Hashan Thread

Kybrae

Silas said:

That's not quite what we're saying. All Orders have reached a point where it doesn't make sense to keep raising shrines when you know you can't maintain them; that's fine. The problem is when people (like Deladan) act like shrines just aren't a big deal.

Achaea is a game based around conflict: shrines are a conflict mechanism. If you continually downplay a mechanism of conflict in a conflict-driven game, something is wrong.

On an OOC level, I love shrines and how much conflict they bring. I'm ever amused when someone decides to defile, EXCEPT when they gank, kill-room, or bait-and-kill. I mean, when a person goes and hits one, or two shrines I'm like 'game on' or was when I still was an occultist, (still ain't used to alchemist ) I generally knew I was going to die, didnt' care, I enjoyed the conflict. Now it's when people take things too far, and that's the reason why the Order doesn't let it get to them, BECAUSE of the fact that people take it too far.

Deladan is in fact right that a majority of the Order does not care about the shrines. They have their uses, and their purposes, and they do what they should do and cause conflict, but there is a line. And the so perceived apathy is the roleplaying mechannism as well. 

Some groups care, and some don't. Twilight's order seems to be one that does not.

I mean, by all means, go ahead attack the shrines, that's your role in this piece, I'm all for people sticking to their roles. Your role is the vanishing Darkness from the world, and the Dark order's is the side of Darkness, and what can be perceived as apathy, but it really isn't. 

All I'm saying is it's in the roleplay to "not care". Deladan's character -used- to care about shrines, but it's all about the roleplay man. All about the roleplay.

Vayne

Please stop posting, @Deladan.

Kybrae

I must state now though that I think that this bit of conflict will be good for Hashan. Hashan has never really HAD such conflict, so yes... this is Hashan's time, and the decisions made now will determine how Hashan goes and what Hashan becomes.

No, Hashan does not have much experience in raids, and raid defense but each time she is attacked, Hashan learns and grows more. On an OOC level, I see that the odds are in fact stacked against Hashan, however the city won't be the same after this. That post was correct; Hashan's time has come. You can't learn to defend against a raid if you're not really raided much. 

And, Hashan is learning.

Cinya

Vayne said:

Please stop posting, @Deladan.

Quoted for emphasis, and to add - please don't judge all of Hashan based on him.  

Would also like to briefly reiterate that yes, an unwillingness to RP a loss is a universal problem (unlike Deladan, who appears to be a very concentrated problem). I had quite a few not-usually-this-lulzy *shallamese tell me essentially "lol, we don't give a single fuck about our city being destroyed, it's cool, we're getting a new one anyways." 

Granted, as @Cooper, pointed out, no *shallamese should have any desire or reason to give Cinya any satisfaction... but I was hoping for at least a "eff you, we'll be back, and stronger for it!" 

This happens in every faction on a regular basis and always strikes me as a bit lame. 

Cinya

Oh, and I'll follow the double-posting fad to point out that "not caring about shrines" is still a little dubious as a stance, even if your Divine endorses it. 

If your God tells you to protect His shrines, you protect His shrines. If He tells you not to worry... you can be a little more lax about it, but it's still a matter of pride, public image, and reverence. Ideally you should be intrinsically motivated enough to at least semi-frequently care about these things if you care enough to be a member in the first place. 

Delphinus

Except, you know, it's a tedious mechanic and just not fun to play with. In a game.

So, there's that.

Cinya

Delphinus said:

Except, you know, it's a tedious mechanic and just not fun to play with. In a game.

So, there's that.

...which is when you pull a Babel and don't raise them to begin with. Easy solution, really. 

Kybrae

Cinya said:

Vayne said:

Please stop posting, @Deladan.

Quoted for emphasis, and to add - please don't judge all of Hashan based on him.  

Would also like to briefly reiterate that yes, an unwillingness to RP a loss is a universal problem (unlike Deladan, who appears to be a very concentrated problem). I had quite a few not-usually-this-lulzy *shallamese tell me essentially "lol, we don't care about our city being destroyed, it's cool, we're getting a new one anyways." 

Granted, as @Cooper, pointed out, no *shallamese should have any desire or reason to give Cinya any satisfaction... but I was hoping for at least a "fuck you, we'll be back, and stronger for it!" 

If in his mind, it was a loss. I'm quite sure he'd RP it as such.

IG and OOC there will always be people who do not care. Do not care about death, do not care about life, love, ex cetera. What do you expect people to do, "Oh we lost a shrine now we must cut ourselves" or "must do something self destructive"? , it's all about perception. It's what makes everybody different. If someone doesn't care, so what? There REALLY is nothing you can do to make somebody care about something if they see no reason to. 

Kybrae

Cinya said:

Oh, and I'll follow the double-posting fad to point out that "not caring about shrines" is still a little dubious as a stance, even if your Divine endorses it. 

If your God tells you to protect His shrines, you protect His shrines. If He tells you not to worry... you can be a little more lax about it, but it's still a matter of pride, public image, and reverence. Ideally you should be intrinsically motivated enough to at least semi-frequently care about these things if you care enough to be a member in the first place. 

point missed.

Apparently you've not really read the posts... you see, if you did you'll note that neither myself, nor Deladan said we NEVER cared, nor defended shrines. We said that a majority of times it was pointless to deal with them.

We re-raise shrines, we do defend if there is a reason

Deladan

oh oh people would like it better if I did OHHHHHHHHHHH NO WE LOST A SHINE _SLIT WRISTS IRL_ yeah screw that. Ooc or ic not gonna happen

Delphinus

Cinya said:

Delphinus said:

Except, you know, it's a tedious mechanic and just not fun to play with. In a game.

So, there's that.

...which is when you pull a Babel and don't raise them to begin with. Easy solution, really. 

And if someone else is sparking a new conflict (be it a faction or a lone person), you... what, dismantle them preemptively?

When Proficy used to defile, I'd rally people to defend the shrines -- until I realised that he had no intention of stopping, ever, and all of his time spent logged in was bashing to defile. I'd no intention of sitting at his constant beck and call, so I ignored it.

Tanris

Need facepalm reaction to posts please.

Can't even figure out a coherent response to that.

Kybrae

Okay, my final statement of the matter, then I'll probably go back to creeping the forums and not posting:

You complain about roleplaying: 

To make a big deal out of, or to totally care and center one's life around the Shrines is AGAINST the roleplay of the Dark Order. It simply isn't something done. And, that is the ROLEPLAY of the Order. I am quite sure that if Deladan, or myself was in an Order where the roleplay was to care more about the shrines, we would (still not to the point of slitting one's wrists irl'ly). 

I reiterate my earlier statement: It's all about the roleplay man, all about the roleplay.

Delphinus said:

Cinya said:

Delphinus said:

Except, you know, it's a tedious mechanic and just not fun to play with. In a game.

So, there's that.

...which is when you pull a Babel and don't raise them to begin with. Easy solution, really. 

And if someone else is sparking a new conflict (be it a faction or a lone person), you... what, dismantle them preemptively?

When Proficy used to defile, I'd rally people to defend the shrines -- until I realised that he had no intention of stopping, ever, and all of his time spent logged in was bashing to defile. I'd no intention of sitting at his constant beck and call, so I ignored it.

Shrines are not the only conflict devices in Achaea. Hell, Orders themselves even without shrines are conflicts (i.e. the current ones of Light)

there are so many choices to do in Achaea, just because someone cares about shrines doesn't mean EVERYBODY must. Some people care for roleplay, some do not, some care for bashing, others do not, and some care for combat whiles do not. There is so much to do in Achaea that it isn't all about one thing or another. End of story, and I've said my piece.

Hegua

Tanris said:

Need facepalm reaction to posts please.

Can't even figure out a coherent response to that.

I just like them instead. *shifty*

Deladan

I could post on and on about how people say oh deladan isn't rping the loss he's taken from shrines being down. Uh I haven't lost anything really. I've been told not to defend shrines before, hell when I was being recruited to the order I was still enemied for dropping twilight shrines... Soooooooo where in this do you get that he should care about them? The fact that he used to drop them or the fact that he's been told not to care by his Divine and by the order. I swear some of you people are denser than bricks.... and I'm trying to be nice because its a new year but you guys need to think before you post, I mean like you should spend days writing a post not a few minutes....  The fact that not only have I had to explain why Twilight's order doesn't really care but others have had to explain it as well just means that you people can't read. I tried telling you people in plain everyday english and kybrae went and posted eloquently about it. We do not care. Shallam is winning a shrine war against an order that doesn't care whooo hooo.

Tanris

@Delphinus:
Any mechanic taken to an extreme becomes obnoxious. Basing the merits of a system off of those cenarios would make the entire of Achaea conflict pretty awful (probably conflict in any MMO, actually).

Cinya

Deladan said:

you guys need to think before you post, I mean like you should spend days writing a post not a few minutes.... 

Oh, the irony. I'm stepping out of this. 

@Deladan and @Kybrae, I respectfully disagree. I propose we coexist happily in our separate orders. 

Delphinus

@Tanris: I know. I'm just saying that there are, in fact, situations where you'd be very eager to shrug and not care. Depending on the person, those situations can become the norm.

I was having some serious I-can't-deal-with-this moments until Kastalia took me aside and told me, hey, they're just shrines. So, I stopped worrying as much -- and I was able to continue playing as a result.

Vayne

I think the proper in-character sentiment would be, even if your god does not put particular emphasis on the importance and or sanctity of shines, to recognize that it is a shrine, an object dedicated to the honor of said god and should be treat them as such. The god's essence is lost when a shrine is dropped and it does take willpower and effort to gather the essence to reraise them, as annoying as some find the mechanic. I think too often we tear down the shrine system to a basic mechanic and lose any of the significance it has in the game world.

tl;dr
Shrines should be RP'd more as sacred and too many strip them down to just an annoying mechanic.

Ruth

I was semi-asleep on my bed, but I read this and lol'd so much at these Deladan and Kybrae posts I had to wake up.

Can I have more, please?

Aliath

Problem with shrine combat is that in at least 9 out of 10 cases (at least in my experience) it falls under two areas...

1. Lol you cannot touch us (Offplane defiling, time zone abuse, large group with gold/big corpses, etc...)

2. Gank anyone that enters the room (Doesn't matter if they witness, start combat or not, moment they enter, they are attacked by 2 or more people)

Fail to see how either promotes conflict, albeit we are getting off topic here really, start another thread about shrines if need be.

Cooper

Kybrae said:

Cinya said:

Vayne said:

Please stop posting, @Deladan.

Quoted for emphasis, and to add - please don't judge all of Hashan based on him.  

Would also like to briefly reiterate that yes, an unwillingness to RP a loss is a universal problem (unlike Deladan, who appears to be a very concentrated problem). I had quite a few not-usually-this-lulzy *shallamese tell me essentially "lol, we don't care about our city being destroyed, it's cool, we're getting a new one anyways." 

Granted, as @Cooper, pointed out, no *shallamese should have any desire or reason to give Cinya any satisfaction... but I was hoping for at least a "fuck you, we'll be back, and stronger for it!" 

If in his mind, it was a loss. I'm quite sure he'd RP it as such.

IG and OOC there will always be people who do not care. Do not care about death, do not care about life, love, ex cetera. What do you expect people to do, "Oh we lost a shrine now we must cut ourselves" or "must do something self destructive"? , it's all about perception. It's what makes everybody different. If someone doesn't care, so what? There REALLY is nothing you can do to make somebody care about something if they see no reason to. 

@Cinya - It sounds like you just tried to talk with a bunch of r-tards. Ignore those people and try to talk to the people who will at least entertain you with a valid response. For instance, if you had talked to me IG about you or *shallam you probably would have been surprised at what I had to say.

@Kybrae - what you just said is exactly the problem. Deladan doesn't care IC or OOC about the shrines. That is the problem. It was a loss, and a very significant one. This isn't one of those grey areas where you can lean either way if you want. Shrines are important (for the reason Silas very eloquently said earlier). That you think people can decide if they are or aren't is also part of the problem.

@Jacen - Apologies for my sort of rude post ("Nice try" or whatever it was). I had several beers at that point and shouldn't have been so snarky at you guys for trying. Keep it up, we definitely do need conflict with someone other than Ashtan.

Jacen

@Cooper no problem, I took it the spirit of competition

Wattsee

Tanris said:

Shrines are there both as an indication of influence, although not a very good one (Lupus' order probably had more than anyone at one point, but didn't really have world influence) but also as a mechanism to create conflict. If that mechanism is proving not to be enjoyable, there is probably no shortage of ways for you to make a decision to reevaluate your shrine placement strategy IC.

Connecting with my previous statements about shrines, I fully agree with yours as well. Shrines, whether relevant on and OOC level (useful or just there for no reason) should be seen as important by any character following that Divine. Even if your Divine suggests you take it easy and not fret over shrines, it's still the -most- effective way for a mortal to show devotion to their Divine (game-mechanically-speaking).

While active, Lupus didn't come out and overtly say over OT if shrines were important or not. We as Pack members considered them extremely important. Rushing in and losing our lives, only to have our bodies used as defilement-fuel was never forced upon us, though there have been plenty of cases where we have claimed witness-writs. Hunting our asses off to keep up with the defilement of an entire City? Yeah, we can handle that.

I can recall times where we lost ~100 shrines in a 24 hour period. I can also recall the pride we felt as hunters at not only keeping pace with their rebuilding, but doing it faster than a force five times our number could. Also, there have been times where only five shrines were being dropped in a relatively short time span, but no one could devote much time to it and we chose to let things be, rather than feel OOC obligation or pressure to play a game. We rebuilt the shrines later, when the time was fitting for our Order.

Conflict within Hashan could easily be heightened with shrine conflict (though I hope it's at least possible to have a two-way battle). From my experience in the Pack, I hope it serves to bond Hashan, more than instigate fights. Shrines and Divine are something that can bring us together into a much more solidified stance/direction.

Hopefully my ramble changes OOC stances from "lulz shrines" to "hmm, maybe we can use this game mechanic (even if it's considered crappy) to encourage a certain mindset/movement within the game."

Kybrae

This thread is getting very off-topic, I agree we, (or you, I've already said my piece, stated my thoughts. Nothing more to be said) should take this to another thread.

Now, back ON topic, (if you did not notice the thread is about Hashan) I actually quite honestly am awaiting these raids promised to us by the Refugees. Raids can be good. Win, or lose raids have the potential to change Hashan, for the better or worse. Which way it goes depends on the city itself. 

Trey

You know, I used to have a fairly low opinion of Deladan's intelligence in the past based on our interactions. It took several years and the content of his posts in this thread to change that.

I now have an -incredibly- low opinion. Holy shit stop posting, you're a young man, you have so much to live for! Don't do it!

Deladan

@cooper You are correct Sir! We finally have a winner. And of course people that had actually been around during the Rp that led up to this would know why... but you most of you weren't. And I really do wish I had a -explicit- to give, but sadly today I am all out.

Deladan

@wattsee I see where you are coming from and you're correct, but when you have one side hitting shrines when they don't even have any to hit back, eh not worth it, as far as I see it they're just abusing game mechanics and I'll continue to laugh at this entire thing while some of you continue to encourage it. If Twilight's order wanted to keep pace with the droppings we probably could, we have a ton of dragons.

Jacen

@*Shallam call me when you're dropping a Twilight shrine, I'll come defend. Not in the order so I don't know when you're doing it. 

Oh, make it legit, too

Sothantos tells you, "A herald of Darkness asked me to tell you "OMG they're dropping a shrine at XXX, haallllpppp!!!!", have a nice day."

Silas

Will add that trigger to the defile message.