Much steal. Very hide. Wow.

Saonji

It must be fun being a sociopath.

Namino

Once again,, ad hominin with the added bonus of also just being nonfactual.

Also odd that you ascribe to the philosophy that people who engage in intimate rp are deserving of criticism for that, which speaks of some deep seated, incel adjacent psychological issues. Overall, D-, see me after class.

And regardless as to whatever personal flaws I may have, the fact remains that theft, particularly as you exercise it, is a major hamstring to the average level of enjoyment of the game.

Ditch it. If we lose the Elyons of the game then my heart will ache for their passing but that's a sacrifice I will burden my spiritual shoulders with for the greater good.

Smile.

Treyal

I mean, I'll accept critiques on my form, he's certainly been sitting there watching me often enough.

Saonji

"Wow this is so gross."

Quotes man sitting watching someone for hours.

Kog

I tried to post a picture but now my computer won't stop talking in Latin. So here, a rough ASCII drawing of what I was going to post instead:

       @@
    @@@@@@@@
  @@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@Don't Feed@@@
 @@The Trolls@@
  @@@@@@@@@@@@
    @@@@@@@@
       @@
       #
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       #

Draqoom

Let's increase the severity of theft and the ways in which you can steal.

It's time for identity theft in Achaea. I believe in you, Elyon

Argwin

To me the biggest, most valid argument against theft is that it's not opt-in. Every time the question of pvp has come up that I've seen at some point the admin types respond that it's almost entirely opt-in. As an example, I shout some mildly insulting things about Mezghar, I then spend several days running away from his attempts to kill me. It's somewhat annoying, but I INITIATED IT. I opted in to the conflict by doing something to intentionally offend him. Theft is not opt-in at all. Anyone, anywhere, at any time can be a target of theft. In a city, out of a city, on guards, it doesn't matter. A new thief (or a new alt) that hasn't been enemied yet could pickpocket on a guard stack and run away unharmed. Heck, I made a serpent alt once and in less than a day had enough lessons in to pickpocket and got a sigil off someone in Delos. I could have stood there and gotten more too because they were afk.

tl;dr - there needs to be a mechanism to opt in / opt out of being a theft target. Someone mentioned needing to be Infamous to be stolen from. Maybe certain areas are considered high-risk areas, like a theft version of treacherous planes, I don't know, but something should be done to define 'opting in' to theft.

Gallida

They had that with the signet ring bug that got fixed.

Atalkez

I could retire tomorrow and have accomplished more in this game than you would in the next decade. Sit down.

Accipiter

Assertion: Theft is only done by assholes

Refutation: Theft is also done by Elyon who isn't an asshole

Proof: Elyon came into this thread being an asshole

🙄

Treyal

^ before these two threads I hadn't been sure if it was just the character...

Gallida

Also, I cannot believe that adding new ways to avoid all but the most coordinated of gank squads would backfire when combined with the simplification of IC motivations to "Well, as long as I'm winning, anything goes".

Neither theft nor Elyon are the problem. They're symptoms.

Elyon

@Namino non factual? you stitched your own mouth up so that you dont have to contribute to the game in ways that aren't pvp. All you do is PVP and moan on discord. Prove me wrong. Write some poetry.

@Draqoom Identity theft coming soon.

Saonji

That isn't why he did it at all, though.

Ognog

I still remember the first experience my character had as the victim of a thief more than a decade ago. It was intense. My heart was racing and I was in a state of panic. When I saw what I'd lost, I left the realms in disgust. After I'd calmed down, I returned.

Achaea shouldn't feel safe. I don't want it to feel safe. There should be espionage, theft, intrigue, murder and mayhem.

That being said, there have to be limits on the scale of loss a theft can incur, and the level of grief it can bring. The gold in your pack, sigils, vials, up to a certain amount of riftables, all readily replaceable should be fair game. The items that concern me the most are the irreplaceable ones. Journals, manuscripts, scrolls and letters are particularly problematic due to the effort that may have gone into them. Maybe being able to read them for a few hours should be enough reward for a thief. Having to bid for such irreplaceable items in the FENCE system may result in an excessive reward for a thief, and excessive grief for the victim.

Namino

Oh shit, nobody told me I had to make my arguments in poem form.

In a virtual land of make-believe

Where knights are proud, and alchemists reave

There birthed a grim and pressing plight

A serpent claiming it was a given right:

All others must suffer his desire to thieve.

His claims were vast yet paltry small

Words often dripping with vitriolic gall

False equivalency and ad hominem

Lies and slander: a raucous din

Bad faith arguments, one and all.

Claiming victims could get their recompense

While striving e'er to avoid consequence

The toil was long, the work was vile

His poisoned words were lacking guile

Nor the slightest hint of common sense.

Across from him then rose the protest

From observers of his actions grotesque

Wondered they: what risk had theft

When compared to victims left bereft

In danger: the thief vanishes without a test

And even should retribution arrive there

Small justices in the face of losses compare

The thief fleeing often with kingly prizes

Baubles, and trinkets of historical sizes

Death's impulse too weak to make a thief foreswear

And though the thief sneeringly bleated

It matters not: it must be repeated

An unbalanced, poor and miserable blight

New players in droves taking flight

Player Theft ought to be deleted.

Elyon

I mean good poem but quite unrealistic. I'll let you have artistic license on it, though.

Newsboard it please.

Archaeon

this is a good thread.

Elyon

yeah its actually generated some creativity so I kinda welcome it

Ipomoea

My character was pickpocketed when I was much newer to the game. I had set up anti-theft triggers so my character re-wore her backpack and restored selfishness when it was removed, so I felt comfortable tending to minor real-world things while she was in her grove. Unbeknownst to me, experimenting with the OUTFIT command had removed her backpack, and Profit stole it. I knew this was entirely my fault, and Profit was kind enough to return some of the coins so that she wasn't destitute, but that moment of total loss felt so bad that I immediately logged out for the night. The next time I logged in was three or four real months later, at the urging of a real-life friend who also plays the game. If not for her, I would not have returned.

Even now, better informed and wise to the dangers of the WEAR X OUTFIT ONLY command, there is much about thieving that I really dislike. I don't like how my character can keep her coins in a bank, but there are no safe places for items, except through the use of a legend card. I don't like that I can't tell what was pick-pocketed and must rely on the thief's magnanimity and honesty to find out. I don't like how the casing mechanics are obscured, with no way to tell how many times my character was cased, or how long it takes to expire, or even to see when a thief has cased her without learning a high-investment, mana-draining skill, and upkeeping it at all times. I don't like that the only way to actively combat casing is to successfully kill the thief, whose identity is not revealed even with the vigilance skill, because you only get the warning when the casing attempt is complete, not when it begins. I really don't like how the Delos fence sits on a river with a strong current, especially since you can't even browse the FENCE commands unless your character is in his room. I don't like how much of a hassle the selfishness ability adds to playing the game, or how easy it is for a thief to pick-pocket my character even if she maintains it with triggers. Mostly, I don't like how every aspect of this system is designed to make the target player feel ignorant, foolish, and powerless, rather than giving them the chance to role-play those feelings through their character.

Elyon

Ok. The legenddeck kesh card ISN'T 100 percent safe. Severian is better. He nerfs people mind controlling you

Casing will show up when you are cased. Highlight it. It goes down once per rl day or if you or your mark kills the thief.

Banded chests etc or locked, safe housing, shops are also good starts.

Delos fence is a nuisance, yes.

Trigger WHO HERE on case messages and you should have a good idea.

I mean , if you think all this stuff is bad try actually being a thief. Most decent thieves will have spent weeks, months, whatever honing their system. In Profit's case it is probably years. Ain't as easy as some people here seem to think.

Accipiter

If you don't have a trigger to lose balance or move or something on snap, selfishness can be 100% bypassed by sealing for 5s and using the command separator to send snap/pickpocket, so it is pretty useless to keep up anyway.

Sheverad

I feel that people should have the option to be a thief, it does fit in the RP and concept of Achaea. Thievery should be a part of it, as it can offer some type of meaningful interactions, and it can factor into the politics-heavy world. Thievery should be OK - but it's not. Why? Because it's not moderated, at all, and requires EXTERNAL systems (triggers) to prevent successfully.

What should not be possible is having 10 theft attempts by the same thief in one single day you get down to play. I cannot even believe this does not amount to griefing, especially if it's done while you're in between quests or training at a tutor, when other online games ban people disrupting your gameplay in such a manner.

What should not be possible is losing EVERYTHING you own that you haven't spent 100 credits (40$) to make reset to you. What should not be possible is having no means to know what was lost or a way to get it back (cause yes, there's nothing in the rules forcing them to give back things).

Just because you live in a country that has 40-45 degrees in summer and frequent blackouts throughout the day because they cannot sustain all those ACs open and you get disconnected (no triggers), you shouldn't lose everything you might have spend years gathering. Or because your mother called you to tell you your aunt, her sister, might have cancer and you weren't in the right frame of mind to QQ, or WALKTO CITY and find a Guard Stack, or put up Selfishness before inquiring what's going on (yes that's happened).

Realism in games is fine, to give meaningful depth to it. The way it's implemented/handled right now does virtually nothing towards this end and only detracts from any other "meaningful depths" this world may have.

I'm pretty sure just as one RL day can be one IG month for the sake of "Achaea is a game" and sacrificing realism, something can be done about the realism intended for theft, too.

There just doesn't seem to be any incentive to do so...

Elyon

there are already mechanics like that in place for theft of anything other than gold/sigils

losing EVERYTHING not resetting to you would take on average 6 hours per item if you were AFK, had no defences and were very unlucky.

the incentive to do so? Theft was overhauled a hundred times before, changing from it being possible for near anyone to take your stuff to now involving a fair amount of work on the thief's behalf compared to five minutes on the theftees behalf.

if I am able to take everything you have you're doing something horribly wrong. Try it. Be a thief. I'll teach you.

Offer is open to literally anyone.

Elyon

also @Accipiter this makes you immune to theft in some areas, it nearly triples the time taken to steal anything and severely hampers successful theft if used in conjunction with other antitheft methods

Greys

@Elyon You are bringing up the point that thieving is hard. However, noone is making the argument that it isn't (i.e. you saying to be able to thieve takes time to master is a straw man argument). The argument that was being made was that is that thieves have no meaningful risk/cost to their attempts at this point.

Thaisen

I think the fact that whenever we have these threads we see overwhelming distain for theft is proof enough that it is a garbage mechanic.

Saonji

@Thaisen Ahem. Allow me to do my best attempt at an Amranu impression.

"JuSt BeCaUsE eVeRyOnE hAtEs It DoEsN't MeAn It'S bAd."

Sobriquet

Theft adds absolutely nothing to the game other than frustration, resentment, bitterness and discouragement. Theft is totally one-sided and the only area of conflict in Achaea you can't opt out from. Sure, you can say it's a "Dangerous living world" and that is true, but for anything other than theft it's a conscious decision to put yourself (and your character) in that position. Doing an Elemental Lord quest is dangerous, hunting is dangerous, even more so if you go to UW. Being in the Army, raiding, bounty hunting, sailing.. the list goes on.

Theft is totally different and while there are many items within the game that can be obtained "free" through IC means, there is also the understanding that every single unbound credit in the game has been bought with RL money, which could be taken away by someone trying to steal from you on a loop, every day for a month until you let your guard done -once- and lose something valuable.

For Elyon to say "Try being a thief, it's not easy", that's... bullshit. I know, I've been one both on new and old theft mechanics. Scripting or waiting for targets is no different, and sometimes easier, than combat. Thieves are making literally 1000's credits from stealing (and isn't capped, unlike hunting), which in turn enables them to further remove themselves from repercussions due to be able to afford the gluttony of items the Administration have allowed into the game. For example, due to wings, anyone can be in a room your pursuers are unable to get to by simply saying a single word (Unless of course, they've also paid 2000cr or $580 at today's rates). WoR has already been mentioned, Ldeck cards, Talismans, Ship return.. not to mention Evade and Phase.

For a thief who has admitted to me making over 4000cr from theft, do you think dying a few times is any discouragement at all with that kind of return? There is a reason why, in 24yrs of Achaea being in existence, there is only one thief anyone remembers with any fondness, ol' 9 fingers himself.

The people behind thieves are no doubt decent people and I wouldn't for one moment suggest otherwise, but as characters they add nothing constructive to the game world at all, imho.

Amranu

"Sure, you can say it's a "Dangerous living world" and that is true, but for anything other than theft it's a conscious decision to put yourself (and your character) in that position."

This right here is why I don't think theft should be removed. It's essentially the only thing in the game preventing people from feeling completely 100% safe in nearly any area in the game. The world outside cities etc is meant to have a sense of danger, of feeling like you need to keep your wits about you. Removing theft will completely remove that from the game. I'm not a fan of that.