honestly, it's been ages since I've been meaningfully stolen from, but I'm pretty sure it's possible to get you to give away your pack or something else before you can get selfishness back up, if you don't have rewearing triggers and the like?

Elyon

oh wow way to go you've proven it is possible to have an opinion on something you know nothing about.

Elyon

oh actually also Adrik has no idea what he's talking about either lol

Amranu

A couple of triggers is not a 'system'

A thief cannot get your pack if you have a simple rewear trigger.

Davok

Nerf all escapes.

Fairweather

@Amranu A thief cannot get your pack if theft was taken out of the game.

Cerelia

I want to share the perspective of a long-dormant player just returning to the game, since I have not seen it raised yet in the current discussion, and it seems to me rather important, also.

For context, Cerelia was a Squire in the House of the Templars in Shallam, when I went dormant. Because, as I understand it, Shallam was hit with the Achaean equivalent of a nuclear bomb sometime afterward, I very recently awoke to being both Houseless and Cityless, through no fault of my own. Naturally, I set out to acquire an entirely new set of curatives and equipment, and I found that I had, luckily, retained a smallish but sufficient amount of gold in my inventory to do this.

Elyon snapped me at Vinci's Tattoo Emporium in Delos, while I was trying to figure out the syntax to purchase the tattoo I wanted on a specific body part.

If I had not also been fortunate enough to remember on my own that (a) selfishness was a thing, from being saved in my list of aliases, and (b) being snapped is not a good sign at all, and I should run immediately, he would have, most likely, successfully stolen the gold I was counting on to get back going. There is no doubt in my mind that would have been sufficient incentive for me to immediately quit again.

As far as I understand it, all other potential avenues of conflict in Achaea take place within some minimum framework where one always has the initial choice to opt-in, and in which participants are subject to broadly similar levels of potential consequence: whether raiding or defending a city; joining the army and being called upon to engage in formally declared hostilities; Order conflict and crusades; the Marks and Dauntless, etcetera. These structures are formally encoded (whether actually hardcoded or by administrative rules) into Achaea because it is a game, and players in a game require a certain amount of agency and opportunity for potentially equivalent retaliation against their opponents to be able to enjoy it.

Theft stands out as the only so-called "conflict" avenue that escapes these kinds of restrictions leveling the playing field between opposing parties. You cannot opt-in to being open to theft; you can only opt-out by either sitting on guard stacks, a ship, or simply not playing the game altogether. At best, the consequences for a thief are to be killed and lose a small amount of meaningless experience; whereas the victim might very well leave the game entirely.

And how ludicrous is it to pretend that "content" arising from theft is more often meaningful than not when, as Elyon himself admitted, he often ends up teaching people antitheft and avoiding theft? Seriously, if my first substantial interaction is being instructed on how to set up aliases and triggers by someone whose character has just committed the unpleasant and potentially unexpected act of aggression against mine these aliases and triggers are needed to prevent, I am not going to come away with the impression that Achaea is a deep, rich, immersive world with a smaller, tighter, and friendlier community (as quoted directory from the achaea.com frontpage) worth investing in, I am going to think that Achaea is a game designed to permit and even explicitly cater to griefers (and that, moreover, there is a substantial and vocal subset of Achaeans who continue to support and defend these griefers), and my time is far better spent doing something else.

Rather than having to waste countless hours of House and City time educating new and returning adventurers on the mechanics of a system that benefits a select few who desire to engage in legitimized griefing, delete theft and free those resources to be devoted elsewhere, on activities that will be far more meaningful to players' characters and experiences.

Sobriquet

A few people have idea'd giving returning players a grace period for theft.

Accipiter

The only beneficial role play theft has ever had is org related, ie theft of letters/journals that have important communications in them or stealing from shops or estates. I have never heard of a personal theft that has interesting RP elements. It is always done by people who think that their RP is more important than anyone else’s.

Taryius

Having a system that relies on the one profiting to actively choose to engage in RP or not too is never going to play out well in the long run. Yes, you can have great thieves that use it to generate content, or you can have thieves that just don't care, or decide to be a jerk for whatever reason they can.

The biggest issue with theft is that you can not opt out of it, if PK isn't a deterrent or something you are interested in doing then a thief can just attempt to steal on repeat and the onus is on you to save yourself. The burden entirely falls on the victim and the thief can choose their targets with complete control to avoid any real threat.

It would make sense to only be able to pickpocket infamous people, such is the price of infamy. If you did that alongside fledging out the infamy system a bit more (profitable bashing areas that generate infamy, or quests that generate infamy, bidding on stolen items at fences gave infamy, or a million other ideas, etc etc.) then people could opt into this facet of the game and those that didn't want to don't feel like walking away from guards or exploring the world is putting themselves at risk.

Treyal

Honestly, let thieves steal letters and journals. That's interesting. That generates RP and actual meaningful conflict, and presuming that for some bizarre reason you don't just have zero copy of your writings, it's not that big of a deal - it just means that whatever you've written down is no longer secret or secure, which is interesting.

IDK how anyone can argue with a straight face that stealing other things does any of that, especially when people like Elyon admit that they steal from people as a punishment for perceived slights.

It's the sole unregulated griefing mechanic in the game. 90% of the people pointing this out aren't even the people being robbed, so it's not like we're salty about losing things, it's just frustrating because it is clearly and obviously detrimental to bringing in new players, or having players return.

Accipiter

I love the idea of theft being infamous only and it is the best solution to it I have ever heard that didn't involve removing it entirely.

Fairweather

Not to sound like, super "oh woe is me" about it, because I realize how it will sound, but I initiated character retirement immediately after my interaction with the dude who took whatever hadn't decayed off of me.

Theft in Achaea has existed for a very long time, the administration of the game has decided it's important enough to the game to remain intact in its current state, and I don't want to play that kind of game. It isn't high stakes, or "a living breathing world" - it's bad game design, it's been discussed for ages as being bad game design, and it's pretty telling that some of the posts in here would serve to help bring it more in line with modern conflict systems in Achaea but nothing is going to come of any of this discussion.

Dominius

No one has raised the point that poor Elyon, among others, would likely quit playing if he cannot thieve. Who says making Achaea fun for people who enjoy playing an asshole character should not be considered?

Namino

https://gfycat.com/whoppingnaturalgardensnake

Basically

Sheverad

Theft isn't the only activity that gives free reign to assholes, really.

Just this character right here, what, 5-6 years ago, can't even remember, maybe more, maybe less... Not even level 30, just out of newbie zone exploring Actar, standing around Biba giving rabbits or waiting for Tobold to give him his pipe. A Shallamese Priest back then, Avianca, comes in the room, I'm doing nothing just checking some scrolls, newbie that I am. Priest kills me, no RP nothing, I remember it clear as day. I ask why, no response from the player. Both Mhaldor and Shallam send me tells asking me what happened, given that I was still a novice and not permitted to do combat, I say "nothing whatsoever". They both tell me they asked the player and the player replied (to them but never me) that I swore at them or said Evil (tm) things so they had to kill me, or sth like that. I read all the related scrolls, sent my Issue telling them they can check the logs to see I did basically nothing and there was no RP reason involved and that the player is lying - the reply was a few lines saying "seek IC means to solve this". Yeah right, newbie, no idea, no money back then, city thinks I'm lying, Shallam thinks I'm lying, Avianca probably roleplaying a psychopath or lying just to get some free kill counts... What am I to do really as a player?

Left the game for several years, didn't find it in my heart to play a "Heavy immersive RP-enforcing game" like Achaea. Point is that guess what, theft is this on steroids, with worse results for more people.

Being an asshole is still the problem, and there's still no remedies to be found in the mechanisms provided by the game against theft. I had an alt joining a city/house some time ago, being around Delos, trying to decide class and train, and reading scrolls I have to for advancement. Same thief, 7 times, one day (Achaean month). Didn't even know how to make a trigger back then, and can't remember if there was even serverside curing? Selfishness gone once, that was it.

It's a bad, flawed system, that can be abused to grief, is actually being abused, offers roleplay only to less than a handful of people, causes new or even old players to abandon the game, and makes you rethink how RP-focused Achaea really is with all that shit going on.

Elyon

tbf dude who does nothing plus namino who always does nothing or pvps plusmudsex dude isnt really equalling a valid point but ok