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New Class: Pariah

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  • GurklukkeGurklukke Member Posts: 131 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 28
    So, when using skills and doing certain things, it requires you to have a free hand.  However for someone with a shield, both hands are filled and I am finding myself having to unwield knife, use skill, rewield knife -or- the same with shield, by lashing it then unlashing.  Is there a reason we are required to have a free hand, or would it be gamebreaking to just allow us to do so while wielding a shield.

    Just a bit of a bummer having an SoA, then needing also a free hand.
  • ErylEryl Member Posts: 363 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Gurklukke said:
    So, when using skills and doing certain things, it requires you to have a free hand.  However for someone with a shield, both hands are filled and I am finding myself having to unwield knife, use skill, rewield knife -or- the same with shield, by lashing it then unlashing.  Is there a reason we are required to have a free hand, or would it be gamebreaking to just allow us to do so while wielding a shield.

    Just a bit of a bummer having an SoA, then needing also a free hand.
    The consensus of myself and those around me is that Pariah was designed to only wield the knife while fighting.  Those same people also feel this is a mistake, and that Pariah needs to at least be able to wield a shield (and/or get a substantial resist buff).  Things are still new, and many of these opinions are changing quickly.  This opinion has not changed since release, though.
    Gurklukke
  • ArgwinArgwin Member Posts: 178 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    HELP ARMOUR says Pariah doesn't use a shield, but I suppose that doesn't account for those with an SoA
  • AuriaAuria Member Posts: 8
    edited January 28
    Taking a look at HELP ARMOUR, it specifies that Pariahs can't wield an SoA, either, similar to Blademaster, but they are currently able to do so.

    "* The artefact shield of absorption may be wielded by everyone except blademasters and pariahs."
  • GurklukkeGurklukke Member Posts: 131 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 28
    Auria said:
    Taking a look at HELP ARMOUR, it specifies that Pariahs can't wield an SoA, either, similar to Blademaster, but they are currently able to do so.

    "* The artefact shield of absorption may be wielded by everyone except blademasters and pariahs."


    If they take it away from me, I wont have any classes that wield a shield anymore, cause I switched to 2-hand on Runewarden.
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,475 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 28
    You can't wield a shield while pvp. You can wield a shield when hunting. 

    Has anyone found a tablet yet? Some clues would be excellent. 
    GurklukkeAuriaShecks
  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 28
    This class is a lil' bit awesome!

    https://ada-young.com/pastebin/96Alm8dF  (yes, 11)

    Things done well:
    1) RP is amazing, flavor is unmatched in any class I've ever played other than serpent ofc!
    2) The combat mechanics are cool.  I wouldn't say they're that strong, but they're cool as hell.
    3)  The class requires tracking to use (people will argue, but they're wrong) - but I appreciate that they made it easy to do by adding in certain things that make it a lot easier for people who aren't professional coders.
    4)  swarms are just awesome
    5)  We have dwinnu, which is awesome.  The class really needed this, so i'm glad it's there.  Great foresight by whoever realized this and had it included.

    issues I see now (noting I am sure some will be fixed in coming days/weeks):

    1) bashing is horrible.  I'm sorry, it has to be said.  With L3 sash and L3 collar and chaining attacks at peak efficiency, it's slow as hell.   Can't imagine what'd be like without arties.

    2) the class has no way to prone, and targets can earring away at literally any time from first hit until 1 millisecond before you kill them - and there is exactly nothing you can do to stop it.

    3)  Eclipse (stops flying) is cool but it needs to stop Duanathar.  It doesn't, and it absolutely should.

    4)  Raid utility, as far as I can tell, is quite poor.  I've heard Mak say that it's strong but I'd really like to hear why.  We don't have nothing but compared to other classes, it's quite weak.  Here's my summary:
    • class cannot wield ANY weapons, which means no limb breaks, no shatter, no behead, no BOWS (including meteors), no javelins or atalatls, etc.
    • Single-target hindrance that lasts roughly 10-15 seconds, comparable to pinshot.  Good for duel, bad for raids.
    • can do an AOE impatience-like ability (sandfever) but requires sacrificing a consumable that requires going out hunting to collect again, and hits your allies.
    • Can't do actual damage, pretty much ever.
    • No offensive hindrance to speak of
    • No active cures
    • None of the instakills are realistically going to happen in teamfights.
    • Sickness is.... odd.  Why does one class have a skill that's singularly useful against a very weak ability in a single classe's kit (DW Aeon).  As far as we can tell, it exclusively protects you from DW Aeon, at the cost of basically dying twice next time you starburst.  People think this is a useful ability for raids.  It isn't.
    • Awaken is cool - gives you fog of war, but this is an artefact already (technically two) so... meh.
    There are basically two abilities that you'll actually use in a raid:
    • Wave -  You can displace people who are massed (stopped by walls/block/etc).  It's useful I guess.
    • Leech - You can give your friends Panacea for 5 minutes (as well as yourself ofc).  That's pretty nice.
    I might be missing something of course, it's only been a couple days - but overall I see nothing at all that would make me want to stay Pariah during any form of raid on either end.  I'd absolutely change to literally any other class.

    5)  Everything this class does is extremely clearly projected.  Due to how Epitaphs work, a knowledgeable opponent knows what afflictions are coming next, and will also see every timed affliction coming miles away.  I expect this class will get wrecked by every prep class who can just turtle every time they see any timed affs coming their way, in between prepping limbs.  Momentum classes will be fun matchups, if point 6 below gets fixed:

    6)  You can't do ANYTHING if you have a single arm break (e.g. epteth), so any class that can consistently apply epteth or keep arms broken a good percentage of the time can basically turn Pariah offense off like a light switch.  This would include at the very least serpent, apostate, DWC, SnB, 2B knights, blademasters, priests, sentinels, earthlords, monks, magi, bard, druid.  If they just keep an arm broken, we can basically do nothing but stand there, and ... enjoy having zero armor, no SoA, no form of HP recovery or damage mitigation (reflections, etc).

    7)  Class doesn't have a single form of combat mobility, outside of crypts/deserts which is just a death sentence in modern Achaea.    If you don't have earrings, don't play Pariah, basically - because you're going to die constantly.  A single gravehands is enough to kill you, even if they do nothing but DPS you down like an NPC, because you're extremely squishy and have no way to stop them attacking you, and no way to leave.

    8)  Crypts and tablets.  I'm just going to leave this alone for a few weeks.... WIP it seems.  I will say that I don't like how Charnel is basically a completely non-combat skillset.

    9) Can we please have a way to actually use Dust other than buying an artefact pet so we can kick it to use our class ability?  If we can turn into dust, just let us turn into dust please.  Get rid of the damage mechanic completely.

    10)  Charnel just feels weak.  When it comes to actual combat, your only actual ability you'll use with any frequency is Reconstitute (Dwinnu).  Maybe Wave, against some classes.  Just feels like not enough (especially for people like me who spent 5,000 lessons on it).

    11)  Swarms are... weird.  There's a lot of complexity here for what appears to be no apparent reason.  What is swarm size for?  Everything requires 1000 insects.  Why do small/medium exist?  Why does anything larger than 1,000 exist?  Why do different bug types exist?  Why is the number of insects we can have not match up with a multiple of 1,000?  Why is there no way to RELEASE insects that we don't want?  Etc.

    12)  needs more killpaths.  Scourge and Voyria are both extremely projected and so different that it's absolutely clear which you're going for, and thus extremly easy to stop it.  Venomlocking is realistically impossible against a competent player, and damage/mana kills are off the table.   There needs to be something else to be scared of otherwise it's just "Oh, he's doing Scourge, i'll just shield after Weariness (right before Haemophilia in the Epitaph path) and I cannot die".

    I could do a lot more, but I think these are the big things that I've been mulling over.  I want to stress, these are not complaints - I know a lot is still in flux - just wanted to share my thoughts after having spent the last few days basically doing nothing but studying the class.  

    Being honest though, I would not recommend switching to Pariah right now unless the following three conditions apply:
    1) You are fine with a class that isn't quite finished yet
    2) You are multiclassed on something else that you can use for bashing or teamfights
    3) You are extremely good at both combat and at coding.



  • AuriaAuria Member Posts: 8
    I imagine a big reason for having different types of bugs is so that people can have variety if they want it, which I very much appreciate. I love my vampire moths. And the max bugs we can have is 10,000. I currently have six large swarms (6000) 1900 other bugs in reserve, and am capable of enthralling 2100 more. It's very possible that this is altered by factors such as int, if you're able to have more than 10k.
    Gurklukke
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,542 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I definitely like that different insects exist, even if only for flavour 

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • ZaltearZaltear Member Posts: 2
    I've been really enjoying going bug hunting and building swarms out of different bugs. Hoping to find scarabs or dragonflies!
    Dochitha
  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 28
    Oh and Class should get some bonus for Weaponry skill set as it literally cuts you off from using an entire skill set you paid for / learned (along with tons of artefacts and proficiencies that were omni-class when you bought them).

    That or just remove the no weapons mechanic entirely and find a better way to deal with the torso break / scourge issue.
  • VinzentVinzent Member Posts: 362 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Ooh, I didn't know trace could be used for bashing. Been wracking in forays this whole time like a chump.
    Gurklukke
  • GurklukkeGurklukke Member Posts: 131 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Trace is real good for bashing, you can literally set up an Epitaph chain and loop, getting up to 1.5 second traces for bashing.
    Its fantastically fast!!!

    I dont know if there is an ideal loop, or logograph to use for bashing, so I just spam through them for flavor.
  • SaonjiSaonji Member Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Gurklukke said:
    Trace is real good for bashing, you can literally set up an Epitaph chain and loop, getting up to 1.5 second traces for bashing.
    Its fantastically fast!!!

    I dont know if there is an ideal loop, or logograph to use for bashing, so I just spam through them for flavor.

    Personally I just do: epitaph focus serpent nest bear scarab jackal serpent
    before bashing, then spam epitaph advance. I think traces all do the same damage. Advance automatically finds the next viable one that won't break your chain. So as long as you don't stop attacking it should never break. I got up to a ~540 or so chain in Moghedu last night, a shame speed caps after a few traces.
    Eryl
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 5,541 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This class isn’t my style and Makarios insists one of the rituals will be a very big draw to me. So I’m very curious what will come to light in the coming weeks!




    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AinlyAinly Member Posts: 153 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    "This has psychological value too; after the first few times capable leaders will have to simply assume its up on a rush or risk one of the infamous "wait, who are we hitting again?" moments on a rush. Getting the initiation is one of the few advantages the attacking group can be assured of, so making leaders hesitant to make you the beneficiary of it is a rare thing."

    I have no problem with the way dust is currently, but the explanation of the advantage here on a rush doesn't really make sense to me. If I can force someone to dust form and take them out of the fight immediately from the get-go, how is that different than something like the kai banish of the old days? If the pariah has dust active, hitting them once means they are out of the fight for the next 60 seconds. There doesn't seem to be a way to "human" out of dust form.
  • ZaltearZaltear Member Posts: 2
    Makarios said:

    I will say what I consider the two most powerful things in the Pariah's raid kit are both rituals. One is something that is not something that can be expected to be held with any regularity (and this is reflected by its strength), the other can be used frequently enough once it is found that it will need to be a consideration in teamfights. Also for those wondering, the people who tested Pariah do not know what the rituals do - they're working with the same information as you as of this time.

    Perhaps this is information I've missed somewhere, having hopped aboard to try the new class, but does this imply that only one person can hold each tablet at a time, or rather that it's just more likely to be stolen from whoever has it?
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,971 Achaean staff
    Apparently that's missing from the abfile. REFORM is how you human from dust, I'll get the file updated.

    Ainly
  • ArchaeonArchaeon Ur mums house lolMember Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    HUMAN gives a message that it works but it actually doesn't 
    AmranuEryl
  • VinzentVinzent Member Posts: 362 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited January 29
    What exactly is the protection of shield when you have low int? I died to a single dry BBT from 62%. Having it done after the fact without shield, BBT did 58%.

    Edit: I should add that normal Tekura combos were near identical in terms of damage as well, with and without shield. This is with eleven int, at sixteen a normal BBT dropped to 47%.
  • VenariVenari Member Posts: 28
    I'll add to what @Taryius said. The hunting is really good. I'm not squishy, and I do fast dps (as low as 1.35 seconds a hit). Thats with 18 Intellect, and L2 collar. Not sure why @Shecks says the hunting is bad, or slow. 
  • DochithaDochitha Member Posts: 1,475 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited January 29
    Saonji said:
    Dochitha said:
    You can't wield a shield while pvp. You can wield a shield when hunting.
    This is a bit misleading. You can wield a shield while using wrack, which is suboptimal for hunting with...

    You can wield shield knife and trace while hunting, my dear.
  • GurklukkeGurklukke Member Posts: 131 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    When will HELP ARTEFACTS PARIAH be a thing, my credit card is itching.

    Thank you.
  • ShecksShecks Member Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 29
    Makarios said:
    I wouldn't undervalue the potence of dust in its current state. An entirely reactive way to guarantee you being the first target isn't going to work out is very useful, before we get into the typical blackwind/astralform utility. This has psychological value too; after the first few times capable leaders will have to simply assume its up on a rush or risk one of the infamous "wait, who are we hitting again?" moments on a rush. Getting the initiation is one of the few advantages the attacking group can be assured of, so making leaders hesitant to make you the beneficiary of it is a rare thing.

    This seems like a good way of seeing it, however I don't think that in general Pariahs would ever be first target anyways as they pose very little actual threat to a raid group relative to pretty much anybody else.  Also, I give it a couple months before using Dust in any form of combat is suicide, as it's a channel and doesn't proc off of any affliction attacks that don't do damage (e.g. doublestab, curses, telepathy,  etc).  It's also fairly easy to drop it by just using prone or any writhable affliction, etc.  Being realistic, towards the application you're mentioning here, I'd much rather shield, fly, lyre, burrow, leave room, use wand of reflections, or tumble before I used Dust.  If your dust completes, that pretty much means you could have just walked away or used Leap/Mountjump much earlier, so why risk trying Dust?.   In my opinion the only use case for dust is sneaking into areas (cities), or perhaps running through chokepoints. 

    I'll not comment too much on death sickness. I think what I consider the biggest implications there haven't really been discussed yet, and that is namely how it shifts optimal team strategy when its in play away from pure burst and to afflictions. Maybe it won't be significant enough to balance those scales, we will see.

    I simply do not understand how or why this would change teamfight strategy.  
    1) they won't know if you're using it or not
    2) likelihood of a teamfight raid leader actually having entire group change their attacks for specific targets is low - it's hard enough getting them to hit the same person
    3) even if you are using sickness, you still die - and will die twice.  You are basically giving yourself a debuff on the off-chance that you'll give someone else a debuff, on the offchance that it actually hinders them.
    4) you're actually giving a defence to your enemies if they get the sickness, if your group has any DWs in it (as now they're immune to your team's Aeon).



    I will say what I consider the two most powerful things in the Pariah's raid kit are both rituals. One is something that is not something that can be expected to be held with any regularity (and this is reflected by its strength), the other can be used frequently enough once it is found that it will need to be a consideration in teamfights. Also for those wondering, the people who tested Pariah do not know what the rituals do - they're working with the same information as you as of this time.

    I figured this was the case, however we are still struggling to find any of these (and I have tried for many hours!) so hard to include this in the commentary.



    To reiterate, I was just sharing a commentary and some thoughts with my notes above.  Some things could be incorrect, or purely subjective opinion.  Even if I'm wrong about something, please bear in mind that I've spent nearly every waking moment working with this class, since release - so I'd say that if I have a misunderstanding about how something works at this point, it's probably an indication that it could use better explanation in AB files or something like that. 

    And while some forum warriors probably don't understand or accept this, I know more about combat than the vast majority of the of the Achaea playerbase - so if I'm struggling to understand something, it can be assumed most other people picking up the class would too.   From a game design perspective, seeing thing that someone like me is misunderstanding or failing to use correctly at this stage is still very valuable information, even if I'm wrong about it.  That said, I don't think I'm wrong about most of it, after reading the comments.  Most of it is just kneejerk automatic "you're wrong about everything" nonsense that doesn't match actual experience with the class.
    Carbine
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,542 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I have a question actually. Will the sickness stick to the person who gets the killing blow or to anyone who Co tributes to it? I mean, I assume the former, but the latter would make it all the more interesting.


    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • SaonjiSaonji Member Posts: 1,014 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited January 29
    Shecks said:
    To reiterate, I was just sharing a commentary and some thoughts with my notes above.  Some things could be incorrect, or purely subjective opinion.  Even if I'm wrong about something, please bear in mind that I've spent nearly every waking moment working with this class, since release - so I'd say that if I have a misunderstanding about how something works at this point, it's probably an indication that it could use better explanation in AB files or something like that.

    Just because you supposedly spent more time on something, doesn't inherently mean you know more about it than anyone else. I spent close to twelve hours working out the basics of the class, so that I could give my guide out to the entire game. Before moving on to ironing things out further for myself. I've also actually used the class in real fights.


    And while some forum warriors probably don't understand or accept this, I know more about combat than the vast majority of the of the Achaea playerbase - so if I'm struggling to understand something, it can be assumed most other people picking up the class would too.   From a game design perspective, seeing thing that someone like me is misunderstanding or failing to use correctly at this stage is still very valuable information, even if I'm wrong about it.  That said, I don't think I'm wrong about most of it, after reading the comments.  Most of it is just kneejerk automatic "you're wrong about everything" nonsense that doesn't match actual experience with the class.

    You don't know more than the vast majority. You first tried arguing that a classless person with a handaxe, is more scarier than Pariah. Then you backpedaled and said the class is amazing and "can't wait to abuse it" even though your history of combat in the game, is painfully average at your very best. Now you're coming to this thread, backpedaling again in some weak attempt to try say the class is bad.
    -->continuing outside of quote box.
    You tried to argue that Pariah doesn't get access to weaponry, because of torso breaks/salve locks, which is frankly absurd. If they did have access to weaponry, that isn't even going to be a consideration considering you'd lose both your epitaph chain as well as your expose timing. They don't get access to weaponry explictly because of slickness/anorexia throws (there's a reason those are tied specifically to Virulence). Torso breaks and salve locks literally weren't even a consideration.
    That said, I don't think I'm wrong about most of it, after reading the comments.  Most of it is just kneejerk automatic "you're wrong about everything" nonsense that doesn't match actual experience with the class.
    Just because you think you're not wrong about it, doesn't mean you're not.
    - You tried saying they can't attack with 1 arm broken, which was wrong.
    - You tried saying Pariah -requires- coding and tracking to play, which is wrong.
    - You tried saying Pariah has awful bashing, which is wrong.
    - You tried arguing they need prone to stop earring. Which they should have some access to prone, but because of actives that require prone to block. Not to stop earring. That was just another one of your absurd arguments related to your failed earring thread.
    - The majority of your points were non-factors at best and, at worst, simply proving your lack of actual experience with using the class. So far I haven't seen you kill anyone whatsoever with it, or even come close to it. Literally all you've done is show some absurd, context-less log to show they can do 11 affs 'at once' (even though in practice, that isn't going to even remotely happen).

    The fact you scream and whine like a petulant fucking child and call anyone who disagrees with you a 'forum warrior' just shows how you really are, Shecks. You don't want to debate, or discuss anything, you want to try and throw out your irrelevant and useless, baseless knowledge as fact, even though you have no experience whatsoever. You need to stop posting, then do some self-reflection to consider that maybe, just maybe, you're not nearly as good or knowledgeable as you think you are.

    Dochitha said:
    You can wield shield knife and trace while hunting, my dear.

    Fair enough, you couldn't when I first tested it, that's good to know. The condescension was a bit weird, though.

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