Much steal. Very hide. Wow.

Cerelia

@Kshavatra That is also fair. I did try to follow-up that particular part of my comment by explaining it was partially tongue-in-cheek and only meant half-seriously (clearly, I definitely need to append appropriate emojis or memes of some sort to communicate this next time! 😣), but I still appreciate your elaborating your thoughts on this further.

@Eurice Likewise, I also wanted to explicitly thank you for actually making the serious and good-faith effort (as opposed to what some others have unsurprisingly asserted, that nobody is here in good-faith) to really explain your position that "logging into Achaea is itself an implicit opt-in to being subject to all of the potentially available avenues of conflict"; I, for one, definitely appreciate where you are coming from much more clearly after that. ❤️

@Sheverad and @Accipiter already expressed my own, and what I think most people here's objections are to your point that, if you will permit me to summarize it concisely as such, "sh*tty things can happen to your character without consent at any time". Certainly this is true, but apart from theft, I honestly cannot think of any other example for which one either (a) had to previously "opt-in" to exposing themselves to the potential of such a sh*tty thing happening, or (b) has the option to pursue commensurate retributive consequences on those who perpetuated the sh*tty thing. (I vaguely seem to remember that when Cerelia was a little novice, the entire PK rules had to be completely overhauled and rewritten to what we have today, in order to provide adventurer combat with this kind of underlying structure.)

I do not believe that there is anyone who tries to engage in the Achaean world in good faith and does not also accept that "opting-in" to whatever potential avenues of conflict they choose risks things turning out for their character differently and possibly (far) more negatively than expected going in. To argue otherwise is simply a disgusting strawman.

Moreover, I sincerely agree that "spontaneous conflict vectors are Achaea's bread-and-butter". However, I (and similarly, the majority of opponents in this thread?) seriously question whether all such vectors are created equal. Again: considering how few thieves Achaea has in the first place, and how negative the outcomes and experience being forced to engage with them has been for such a large number and broad of people, compared to the positives, would deleting theft really be as deleterious to the game as I feel you seem to believe? I honestly cannot see removing theft starting Achaea on a slippery slope to deleting other forms of conflict from the game; as far as I can see, those of us who have a problem with theft do so because it exists outside the structures restricting all other types of conflict, and none of us have mentioned wanting to remove those other avenues for conflict at all.

It may be that we simply have to agree to disagree. (And this is perfectly fine with me, seeing as how we can reach this conclusion by reasonable and constructive dialogue -- even if only constructive in the sense that we understand each other better, and that we are both concerned about what is best for the game we all enjoy. That is important, too.)

Edit: as it was raised in the posts made while I was writing this -- I suppose I would ultimately be fine with a more moderated system for theft à la the current PK rules, where, importantly, the risk for and consequences to the thief is of broadly similar magnitude to those of their victims. I understand that arguing for theft to be removed entirely is more of an extreme position to hold, and I want to preemptively make it clear that I am also still open-minded about the possibility of finding a middle ground, even if it would not be my ideal solution. (c.f. "[people] screech[ing] and making threads over and over in an attempt to browbeat the admins into changing something they don't like" -- or is it people screeching at other people in attempt to browbeat them into keeping quiet about opinions they don't like to hear?).

Profit

I know I'm a lone voice, but there is a reason why I refuse to spend anything more than Elite on Achaea these days.

Listen, I know this is wildly off topic but what a limp protest.

This is like protesting Sports Illustrated by only having a base subscription and refusing to buy the swimsuit issue. Like, you're still giving the company a substantial amount of money and small amounts of recurring revenue are arguably more important to a business than large, infrequent purchases.

Kshavatra

>This is not a vocal minority against theft as it is implemented. It's a vocal minority against the existence of theft. Read more carefully what came before, please.

I read the whole thread and I have really only engaged with the people whose position I disagree with, eg Namino who talks about making threads until theft is deleted (at what point is no admin response a form of response, anyway?), or clearing up what I perceive to be misinformation/misunderstanding. I also suggested changes to cover valid corner cases (disconnects, newbies that aren't considered newbies on paper, etc), so you can infer that I don't take a hardline position that theft must not be changed at all.

I am ok with the current system because I've been on both sides and know how to prevent nearly all negative effects. I happily share this information with any and all that ask, but I also recognise that not everybody has that experience and confidence with theft mechanics. I can also accept that the burden of knowledge is unfairly large and could/should be lessened. One of the things I like least about this game is how undocumented most mechanics are, and how they can be changed without notification (though this is getting much better with changes/classleads news sections) so not only are the help files wrong, but the testing you've personally done a month ago might be totally irrelevant.

@Cerelia - I actually wrote that reply before I read your responses to Ognog and Accipiter, but by that point it was too late to edit and didn't seem worth an additional post to rescind it

Kogan

Lmao imagine legitimately saying you’re not sure if stealing and keeping $250 worth of promo stuff was ethical or not

Sobriquet

@Profit My comment about my financial support is that with Elite I know 100% what I am getting and 100% of what I pay for I get to use. The same can't be said for loot box promos, or anything that can be stolen from my character.

Profit

@Sobriquet Okay, that makes more sense, I rescind my incredulity. To be honest, I hate the concept of globes and spins and loot boxes and fully support anyone choosing not to buy them.

Sheverad

What you buy with your real life money on games is always property of the company offering these services and all you do with that is get the right to use that property as per the terms of use provided by the company. Nothing you buy actually belongs to you, the person, you only have rights to use it as a character inside the game.

And the rules of the game is that it can be stolen, and are in fact vague in this regard as to what can be stolen and under which circumstances. Exactly as Sobriquet says. And that's the core of the issue, really, in this case.

Sheverad

To be honest, I hate the concept of globes and spins and loot boxes and fully support anyone choosing not to buy them.

It's actually illegal to offer such purchases in several countries, such as Belgium, and huge companies have had to stop offering such purchases or totally make their game unavailable in such countries.

Otha

@Sobriquet @Argwin I don't disagree that this situation is shitty, I'm just asking what the solution is. Making promo items resetting and nontransferable seems pretty straightforward, but would have other detriments to the economy.

My entire point has been that all of the talk of Pickpocket stuff does not apply, nor do the proposed solutions. I have tried to propose various things, but neither of you have commented or proposed alternatives. Instead you attack the messenger.

Please propose an alternative if you don't like (1) special instance theft reversal and broad education or (2) hard-coded return mechanics, as proposed.

Argwin

I'm not attacking the messenger, I'm attacking a bad argument that multiple people have used (with some minor shade tossed towards the people using it). I also pointed out yesterday that the people saying that the novice theft prevention should be extended until they're able to embrace class were using faulty information too.

I'd be ok with theft being deleted but I also don't think it has to be deleted. I've argued multiple times for some kind of opt-in mechanism for theft, and several people have given some creative ideas to create that, including making theft limited to the same factors that make someone open-pk. (Infamous, mark, dauntless, etc) I also think there should be either something (I have no idea what) stopping a thief from clearing out a stockroom or house -or- a game mechanic way to get everything back, like some of the ideas brought up around the items resetting or dropping if the thief is killed.

Something new I'll add - I am OK with stockroom theft without an opt-in mechanic if, and only if, there were a way to limit how much is stolen. (someone mentioned an idea that only gold is stealable but items aren't. I like this idea) In my opinion, and it's just my opinion here, anyone can be prismed to at any time, so it makes sense that it can happen in a stockroom. As a city Chancellor I normally advocate for my shopkeepers, but we shouldn't be able to hide in our stockrooms either.

Iaxus

11 pages, 310 (311 now!) responses ignored by admin. We're on a roll.

Otha

'Theft' cannot really effectively be used to describe the full range of things in this thread, I suggest using Pickpocketing and Break-ins but I'm open to alternatives.

Are you suggesting that you have to opt-in for break-in theft now too, and/or that should be limited in certain instances (such as stockrooms)? All talk of opt-in up to this point was around pickpocketing (I thought).

Edit: Actually, you could just prevent force opening containers maybe? Not sure what impacts that would have. Wasn't Lyrin forced to open the chest?

Profit

11 pages, 310 (311 now!) responses ignored by admin. We're on a roll.

You aren't owed a response.

Just because the game is small and the admin are familiar doesn't mean they're required (or even have time) to communicate on every issue the playerbase has. This is especially true when people have complained about theft for 25 years and the administration has preserved it. They've already given you a response.

You're not asking for a response, you're asking for the response you want.

Argwin

@Otha That's a fair distinction between pickpocket and break-ins. Break-ins are particularly devastating because there's no limits to what can be taken. I've seen so many shops cleared out completely, to include mushrooming the sigils. While I specifically mentioned shops as being opt-in by nature of owning/leasing the shop there needs to be a mechanical limit to what can be stolen. I'm much more divided about housing. I'm not even sure how that could be made better.

Thaisen

Ahh yeah...and in all that time the mechanics of theft haven't changed at all....oh wait nevermind....it already got gutted...this time around we just need to bury the body.

Otha

@Argwin Yeah, the problem with the Lyrin case is that it is a stupidly specific one (edit: stupidly specific break-in case) that fixing would require substantial mechanics changes. I honestly don't know what the best solution is there. I have tossed out all I could now: one-time reversal and education (keep promo in inventory), resetting promo items, or prevent force open containers (which may break some other things but I don't think so).

Pickpocketing as a whole could be reworked, there have been tons of good ideas in here.

As for stockroom theft, if you want to change it (which I propose we don't), you could force a cooldown after picking up <x> items off the ground anywhere. Stockroom theft in large part works because the thief can bulid triggers to attempt to pick everything up off of 'ih', thus completing the theft even with someone beating on them potentially.

edit: Or provide a means for a shopkeeper to be able to know WHO robbed their stockroom, to at least allow some chance at RP recovery. It could even be made into an artefact/talisman, because why not. People already bought gems of reincarnation to steal from stockrooms originally (I did anyway, ~13 years ago).

Profit

Ahh yeah...and in all that time the mechanics of theft haven't changed at all....oh wait nevermind....it already got gutted...this time around we just need to bury the body.

I know you think you sound cool but you don't.

Also, theft was changed twice... at the behest of thieves. Tenebrus proposed and wrote the original Pickpocket system to appease people complaining about unrestricted hypnosis theft. Then, for basically ten years, nobody used Pickpocket because it was terrible. Then I stole some scabbards and tarot decks from Phelia and people started complaining about Pickpocket. So I proposed the changes to Pickpocket to appease the people who were complaining.

I'm done appeasing, theft is fine. People in this game have a tendency to complain about things they don't like until they are incrementally destroyed.

Argwin

My vote's behind limiting stockroom theft to gold only and/or some way of getting the items back if you or a mark kill the thief (I say vote as if this is a democracy, lol)

Getting the items back would work for house break-ins too I suppose. But this concept as a whole would require a way for the server to tag the item as stolen and who it was stolen from. For example, one other character has access to a room where I store excess herbs. The system would need to know the difference between that person taking some, which is allowed, and someone prisming in and stealing them.

Amranu

Wow people have finally realized this isn't a simple problem with a simple solution. Congrats!

Otha

Given the substantial amount of coding effort (I imagine), I can't really see that being implemented. There are so many other issues that hit so many more people (think of how few people are shopkeepers, then how rare shop theft is).

Besides how hard is it now with key sigils to automatically lock doors on exit? Plus having eye sigils not decay in stockrooms any more (like they used to)? I don't see a ton of effort being spent on it. I'm not saying your idea is bad, but a lower effort implementation is more likely to succeed just because of how far down it would fall on a priority list.

edit: @Amranu I know you are being sarcastic, but not everyone has been robbed or played thieves. We have to do our part to explain all of the mechanisms people are complaining about when they say 'theft'. To your point, it isn't just a simple 'delete/replace pickpocket'. Theft is highly emotional, on both sides. I lost a 45/45 nondecay scalemail that the garden wouldn't let me put resetting on, and I still play.

Profit

For example, one other character has access to a room where I store excess herbs. The system would need to know the difference between that person taking some, which is allowed, and someone prisming in and stealing them.

This sounds like a really good use of time in a game where people go apoplectic when the admin don't immediately address their bug about not being able to wear three pairs of boots and a sandal.

Namino

Just because the game is small and the admin are familiar doesn't mean they're required (or even have time) to communicate on every issue the playerbase has.

Uh.

IRE producers manage a few other staff, between full-time and part-time, as well as community volunteers. You'd be the visible face of the MUD to the players, and so you'll need to have thick skin and not mind or, ideally, enjoy communicating with your players.

Be a people person. This is very important in two significant ways; you're managing other human beings and you're communicating daily with the players.

From the literal job posting.

Happy 300 posts, everyone!

Kshavatra

@Otha: I lost a 45/45 nondecay scalemail that the garden wouldn't let me put resetting on, and I still play.

Beside the point, but didn't you steal this anyway?

Argwin

...

I mean, I was basically poking the big hole in my own suggestion, so... thanks for pointing out the hole? I guess?

Also, I am completely confident that someone has either submitted a bug or an idea that they should be allowed to wear multiple boots. This made me chuckle.

Iaxus

Profit I've said it like 10 times now, idgaf WHAT response they give I just want a response so everyone will shut up. Either your reading comprehension is trash or you're taking this thread way too personally and need to step away. Either way, as Namino stated, it is their job to acknowledge their customers.

Profit

From the literal job posting.

Where does that say you're entitled to an answer to every little complaint you have?

The question of theft has been asked and answered.

Do you want them to answer with the answer they've always given? Is that what you're looking for? Permission and a wide berth to belittle them and mock their decisions? Why would they bother to engage with that?

Otha

Mechanically? No, I just didn't return it - which made me open PK to the entire SL house/Hashan at the time. So did I steal it, yes, did I steal it using any of the mechanics mentioned here so far, no, and was it rightfully mine while I was in the house, yes.

It was a house item given by a divine, not an individual player purchase.

edit: And the Garden made the right call in making it not resetting, so it could in fact be stolen back. 100%. Theft was an RP mechanic for the SL house to get it back, especially when the normal constraints of theft (no hinder/attacking) were removed for them.

@Kshavatra just tagging so you see it.

Namino

This isn't a little complaint. This is clearly the most important issue to this community at this time. This is the most posted topic on this forum in 2021. They should address this.

Profit

Either your reading comprehension is trash or you're taking this thread way too personally and need to step away. Either way, as Namino stated, it is their job to acknowledge their customers.

I'm taking this too personally?

Wowzers.

Kshavatra

@Otha Yeah I know the item in question. One of Elentari's armours that she donated when she ascended or something. I just mostly enjoyed the irony of bringing it up as a big ticket item to lose when that's exactly what happened to the SL.