Much steal. Very hide. Wow.

Eurice

>It's a coincidence that the faction with no actual morals or ideology beyond "Winning = good" is the one rising to the defense of the griefiest activities in the game, except when those activities are directed at them. Then it's unsporting, c'mon Eleusis, don't guardbash us.

What in the world are you on about?

Actually, nevermind. This isn't worth the effort.

Kresslack

Got it. Nothing in Achaea, a game that has maintained a persistent universe for 26 years, should take more than fifteen minutes or be more difficult than wrangling three friends to go see the new Ant-Man movie.

No problem, thank you (and others) for clearly illustrating that you're not really participating in this discussion in good faith.

Profit

Fair.

So apparently none of us want to engage meaningfully on this subject.

Which raises the question: why are we engaging with it at all?

Sobriquet

A fair few of us are engaging meaningfully. However, you are still trying to justify stealing over $250's worth of items from someone and then playing the "Not my problem" card when he didn't want to work with you on paying a large sum to return what is already his.

Can you really blame him for issuing when he lost that much?, not really AT you, but you were the target for this anger and he wanted a resolution. Even with him speaking to you and paying a few HUNDRED credits to return the items it's still a totally one-side and expensive event. I guess he could hire a Mark, but no fu*ker is able to track you down....

None of this is your fault, you're just doing what the Admin are allowing you to do. Which in everyone's eyes but yours and Elyon's, is wrong.

Draqoom

And mine. I could keep posting daily in support I guess.

Cooper

Here's an idea I've been tossing around in my head for a number of years. It is not a finished idea and I'm not going to be offended if you poke a ton of holes in it.

tl;dr Let thieves steal writelog and channel history, give them gold for doing it, give a cut to a thieves guild for a bonus gold sink, and remove most player item theft.

The goal:

Add an impactful theft system (this specific idea is more of a spy system that utilizes Achaea's theft) that is important for all organizations to develop while removing the extreme negatives of item theft.

Basic idea:

All characters would automatically carry invisible records of all of their IC city, clan, and order channels. Says/party could be discussed and potentially added. Thieves will be able to steal this "intel". Through some sort of magical means, the thief is also rewarded with gold for each success.

Details:

* All IC organization channels (including clans) would be stealable

* All IC organization logs (including clans) would be stealable

* Packs would become a safe zone for items. No forced removal of items in a pack or the pack itselfwould be possible.

* The gold stolen will come from the organization the intel was stolen from. This means that every IC clan will need to have gold in the bank. If the clan is org owned, the gold will come from the org bank account instead - this streamlines boring admin work for players. The reasons the gold comes from orgs intead of players are to reduce the impact of theft on individual players, give the cities great incentive to properly train novices on how to prevent theft, and for future war considerations. The amount of gold you get can be adjusted easily, I'd like to see it comparable to unartied dragon bashing - around 45-50k an hour. This could spike if you stole from several high ranking org members, and it could be a lot lower if you focus on stealing from CR1 or low level people.

* Gold in player inventories would still be pick pocketable as normal, but forcing taking anything (including gold) from a pack wouldn't work.

* The thefts are guaranteed to succeed, the thief gets the intel & gold after a delay to allow for counter-play (described below).

- Giving the generosity affliction will start a timer, the intel & gold would scale with how long the timer goes. Curing Generosity does not stop the timer, the timer is an added effect of giving the affliction (or could be a separate uncurable affliction). This means you could get a lot of intel out of someone who is AFK and not in a protected area

- Selfishness being up would reduce the intel and gold gained but not prevent it, think of it like drinking frost elixir to help with fire damage. 

- Org position, org rank, more active time, and level tier (like Great Hunt level tiers) would impact the amount of intel and gold stolen

- Defending against theft would come in several forms - doing nothing results in the thief getting a "full" log or channel history, attacking the thief will stop the generosity timer thus minimizing intel lost but also open you up to being killed, killing a thief within a small window after any theft will force them to drop any intel and gold they've gathered recently

* All thieves would be required to pay a portion of all gold stolen to a denizen run thieves guild (yay goldsink). In return they are given the knowledge of how to extract intel

RP Intro Details:

* Some sort of neutral thieves guild introduced that is run by denizens to give IC justification for the changes & additions. This could be the Jaguar Crime Syndicate if adding a more official thieves guild would be awkward. Maybe they could work with some evil wizard to cast a worldwide spell that makes channel history become accessible through their secret special means that only they know. Or maybe they just know a secret art they share that was previously unknown to serpents and are now willing to share it for a price after seeing the success of their fencing system. The important part is that you have to remain a thieves guild member to steal and gold is removed from the economy.

"But Cooper I see a big hole in this/this won't work" - this is far from a fleshed out idea. Methods of obtaining or defending the intel/gold can be changed, I'm not tied to anything but the basic concepts of thieves can steal org channel history and be rewarded for it, system is impactful enough that cities need to effectively train new citizens, and that the system is set up to bring the organization closer together and not allow people to be singled out.

Synthus

So, I'm going to chime in again, because through a lot of the back and forth I've seen the conversation morph into a focus on mechanics and consequences, but I think there's another question we really need to be asking here as well.

@Profit - This is something I'd legitimately like to see your opinion on here, because while I'm in the "delete theft" camp, I do want to know your side of things on more than just the mechanical.

As I said, the conversation has morphed to mechanics / consequences and ways to make theft work, but I think there are two other questions we need to ask -

Is theft a mechanic that is good for the health and quality of the game?

Does the benefit of theft ( conflict generation, espionage opportunities, etc. ) outweigh the damage that it causes ( mostly players leaving the game and/or retiring characters )?

We've already seen in this thread one player that has retired a character because of theft as well as the successful heist of hundreds of IRL dollars worth of promo items / cards / what-have-you. We know that both cases are something that's happened in the past with the game as well, they aren't just one-offs.

To echo the first post I made a bit, I believe theft is detrimental to the health of the game, and that the benefits do not outweigh the detriments. I believe that theft has reduced the "living, breathing" quality of the Achaean world down to "If you're going to be afk more than 5 seconds, stand on guard stacks or your ship so you don't get stolen from" which detracts from opportunities to engage in roleplay out in the wider world.

Also, while Achaea is "just a game" to some people, there are a lot of players that put more emphasis into it than that. It affords a myriad of opportunities and possibilities for people to explore ideas and avenues of creativity. Theft is one of those things that can absolutely stop that dead in its tracks.

Quick trip down memory lane - my first memory of theft was well over a decade ago on a wee babby character that was my first dip into the text MUD waters. I had been playing for maybe a month and had saved up 50K of gold that I was going to try and buy credits with so I could get more lessons. I didn't know the first thing about theft and was promptly stolen from while talking to someone about an in-character bit of lore off a guard stack. Every bit of gold got handed over. The person I was talking to just shrugged it off as though it happened every day and told me "Should have had your reflexes up." When I sent a tell to the thief, explaining the situation, what that gold was for, and asking them to please give it back, all I got in return was "Lol, fuck off".

I quit playing shortly after that and didn't even try the game again for five or six years. I remembered that experience and one of the first things I did was set up triggers to put gold back in packs, re-wear them, all of that. I also never left guard stacks, and my world, as a result, became a lot smaller.

I don't think any player should have to go through that or worse. I don't think any player should have the ability to invalidate hours of work - either IC work or IRL work - with the snap of their fingers. I don't think any player should have to limit their world down to standing on guards / standing on a ship / journaling because they don't want to lose their stuff.

I simply don't think theft is worth the price it costs the rest of the players.

Atalkez

If I was Lyrin, I would have quit on the spot and never came back when that issued got dismissed.

Kresslack

I'll put the TL;DR at the fore here: I have no issue with the concept of theft when introduced as a practical, planned system with checks and balances in place to prevent it from being too one-sided. I don't think Achaea ever expected theft to be such a big deal, and have since made band-aid attempts to patch a semblance of a system together. I don't think these efforts are enough, as has been demonstrated, and that it leaves a lot of opportunity for abuse under the tenant of "the game lets me do it, so it can't be wrong".

-----------------

I think theft has a viable place in any game, depending on how it is managed and what the purpose is supposed to serve. @Elyon and I actually know each other from another MUD that had a full-fledged theft class established, and a player driven guild to represent it (though people of course still operated independently, just not usually as effectively as a result). While it wasn't the perfect of systems, it had a lot of interesting aspects, some of which I have thrown out here for consideration, such as standard pickpocketing, lockpicking, forgery, etc.

With Achaea, I get the impression that Theft may have been a player introduced concept based on what people observed could be accomplished with existing mechanics, rather than an actual Dev introduced mechanic (until Pickpocketing was introduced as a result). It seems likely that earlier players noticed, "With my class, I can force people to do an action. Why not force them to give me their valuables?" and "theft" was we know it in Achaea become an unofficial thing until the staff were forced to introduce Pickpocket as an attempt to balance what was previously possible.

While I think the idea of espionage is very worthwhile, this is already a viable option as has been demonstrated in the past (especially by older organisations such as the Naga who often proved notoriously effective at it). Realistically, I'm not sure what worthwhile information could be obtained from channels, or how that would be accomplished. Can you imagine someone trying to make money selling information from Cyrene's CT as an example, or Mhaldor's where little is said to begin with, let alone anything of likely value?

I've always been a fan of theft as a practical concept, and one that drives meaningful interaction and sometimes meaningful conflict. I well understand the thrill that those who play these types of characters get, and why they get so defensive over the role, because I've experienced it myself both in Achaea and elsewhere. I just think that Pickpocketing and the Fence system (which I understand @Profit was a driving force behind) are attempts at compromise by the Administration towards a patchwork theft system where one was never fully established before. The intention is there to balance it, but these seem like half-measures which are proving to be not as effective as initially hoped.

I have always wondered why Achaea doesn't develop a more defined theft system and role. To reiterate, we have a fully functional locksmith and key system, which as best I can tell is only used for shops, and getting access to a shop via stealing a key hasn't been a viable avenue for theft in probably a decade at this point, especially with things like the artefact keyring. All other doors are magically locked, which led people to improvise with other methods of infiltration such as prism or crossing barriers as a soul to reincarnate. It's sometimes difficult to fault players for their creativity in finding such loopholes, but it also obviously allows for a certain level of abuse as a result.

There is absolutely no reason anyone should be losing for instance globes and other promo items they purchased with real money. It baffles me as to why these items are not made bound to character like practically any other game. Even if bound with an option to transfer, this would solve a huge issue which was recently brought up. It also reflects back to a basic idea of just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.

Gallida

Actual good faith theft idea:

1. Pickpocket now directly retrieves gold from the victim, container or not. Selfishness does not block the pickpocket. Bank accounts and Aran'kesh nests are thankfully unaffected. Items can no longer be stolen. Items that are advertised as "only the owner can open them" are no longer forceable.

2. Pickpocket without casing gives 5% of the target's total gold. Each case adds an additional percentage point or two, with an increasing balance per case. As a show of mercy, you can stack case as high as the target will let you. Go nuts if they're that AFK and don't believe in banks.

3. Any given person can only be pickpocketed by someone outside their respective organizations once every six months. This should help cut down on the "Okay, everybody line up for your pickpocket shot" potential.

4. Each thief is required to pay 10% of their loot per theft to a mysterious shadowy organization. The organization demands payment at least once per year. This is not an automatic payment, it must be paid in person through a lengthy bean counting accountant process, and most forms of fast travel will be blocked, i.e, you can totally gank the thief down there and get your revenge.

5. If they don't pay, they get ambushed by assassins and murdered before losing access to stealing for a certain period of time. The more gold the thief stiffed the organization, the more times they'll be ambushed and killed. The more times they fail, the longer the period before they can start stealing again.

There. You can rob anyone off guardstacks, even rob some of them completely blind, but there's a reasonable limit, possible counterplay in being able to gank them at the bank, and completely removes the "Well, they should have had reflexes as an 18 year old who doesn't know what an alias is" excuse.

Archaeon

tl;dr 

Profit

Is theft a mechanic that is good for the health and quality of the game?

Just like any mechanic, I would say, 'Sometimes yes, sometimes no.' In the hands of someone looking to integrate into the world, play a role, and exist inside a story that is written by the community at large? Yes, thievery is good for the health and quality of the game. In the hands of an asshole who just wants to grief and spread misery? No, thievery is not good for the health and quality of the game.

The same can be said about PK, ship warfare, politics, mercantilism, and almost any other activity in Achaea. Given, some of these activities are more (or less) regulated than thievery and some of these activities require more (or less) permission than theft but the general rule remains the same: assholes will use mechanics to cause grief.

Does the benefit of theft ( conflict generation, espionage opportunities, etc. ) outweigh the damage that it causes ( mostly players leaving the game and/or retiring characters )?

In my opinion: yes, absolutely. I've had wars waged on my behalf. I've helped collapse political systems. I've extorted orders. I've been double crossed and have double crossed others. I've caused gods to curse their followers. I've seen citizens exposed as traitors and framed the innocent. I've corrupted Security aides and gained access to the inaccessible. I've infiltrated impossible places and sold access. I've seen the game's code change as I'm doing things to ensure what I'm doing is no longer possible. I've almost stolen the Church. I've insinuated myself into places I've no business being. I've cultivated deep alliances that can't be spoken. I've been hired by governments to steal and pilfer information. I've been hired by religions to abscond with relics. I've stolen books that revealed the inner workings of orders and cults. I've lifted religious items that had never been touched by the hands of a non-member. I've negotiated the return of millions of gold for information, to build contacts, or - sometimes - just to have door opened for me at just the right time. I've broken into houses, stolen library access, and stolen books that allowed me to decipher an order's secret language. I've used objects stolen to blackmail, extort, and strongarm a man into unlocking my adversary's shop. I've stolen keys and siphoned gold. I've obtained a key to an office in Targossas that only I have access to and, because of that, declared myself the Dean of the city. I've created fake crises that have required Divine intervention. I've used stolen goods to gaslight people into acting in ways that are beneficial to me. I've used stolen goods to gaslight people into acting in ways that are detrimental to them.

These are just things I remember. It's not my intent to brag but, instead, to show the kinds of plots that simply do not exist without theft. Is the mechanic itself abusable? Yes, but so are a lot of mechanics. Does 'abuse' by one or two individuals necessitate change to the whole system? Absolutely not. That there are so few thieves in the game speaks to the difficulty of the profession. If it were as profitable and as easy as people are saying, the whole world would be thieves. It is hard.

Profit

[G]etting access to a shop via stealing a key hasn't been a viable avenue for theft in probably a decade at this point

For the record, this isn't true. I would estimate I've gained access to 4-5 shops in the last year by stealing the key. Some of them I still have the keys to, I just go in and siphon gold equal to the difference between the stockroom report amounts and the actual amounts.

Kshavatra

>@Cerelia said: Amranu, Eryl, Eurice, Kshavatra, and Ognog -- all seem to play Hashani characters.

I've been the same city as Elyon for like 3 days. Last time I was active before last week, he was Ashtani and specifically targetting Hashani. Profit also specifically targetted Hashani at that time.

I've also played other characters in every city over 10+ years, so implying that I don't care about theft because Elyon doesn't target me is misguided. I'm happy to afk 5 minutes in front of any thief who wants to give it a go, and they'll only get sigils and letters. It's just that easy to protect your valuable stuff when you have done the research and know the systems at play.

Sheverad

That there are so few thieves in the game speaks to the difficulty of the profession. If it were as profitable and as easy as people are saying, the whole world would be thieves. It is hard.

Or, you know, not all players want to RP that here because they have NPD/ASPD, whether OCC or IC.

Last time I was active before last week, he was Ashtani and specifically targetting Hashani.

Speaks volumes about how thievery is handled IC sometimes, and its repercussions...

Profit

Or, you know, not all players want to RP that here because they have NPD/ASPD, whether OCC or IC.

Cool of you to make wild assumptions about my medical history and mental wellbeing based solely on the role I enjoy in a video game.

Kshavatra

>Speaks volumes about how thievery is handled IC sometimes, and its repercussions...

That's 15 IC years. Atalkez can join a new city and become the leader three times over in that timeframe, so I don't see why Elyon can't atone for his sins once.

Also not everybody gets as upset about this as the vocal minority you're seeing on the forums. Some people get stolen from, learn a lesson, make changes and move on. Others screech and make threads over and over in an attempt to browbeat the admins into changing something they don't like.

Profit

Also not everybody gets as upset about this as the vocal minority you're seeing on the forums.

I think this is my big takeaway here. A few people are yelling very loudly and assuming that the whole playerbase is standing behind them. That's just not my experience. For every, 'I hate you, eff you, I hope you die, I'm quitting, this is terrible' reaction that I get there's probably forty or fifty good interactions that are fun for everyone involved.

I'm not really inclined to be bothered that 5-6 people are screaming into the void of the forums that there's a huge problem.

Otha

@Cooper That's a pretty sweet theft idea, I'd be onboard.

@everyone else - Quit using the Lyrin/Profit situation as a 'theft sucks' example. That is 100% on Lyrin and outside of the traditional theft mechanic. It's more equatable to not having an eye sigil in your damn stockroom.

Does it suck? Absolutely. Will any of these suggested changes prevent that? Probably not. Can you prevent break-ins without ruining a whole lot of existing mechanics? Probably not.

Focus on Pickpocket and targeting newbies / people coming back. That is changeable.

@Kresslack there are protections in place for globes and promo items, if you keep them in your inventory (re: the email from the Admin in reply to the situation). A player made an active choice to deny himself those protections thinking he was smarter.

Vinzent

As far as I can recall I've been stolen from twice that I can remember, once was by @Profit who took a vial (the fucker) and the other was too long ago.

Edit: My only suggestion might be to change the theft level barrier from thirty to eighty, otherwise I don't really mind where theft is right now. Not that I partake in it myself, but if newbies are such a concern then city teaching is either at fault or the barrier isn't high enough (or perhaps both).

Kresslack

@Otha The issue with the Lyrin situation is purely that it was promo items or items secured by promos, purchased OOCly. That would be like someone being able to steal your artefacts, in my opinion, and you be at their mercy of how or if you get them back. In that particular case, I think the Administration takes most of the blame for making it possible for such items to be stolen to begin with.

Otha

@Kresslack That's a non-issue. He bypassed current protections by taking them out of his inventory, just like people who decide to keep them in their stockrooms.

edit: All these jokes about 'opt-in' to theft, and he literally did opt-in by doing that. He could've just kept them and been fine. Wasn't that the admin response, or did I read that email incorrectly?

Sobriquet

Victim blaming at it's finest, well done Otha

Kresslack

Things like that usually are considered non-issues to individuals it hasn't happened to before. People make mistakes, or make decisions based on misunderstandings (such as thinking these items might be bound and not need to be worried about). That doesn't mean they need to suffer exorbitant loss in a game that directly impacts their real life wallet.

Otha

@Sobriquet I mean, I'm onboard for changing globes and promo stuff to being resetting and non-transferable between characters. Is that what we want? That solves the Lyrin situation.

I'm just confused, is this thread about pickpocket theft or theft through other mechanics like break-ins? The two are wildly different. Promo items are already protected from pickpocket theft.

I also can't really defend @Profit from the ethical/moral standpoint, but I have no clue how low he was willing to go. I've sold (1-5% of value) or given most of stolen stuff back.

edit: @Kresslack Honestly, maybe the solution is better communication (from the admins) on HOW to keep your promo items protected? I could see that being needed, but that doesn't change the mechanics of what happened.

edit2: I did win an issue once over someone who scammed me over 10k gold for his journal. I still feel a tiny bit guilty about that, but he ignored me right after I 'sold' his journal to him.

Argwin

Failing to perform an action is not a form of opt-in. That's literally the definition of an opt-out system. In rl we don't say that someone opts-in to being robbed if they keep money in their wallet instead of the bank.

Proper opt-in behavior says if I don't offend people, I won't get attacked. Obviously people can and will violate pk rules, but that's what Issues are for.

Having to take certain steps or actions (stand on guard stacks, reflexively be selfish, etc) means theft is an opt-out system. I have to actively opt-out to avoid it.

Anyone arguing that theft is opt-in is redefining the term to suit their argument.

To be clear, Lyrin keeping excess legend deck cards in a chest, in his oos house, is not opting-in to theft.

Otha

@Argwin He had to perform an action voluntarily (i.e. remove the items from his inventory) to be open to theft. How is that not opt-in? The default option, remain in inventory, protected him.

edit: The best argument for this is that he didn't know, and that it isn't communicated anywhere to keep them in your inventory. Under that argument you could make the case for a 1-time admin reversal, better communication, and possibly suggest resetting/nontransferable promo items. To best honest, I didn't know this (but I don't buy promo items).

edit2: All of your examples of having to take actions are for pickpocket theft. He literally had to take an action to be OPEN to theft. Again, this isn't pickpocket.

Sobriquet

There is no valid reason in any shape or form that the Admins allow someone to spend $100's of dollars on the website, and then don't care that those items can then be stolen 5 minutes later purely because the owner put them in a chest. That is totally unacceptable and should 100% not be possible, regardless of where those items are located.

Profit speaks about his great deeds as a thief but had no qualms in happily taking all Lyrin's shit and then having the sheer audacity to ask for 100's of credits to give it back.

I know I'm a lone voice, but there is a reason why I refuse to spend anything more than Elite on Achaea these days.

Argwin

Removing items from your inventory and storing them in a container in a house secured by standard in-game methods (door perms, totems, etc) is not an opt-in for theft. That's as disingenuous as saying that logging in is a form of opting in. Profit even mentioned that Lyrin went to extra lengths to make his house what he thought was not able to be broken into. Now, if you were to say that failing to inrift herbs and logging out was an invitation for someone to see herbs on the ground and taking them, I'd be more agreeable, but Lyrin's case is far different.

Sheverad

... whether OCC or IC.

Can't read or did the sentence strike a nerve right before you got to this part?

Also not everybody gets as upset about this as the vocal minority you're seeing on the forums.

This is not a vocal minority against theft as it is implemented. It's a vocal minority against the existence of theft. Read more carefully what came before, please. Also because you didn't read, to highlight it:

I'm just confused, is this thread about pickpocket theft or theft through other mechanics like break-ins

It's for theft in general.

Wasn't that the admin response, or did I read that email incorrectly?

Yes it was, but the thing is, is this clearly stated anywhere? That if you happen to get promo items and store them somewhere other than leave it in your inventory they are lost forever? Is it something you need to learn after you lose something after an issue and hundreds of dollars? Nowhere is it stated in HELP THEFT, that people get to read as part of their TASKS. Should have been tip #4 in that scroll: keep all your promo items in your inventory and nowhere else. Nothing is also mentioned in HELP PROMO.

The point people seem to be missing here, as the majority has voiced (and not some so-called vocal minority exclaiming), is that theft in general needs to be moderated, and that for the people who actively practice it there is no equal retribution to take as for other issues, and any potential gains so heavily outweigh the losses for the thief.

I'm pro moderated theft, but not as it stands right now and with the apathy of admins against grand cases such as Lyrin's, which is potentially also a cause of their inadequate documentation on affected things.

This is where the focus should be on, really, in this discussion.

TL;DR for Archaeon: Most people don't want to kill theft, but they want it moderated, and potential losses made crystal clear in documentation by admins as it can lead to extremely bad customer experience.