Mhaldor vs Targossas

Crixos

HELP WAR

- Soldiers are NOT OPEN PK.

- Soldiers are NOT OPEN PK.

- Soldiers are NOT OPEN PK.

- Kills for tanks and sanctions count from anywhere in the game.

Normal sanctioned raid.

While a sanctioned raid is ongoing, all enlisted soldiers of the defending city are open to attack from the offending party. This applies whether or not they have actively engaged in combat, but only applies while within the city itself and cannot be pursued outside the walls.

Are soldiers open-pk during these global sanctions?

Big Papa Jomi

Damn and that’s why it was good that Legates couldn’t read. One of them can and now look 🤦🏾‍♂️ 

Minifie

That's just standard rules by the looks, if you get a sanction even outside the walls, you can dart into the city and start pking soldiers, you can't go ganking soldiers bashing in sirocco after getting the sanction, they have to be in the city itself.

Saonji

Minifie said:

That's just standard rules by the looks, if you get a sanction even outside the walls, you can dart into the city and start pking soldiers, you can't go ganking soldiers bashing in sirocco after getting the sanction, they have to be in the city itself.

I think the confusion stems from the fact that kills outside of the walls count towards sanctions/tanks during wartime, whereas they don't during a normal raid. He's asking if you can go and kill soldiers anywhere, since they count anywhere.

Veldrin

soldiers are only open-pk while within the city walls of the city that's been sanctioned, not anywhere else.

Saonji

HELP WAR doesn't specify what Crixos is asking, hence asking it in the first place.

Accipiter

It specifically says they aren't open PK. That rule is rescinded in the one specific case of there being a sanction and they are in the city. Very open and shut, no further clarification required.

Saonji

Except kills for tanks count even outside the walls, during war. They don't outside of wartime. So there's virtually no reason to pursue them outside of the city, during a normal raid. Whereas there is during war.

Ergo, more clarification is needed. Neither HELP WAR, nor HELP RAIDING specify what Crixos was asking. Y'all are literally just assuming, which helps nobody. If you don't actually know the answer, you don't have to respond.

Veldrin

While a sanctioned raid is ongoing, all enlisted soldiers of the defending city are open to attack from the offending party. This applies whether or not they have actively engaged in combat, but only applies while within the city itself and cannot be pursued outside the walls.

It says right there, only within the walls, outside the walls they are not open pk, no ifs, no buts, soldiers are never open-pk except for that one clause which is 'when they are in their home city'. If you want to keep arguing then HELP WAR and the announcement post would overwrite HELP RAIDING and make it so soldiers are NEVER open-pk while a war is ongoing.

Accipiter

but only applies while within the city itself and cannot be pursued outside the walls

It answers the question specifically. No clarification needed when you ask 'Are they open pk outside the walls?'. The only sentence that says anything about them being open PK then goes on to say 'only applies while within the city itself'. It is like asking 'Well, what if they have red hair, are they open pk then?' the answer is no, only if they are inside the city walls during a sanction.

Let's go for some more. Are they open pk if they are naked? Not unless there is a sanction and in the city. Are they open pk if they defile a shrine? Nope, standard shrine responses apply unless they are in a city during a sanction.

This is fun, ask some more, I am willing to clarify for you.

Saonji

Accipiter said:

I am willing to clarify for you.

You haven't actually clarified anything, since you're still just assuming. This is the first time the new war system's been used, and has already been stated some things are still being worked out.

Crixos' question is still valid.

Accipiter

Rules As Written are clear. Not open PK unless inside a city with a sanction against it. If the admin decide to change that it is a change, but as it stands there is no room for interpretation.

Cooper

Saonji said:

Except kills for tanks count even outside the walls, during war. They don't outside of wartime. So there's virtually no reason to pursue them outside of the city, during a normal raid. Whereas there is during war.

Ergo, more clarification is needed. Neither HELP WAR, nor HELP RAIDING specify what Crixos was asking. Y'all are literally just assuming, which helps nobody. If you don't actually know the answer, you don't have to respond.

The help file is very clear, soldiers are only able to be attacked in a city if you have a sanction going.

Crixos

My thought process: 
  Kills count globally for tanks and sanctions
  Therefore, during a sanction and possible tank, the walls of the city are considered to be Achaea-wide.

Why this distinction that kills count globally for tanks if it's not the case?  Is it to promote the hidden-tanks we've seen?

That being said, it was a bit odd to me so we haven't followed my thought process above so yes, as Saonji's mentioned it's for clarification.




RE: Accipiter's claim about shrine PK - "....Are they open pk if they defile a shrine? Nope, standard shrine responses apply unless they are in a city during a sanction."

  There's usually a bit of leeway between participants.  Both parties know what each other is there for so in my experience, PK laws aren't followed to the letter of the law between the usual suspects.  Not that it applies here, but you're the one who brought it up.

Adrik

Y'all are all like perma-infamous (because attacking eachother / guards during war = INFAMY FOR EVERYONE TO GET IN ON THE FUN!).

Just go gank other infamous ppl on the opposite side and have fun.

Thaisen

Why do you guys do this? The help file is pretty clear in my opinion, along with the myriad of announcements that have gone out.

This is why we can’t have nice things!!!

Accipiter

Crixos said:

My thought process: 
  Kills count globally for tanks and sanctions
  Therefore, during a sanction and possible tank, the walls of the city are considered to be Achaea-wide.

Why this distinction that kills count globally for tanks if it's not the case?  Is it to promote the hidden-tanks we've seen?

That being said, it was a bit odd to me so we haven't followed my thought process above so yes, as Saonji's mentioned it's for clarification.




RE: Accipiter's claim about shrine PK - "....Are they open pk if they defile a shrine? Nope, standard shrine responses apply unless they are in a city during a sanction."

  There's usually a bit of leeway between participants.  Both parties know what each other is there for so in my experience, PK laws aren't followed to the letter of the law between the usual suspects.  Not that it applies here, but you're the one who brought it up.

Well PK rules aren't enforced until someone brings them up. I assume it is for things like people fielding a group and engaging on open ground where everyone has agreed not to issue about it. But if you see a soldier out and about clearly not wanting to be a part of the PVP going on, don't be a jerk and jump them to add to your sanction. It also means you can launch a counter attack and advance sanction in the opposing city using the kills you get from defence.

Crixos

Do what?  Ask for clarification?

And yes, I now know the popular opinion and interpretation.

Atalkez

I interpret it the same as Crixos. They aren’t open PK for us to farm sanctions, but once it’s up I don’t see why not. If they count from anywhere, should be able to be attacked from anywhere. Otherwise what’s the distinction for?

Achilles

No, you can't go kill soldiers outside the city, if the fight spills out into clouds/outside a city/sewers it's cool they count towards the tank but this doesn't license you to go kill some random, non-infamy soldier hunting in Dun Fortress.

Infamy, bounties, contracts, being in the city is plenty of fighting, don't be a dick.

Archaeon

i think this needs to be stress tested. 

Big Papa Jomi

Alright, but what about (using a scenario cuz idk how to explain it) Mhaldor raids Targossas. Mhaldor loses the raid, BUT, because of how the war system works, Targossas now has a sanction in Mhaldor. Most Mhaldorians lost infamy from dying. Does Targossas have free reign to attack them within the Mhaldor without Mhaldor soldiers initiating a defense yet?

Davok

They do, as I understand it, because soldiers are open PK, inside of their city, during a sanction. 

Veldrin

if they are Mhaldorian soldiers inside the city of Mhaldor then yes. Same the other way around. If the soldiers are hanging out -outside- the city proper then they can't be touched due to sanction.

The only thing that has changed is how you get sanction, nothing else about sanction has changed.


edit: new announce

Big Papa Jomi

Yeah I just realized, I was confused and my question fell into the part about getting -sanction-. Can't attack soldiers to get a sanction UNTIL the soldiers engage.

Saonji

Big Papa Jomi said:

Alright, but what about (using a scenario cuz idk how to explain it) Mhaldor raids Targossas. Mhaldor loses the raid, BUT, because of how the war system works, Targossas now has a sanction in Mhaldor. Most Mhaldorians lost infamy from dying. Does Targossas have free reign to attack them within the Mhaldor without Mhaldor soldiers initiating a defense yet?

They have free reign to attack soldiers / allies of Mhaldor, yes.

It's kinda weird you can get sanctions while defending, I guess it could allow for some odd maneuvers though. Like a Serpent sitting phased waiting, then popping into the other city and dropping a tank without them realising, and said tank continues charging on the deaths they get while defending.

Iaxus

For my own clarity, city defendables are technically outside city walls, correct? Or is that the common sense Icky mentioned?

An example based off Jomi's: Mhaldor raids Targ. Loses. Targ gets sanction, invades Mhaldor. Mhaldor then regroups at defendable instead of say Stygian, to prep. Following the letter of the rules that would make the Mhaldor defending force safe until reentering? Or is that the common sense of "It's clear they're preparing a retaliatory strike, not off on Prin hunting, therefore they're able to be attacked"? 

This is why I don't like the whole "use common sense" argument. It may be good most of the time, but unless there are clear directions one person is going to take a specific situation differently than the next.

Accipiter

Yes, you are allowed to regroup outside the city safely, no matter if it is one room away from the city or across the continent. Logically this makes sense since there would be no point in rallying at defendable anyway since all rooms are only an earring away anyway and no raid is going to be in LoS of defendable.

Dragonknight

The automated war news post:



Anyone else get them breaking the website news reader/ IRE Browser Addon?

Looks like they are inputting stuff into the wrong columns.

Archaeon

@Mezghar you can fuck right off