New Class: Pariah

Amranu

I think adding a prone to the class honestly isn't the biggest of deals. It should have a way to stop earrings, and if it's put on something like burrow or infest, then they're losing momentum for it anyway.

Also earrings are not fine but too many people like them the way they are so they're not going to change.

Atalkez

I don't agree that earrings are not fine. I default to the fact that if it's a 1v1, they're not going to use an earring in a duel. If you're wanting to gank someone solo, an earring is no stronger than an urn or wand of reflections or knocker or any multitude of ways to get away. It's just not that relevant in my experience.

If you're talking about group situations, very, very rarely does an earring get me away from a group. I don't see an issue with adding prone to Pariah in some heavily gated fashion (independent of virulence), but I find it difficult to say that it's not a big deal to add it. It's a very big deal because it can force you to burn an herb balance for paralysis, or even worse a mycalium/epilepsy tick leaving you prone, when you absolutely should not otherwise. You can't do much defending from your back unless you're a monk, so that makes another hard-swap situation on an already very overbearing class. I think several things needs to be adjusted before we evaluate giving it a prone.

Eryl

Atalkez said:

I don't agree that earrings are not fine. I default to the fact that if it's a 1v1, they're not going to use an earring in a duel. If you're wanting to gank someone solo, an earring is no stronger than an urn or wand of reflections or knocker or any multitude of ways to get away. It's just not that relevant in my experience.

If you're talking about group situations, very, very rarely does an earring get me away from a group. I don't see an issue with adding prone to Pariah in some heavily gated fashion (independent of virulence), but I find it difficult to say that it's not a big deal to add it. It's a very big deal because it can force you to burn an herb balance for paralysis, or even worse a mycalium/epilepsy tick leaving you prone, when you absolutely should not otherwise. You can't do much defending from your back unless you're a monk, so that makes another hard-swap situation on an already very overbearing class. I think several things needs to be adjusted before we evaluate giving it a prone.

Yea, bringing back what Mizik said earlier, a prone would let us levy forced swaps even harder.  It felt pretty bad earlier, but now that more people have shaken out more interactions, using those swaps effectively is all you need to hinder.  Since your bug attacks go through shield (and latency can be refreshed), you can kill off a lock pretty easily even without sealing it with a prone.  The only thing that I think it suffers from kinda roughly is that we can't prevent some class cures (might, phoenix, and slough all come to mind).  Lots of other classes that can lock can't lock every class, so there's already precedent for that, and after a lock you can just muscle a latency > transpose/voyria without even having to worry about stripping shield. At that point, you can just fissure > accelerate if they shield or just accelerate if they do anything else.

Archaeon

can we not let people derail a threat that's supposed to be about pariah plz

Amranu

> If you're wanting to gank someone solo, an earring is no stronger than an urn or wand of reflections or knocker or any multitude of ways to get away.

Yeah, this is strictly not true, and is the reason they're not fine. They are objectively better than any other class agnostic escape, because they do not respect room hinder -or- monolith, whereas urn or knocker or virtually any other escape respect one or the other. Wand of reflections isn't actually an escape, so I'm not sure why that was brought up.

Pariah can prevent urn with ensorcell, it can prevent knocker with monolith. It cannot prevent earrings. I'm glad everyone is enjoying their earrings, but the idea that they are not an overpowered escape is laughable.

Shecks

Giving Pariah a prone isn't the only solution for earrings or fast travel in general (it's certainly not just earrings, but it's the obvious go-to as it has the fewest ways to stop it).  

I will point out again that nobody has suggested that Pariah should be any better than any other class at stopping it, but every class does have some way to do it, whether it's a prone or some other mechanic - and Pariah doesn't.  Maybe historically it has not been a huge issue because historically Pariah didn't exist, so every class had some way to deal with it.  

Considering that Pariah's access to paralysis is more limited than any other class in the game (as every class, at minimum, has access to Weaponry), and also uniquely has zero access to any form of limb breaks, I really don't see the hard swap scenario as being a real counterargument compared to any other aff-based / momentum class.

At the same time, there are tons of existing options out there other than a prone, or new ones could be devised.

Considering Pariah's raid utility is quite weak, I think a good idea to knock out two birds with one stone is to just give the class some way to stop fast-travel in general, either through encorcell or a room effect akin to Silence.  If it's a room effect it affects the Pariah too, and would be an interesting and fair tactic to use in both 1v1 as well as group PVP, while also providing a solution to the earring situation (while still permitting walking one room away and using earring).

That's one idea out of an infinite number of possibilities, so don't get hung up on that - it's just an example of a way to deal with the issue without a prone.

Gurklukke

Gonna just grab the wheel, since it is becoming (yet another) complaint thread about Earrings. Reeeeeee @Shecks

Steer us out of oncoming traffic and back on the Pariah Highway.

Atalkez

Amranu said:

> If you're wanting to gank someone solo, an earring is no stronger than an urn or wand of reflections or knocker or any multitude of ways to get away.

Yeah, this is strictly not true, and is the reason they're not fine. They are objectively better than any other class agnostic escape, because they do not respect room hinder -or- monolith, whereas urn or knocker or virtually any other escape respect one or the other. Wand of reflections isn't actually an escape, so I'm not sure why that was brought up.

Pariah can prevent urn with ensorcell, it can prevent knocker with monolith. It cannot prevent earrings. I'm glad everyone is enjoying their earrings, but the idea that they are not an overpowered escape is laughable.

I said ways to get away, not an escape directly. Point wand at me effectively is going to get you out of everything you mentioned, or at the very least let you freely spam against the room hinder (wait out hamstring, etc) to urn or to duanathar or duanthara or duanatharan or duanatharic or universe or pathfinder or knocker or gare or....

I'm not saying earrings aren't strong, they are. They're just not as much of a consistent issue in practice than in theory because of many factors. The only time I really have an issue with earring is when someone uses a wand of reflection, and even then they could have just urn/wings away just the same. It's just not as much of an issue in my eyes as it is in some of yours. I'm also not interested in nerfing fast travel in general because I don't think wanting to kill someone means I should get that shot no matter what the other person wants to do. I say that as someone who regularly has to hunt people down for whatever reason, and I'm completely fine with someone getting away from me.

Amranu

You argued the opposite re: Penwize's cross planar token. I'm not sure how you reconcile these views, to be honest.

Atalkez

You would have to remind me the context of the argument. That token is a lot different than the abilities we're mentioning here.

Fuwa

Weighing in on the balance of pariah as someone who has been playing and super loving the class, it definitely has some frustrating issues when played well. Epilepsy on its own is a minor issue, but epilepsy and mycalium together combined with two affs that block focus, a tell on mycalium when it's cured, and access to heartbeats to time paralysis so it lands just after the opponent eats something else... That's a bit much for a class that has momentum this crazy. Opening with a hinder epitaph and swapping to a kill condition epitaph is a bit too much of a best of both worlds scenario.

Upping the interval on mycalium or lowering the balance knock would make the class more manageable, and losing logograph combo partially or fully when changing epitaph would resolve the best of both worlds thing in my opinion. As it stands, you can work towards a lock while hindering so hard I got a full reset for myself against a shaman who knew what he was doing, no affs on me and deafness back up. There's no opportunity cost for doing this and then switching epitaphs to seal the kill besides maybe not being able to heartbeat bear on your first balance to line it up so it sticks.

The right priorities slows the class down a fair amount if the pariah is only using kill condition affs, I feel that's in the right place. Heartbeats may need some adjustments because it offers a daunting amount of opening burst which can be used for a quick kill or hinder, maybe a cooldown or a limit to how many heartbeat affs can be concurrently stacked.

I'm certainly no authority on balance, and could be missing the mark on what's a bit too strong right now, especially since the class is new and people haven't had time to perfect priorities, shield timing, tree scenarios, and all that. At the end of the day this is just my opinion on what would make the class more enjoyable for my opponents to play against based on testing and feedback. Mutual fun is all I care about.

Archaeon

What shaman

Fuwa

Not here to name names. I don't know if they'd appreciate that. We had a long hinder fight that boiled down to both of us being as annoying as possible, and I was still able to make slow and steady progress both offensively and defensively using what we both agreed was the silliest amount of hinder pariah could dish out with how we know to use the class so far.

Archaeon

K. I'm not sure that the class is that oppressive. Seems like it's in a spectacular place. The momentum is only truly bad when your priorities are bad. 

Saonji

I wish people who argue something's too strong/weak, would actually provide logs to evidence their claims.

eta: Actual logs. Not ones specifically setup to try and justify their arguments.

Ainly

Fuwa said:

Weighing in on the balance of pariah as someone who has been playing and super loving the class, it definitely has some frustrating issues when played well. Epilepsy on its own is a minor issue, but epilepsy and mycalium together combined with two affs that block focus, a tell on mycalium when it's cured, and access to heartbeats to time paralysis so it lands just after the opponent eats something else... That's a bit much for a class that has momentum this crazy. Opening with a hinder epitaph and swapping to a kill condition epitaph is a bit too much of a best of both worlds scenario.

I think the class is supposed to be really bursty on offense given the lack of defensive options compared to other classes, and that it seems to take more damage overall than any other as well without even an active heal.

Archaeon

Also why would a shaman undeaf you or not just tarnel/scurse para or stick impat/stupidity/epilepsy on you. Seems like that shaman didn't know what he was doing. 

Dochitha

She is trying to get across that Mycalium's 2-2.5s balance knocks every 10s PLUS epilepsy's knock, are both very hindering, given the skein sun path also loops serpent the quickest. The Shaman definitely doesn't know what he's doing, cos I was the shaman and I wasn't good with Shaman to begin with, but what I did during the test was spamming sensitivity then invoke roar, and Pariah got ahead regardless. I could get momentum going early fight when Pariah is winding up their first few balances, once Mycalium epilepsy and all heartbeats and infest lands, even roaring on loop doesn't slow it down much, and you can't hinder so well when you get 2s balance knock every 10s from Mycalium. I think that's the point she's trying to get across. I would give her credit for what she says, given she is heavily invested in Pariah and pointing out what seems to be overwhelming from the giving side, not the receiving side. Opinions, debates, don't shut people off.

Shirszae

You can't really judge ideal offense against non-ideal defense, I think. Like, the point she seems to be making is that using all their tools to their best, pariah is overbearing, but to prove that you have to set it against someone else also using all their tools to their best.

I think @Saonji makes the best point that a log would illustrate things the best 

Archaeon

Paralysis from smash mid seems to shut pariah down pretty hard. 

Mizik

Jack Daniels take the wheel! 

RE: Earrings

What about an X condition (plague + plague or something) for a limited Pazuzu effect? Something new, unique and INTERESTING?

Wanted to add for the Psion homies, Psi Manipulate is wonderful against this class. Leap, tree, project, wavesurge. 

Saonji

Dochitha said:

She is trying to get across that Mycalium's 2-2.5s balance knocks every 10s PLUS epilepsy's knock, are both very hindering, given the skein sun path also loops serpent the quickest. The Shaman definitely doesn't know what he's doing, cos I was the shaman and I wasn't good with Shaman to begin with, but what I did during the test was spamming sensitivity then invoke roar, and Pariah got ahead regardless. I could get momentum going early fight when Pariah is winding up their first few balances, once Mycalium epilepsy and all heartbeats and infest lands, even roaring on loop doesn't slow it down much, and you can't hinder so well when you get 2s balance knock every 10s from Mycalium. I think that's the point she's trying to get across. I would give her credit for what she says, given she is heavily invested in Pariah and pointing out what seems to be overwhelming from the giving side, not the receiving side. Opinions, debates, don't shut people off.

1) Skein/sun/serp is fastest para delivery, yes. But you're not threatening anything except for latency if you're only doing that, and a Shaman can very easily lock in the time it takes to pull that off, even factoring in mycalium/epilepsy (which probably won't even get stuck early to begin with). With the information presently given, I'm confident in saying @Amranu would win this matchup without much difficulty.

2) The time it takes to get 3 heartbeats + infest going out, is a lot of time spent doing 0 affs that the Shaman has plenty of time to do stuff. Especially since relapse para can throw off heartbeat timings rather easily.

3) Nothing against you, personally, but you chose quite possibly the worst way of hindering someone as Shaman...

Much like Alchemist, Shaman can give lethargy early pretty reliably on a not-significant cooldown. Versus a class that wants to run you down as quick as possible, lethargy is amazing. Much like Bard, Shaman can also stick stupidity insanely quick which as we've seen, fucks over Pariah immensely even with the expose change.

All in all, if you want to seriously discuss balance issues (hurr) pertaining to a class... Actually providing logs allows for a much better discussion, rather than giving loose anecdotes. This is why Shecks receives so much shit, because he'd rather argue that he's right without providing any evidence to the fact. I could sit here and say 'omg psion op i died in 15s' which is certainly possible if I have horrendous curing, and aren't actually hindering them/defending in any meaningful way. But that's not a realistic scenario, is it?

tl;dr for Archaeon: Logs pls to show OP

Fuwa

I did plainly say I could be missing the mark. Seems that was the case. I don't keep logs and I'm just one fighter with one opinion I can accept is wrong. If I try this again I'll post a log, but I think I'm out of place commenting on combat balance on the forums from what I'm hearing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sorry to bother.

Archaeon

Not out of place but if you're going to suggest changes you should be ready for the criticism that comes with that. Don't throw a pity party.

Shirszae

Fuwa said:

I did plainly say I could be missing the mark. Seems that was the case. I don't keep logs and I'm just one fighter with one opinion I can accept is wrong. If I try this again I'll post a log, but I think I'm out of place commenting on combat balance on the forums from what I'm hearing ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sorry to bother.

Please don't take it like that. I don't think anyone meant to imply you are out of place. People just won't always agree with you, or will point out what they perceive as flaws in your observations or logic. 

I mean, if you've been keeping up with this thread so far then you know how it goes! 

Dochitha

I agree a log speaks a thousand words. Suggest someone good with shaman hit up Fuwa ig for a hinder race, might get better ideas to this discussion. 

Shirszae

Mizik said:

Jack Daniels take the wheel! 

RE: Earrings

What about an X condition (plague + plague or something) for a limited Pazuzu effect? Something new, unique and INTERESTING?

Wanted to add for the Psion homies, Psi Manipulate is wonderful against this class. Leap, tree, project, wavesurge. 

I don't know about earrings but I am still in love with the idea of eclipse somehow being able to stop duanathar. Could tie it to some Plague mechanic fueling the insects or some such like you mention. 

Atalkez

Mizik POV - https://ada-young.com/pastebin/UH4ZUR_L
My POV - https://ada-young.com/pastebin/ujp2rFmx

Both losses, neither are good indicators of anything except how quickly the offense goes from 0 -> crazy. 

I still don't like that it can beat herb balance, and I don't like that heartbeat allows for a plague relapse in the middle of 1.5s attack chains to stick 3 plagues while off herb balance. 

Eryl

Shirszae said:

Mizik said:

Jack Daniels take the wheel! 

RE: Earrings

What about an X condition (plague + plague or something) for a limited Pazuzu effect? Something new, unique and INTERESTING?

Wanted to add for the Psion homies, Psi Manipulate is wonderful against this class. Leap, tree, project, wavesurge. 

I don't know about earrings but I am still in love with the idea of eclipse somehow being able to stop duanathar. Could tie it to some Plague mechanic fueling the insects or some such like you mention. 

I agree that eclipse stopping duanathar would be appropriate both thematically and mechanically.

I don’t think any class needs a mechanical “prevent earring always” button. Sub Alchemist already has one, and it carries with it a massive opportunity cost (you can’t take flashstep, your best defensive, or imposition/radiation, your big group threat, if you take it) AND it’s RNG if it stops it.

Saonji

Atalkez said:

Mizik POV - https://ada-young.com/pastebin/UH4ZUR_L
My POV - https://ada-young.com/pastebin/ujp2rFmx

Both losses, neither are good indicators of anything except how quickly the offense goes from 0 -> crazy. 

I still don't like that it can beat herb balance, and I don't like that heartbeat allows for a plague relapse in the middle of 1.5s attack chains to stick 3 plagues while off herb balance. 

I agree that balance should probably cap at ~1.65, won't really be too significant on the Pariah's side but it'll eliminate cases like that.

Your log probably would have been different if you were attacking back and not trying to dash over and over again.

Mizik's log didn't seem too bad, although the donglord doesn't have plagues in prompt. He admits to still learning psion, though. Didn't abuse muddle/stupidity nearly as hard as he could have.