Forays: A Review.

Meriet

A review of two-person Aran'kesh:
The damage is fine, and risky but doable and fun, but Aran'kesh has sooooo much HP it's impossible with only one fighter fighting them - we were critting the beasties left and right and got to the boss with over 10 minutes left but still couldn't make it. It would be fine if [a certain mechanic] wasn't necessary in two-person Aran'kesh though, I imagine.

Santar

Aran'kesh  minimum foray size should be changed to 3. Similar to how minimum for mirror is 4.

Silas

Phaestus said:

Armali said:

I'm not sure a 100% increase in people justifies an effect 100% increase in DPS from mobs. I assume they also scale up their damage along with the attack speed.

You assume incorrectly, in more ways than one.

I know you said your responses weren't meant to be terse, but that's exactly how this comes across. This is in no way a helpful response. If people are incorrect on something, tell them how, don't just tell them they're wrong. It's infuriating.

Cooper

Phaestus said:

Armali said:

I'm not sure a 100% increase in people justifies an effect 100% increase in DPS from mobs. I assume they also scale up their damage along with the attack speed.

You assume incorrectly, in more ways than one.

How is this type of comment helpful at all?

You are an admin of this game some of us have paid thousands of dollars to play, act like it.

It is getting clearer every day that the admins have lost touch with what players want and need. Glad I stopped spending last year.

Glathna

Aran'kesh used to be a fun, and reasonably challenging foray, but since the recent tuning, has turned into a nightmare. There are more denizens then ever before; the denizens are all hit sponges; and the timer is far too short to clear the village and have a reasonable time to kill Aran'kesh. I have tried with parties of 3 and 4, and all of them have been varying degrees of awful.

Wishlist:
1. A way to code it so the formula takes into account which artifacts the party has.
2. A way to take into account the size, health, level, etc, that makes up the party.
3. A way to add and remove number of denizens depending on party size and criteria above.
4. Longer timers on all of them.
5. Faster reset times on the forays.


Other than that, I actually agree with Astarod's ideas.

Adrik

Some of the forays definitely do not have the time off (especially with larger groups).

The ideal time is that the groups should get to the boss with about 20ish minutes left on the timer. This helps account for 2, maybe 3 wipes, and still gives time to clear up issues. (Icosse's you have to get rid of old thrall to get new one, etc).

From what I've seen, Mirror Tower has a LOT of time (Good). Other forays, like Barrows, might need to have their time upped to 1 hour each.

If it isn't too lag intensive on the server-- potentially also add in a 2nd set of forays for each one. Does it make sense that there are two Aran'keshes that exist? Not really. Does it make sense that we are killing this giant bird and all it's underlings every hour or so? Not really. So for the sake of 'fun'... Just having them be more frequent makes everyone happy.

Astarod

Adrik said:

Some of the forays definitely do not have the time off (especially with larger groups).

The ideal time is that the groups should get to the boss with about 20ish minutes left on the timer. This helps account for 2, maybe 3 wipes, and still gives time to clear up issues. (Icosse's you have to get rid of old thrall to get new one, etc).

From what I've seen, Mirror Tower has a LOT of time (Good). Other forays, like Barrows, might need to have their time upped to 1 hour each.

If it isn't too lag intensive on the server-- potentially also add in a 2nd set of forays for each one. Does it make sense that there are two Aran'keshes that exist? Not really. Does it make sense that we are killing this giant bird and all it's underlings every hour or so? Not really. So for the sake of 'fun'... Just having them be more frequent makes everyone happy.

I mean, you could carbon copy the foray, throw on a new texture pack and call it, "Bolum'pesh" and people would still be happy killing some kind of bird protected by birdtype_1, birdtype_2, and animaltype_3 and assembling harpoonloookalike_5. 

Silas

Astarod said:

Adrik said:

Some of the forays definitely do not have the time off (especially with larger groups).

The ideal time is that the groups should get to the boss with about 20ish minutes left on the timer. This helps account for 2, maybe 3 wipes, and still gives time to clear up issues. (Icosse's you have to get rid of old thrall to get new one, etc).

From what I've seen, Mirror Tower has a LOT of time (Good). Other forays, like Barrows, might need to have their time upped to 1 hour each.

If it isn't too lag intensive on the server-- potentially also add in a 2nd set of forays for each one. Does it make sense that there are two Aran'keshes that exist? Not really. Does it make sense that we are killing this giant bird and all it's underlings every hour or so? Not really. So for the sake of 'fun'... Just having them be more frequent makes everyone happy.

I mean, you could carbon copy the foray, throw on a new texture pack and call it, "Bolum'pesh" and people would still be happy killing some kind of bird protected by birdtype_1, birdtype_2, and animaltype_3 and assembling harpoonloookalike_5. 

Please don't let @Astarod name things.

Big Papa Jomi

I don’t know, Bolum’pesh has a nice ring to it.

Achilles

Silas'tesh
Jomi'tesh
Adrik'tesh
Kog'tesh
Chubbs'tesh
I cant think of any eleusians who foray

Bonus boss
Tesh'a

Kog

Badum'tesh, and all trash mobs are lame jokes.

Zbaco

Badum'ting?

Phaestus

We've gone ahead and lowered the sheer number of mobs that larger groups of players had to contend with, which should bring timers more in line with reality. We'll tweak spawns up or down as necessary, but bringing a larger group shouldn't feel nearly as punishing when dealing with masses of mobs.

We've also gone through and cleaned up instances where certain mobs (looking at you, thrall) were doing significantly more damage on certain attacks than they should have been.

As always, we're monitoring how these changes will pan out in game, and are keeping an eye out for feedback from those who are actively testing the content.

Edit: this should also help mitigate issues with players feeling forced to wait for larger stacks of denizens to disperse.

Santar

I definitely noticed the difference when doing mirror tower. I kept thinking like, "Where is the group of 7 shades that is going to make us slow down and carefully lure?" but there just wasn't a stack of 7 shades to be found. 

Finished it just a second ago with 4. 

Adrik

Phaestus said:

We've gone ahead and lowered the sheer number of mobs that larger groups of players had to contend with, which should bring timers more in line with reality. We'll tweak spawns up or down as necessary, but bringing a larger group shouldn't feel nearly as punishing when dealing with masses of mobs.

We've also gone through and cleaned up instances where certain mobs (looking at you, thrall) were doing significantly more damage on certain attacks than they should have been.

As always, we're monitoring how these changes will pan out in game, and are keeping an eye out for feedback from those who are actively testing the content.

Edit: this should also help mitigate issues with players feeling forced to wait for larger stacks of denizens to disperse.

Thank god-- or.. I guess @Phaestus :?

This is wonderful to hear/see that we don't have to deal with the sheer amount of enemies. Certain forays were more-or-less just wading through trash for 30 minutes and having 10 minutes (maybe) to deal with the boss. So reduction in enemies is wonderful.

Armali

H:7235 M:6194 E:35460 W:30446 -ex ( [] [0]) 10:54:43.67-

Emanating laughter which is a mockery of human mirth, Vulkuz, Barrow-lord of the Darkenwood sends tendrils of shadow to afflict 

all around him.

You are confused as to the effects of the venom.

H:3915 M:6194 E:35460 W:30446 -ex ( [] [0]) 10:54:43.96-

H:7235 M:6919 E:35573 W:30415 kdbex ( [] [0]) 10:57:53.28-

Vulkuz, Barrow-lord of the Darkenwood's eyes flash with menace as he mutters a curse under his breath. Agony courses through your 

body and your flesh begins to wither and die.

You have been afflicted with slickness.

The protective covering coating your skin sloughs off.

Your hearing is suddenly restored.

H:4246 M:6919 E:35573 W:30415 kbex ( [] [0]) 10:57:53.50-

H:4969 M:6669 E:35575 W:30775 kdbex ([vulkuz] [100%] [0]) 11:03:51.92-

Waves of cold radiate from Vulkuz, Barrow-lord of the Darkenwood and you feel your body instantly lose all warmth.

You have been afflicted with shivering.

H:2323 M:6669 E:35575 W:30787 kdbex ([vulkuz] [100%] [0]) 11:03:52.69-

H:5844 M:6367 E:35480 W:30383 kbex ( [] [0]) 10:54:45.79-

Vulkuz, Barrow-lord of the Darkenwood's wails ominously and the air around him shimmers. Waves of pain overpower your mind.

H:1385 M:6367 E:35480 W:30383 kbex ( [] [0]) 10:54:46.31-

That was with two, essentially unartied (for health tanking) dragons, Minkai and I. He also attacks at around 2.5s. Is that intended? I can understand that level of damage against Aran'kesh, who you can fly against and who has enforced downtime, but it seems a little excessive against a boss that blocks and constantly moves around (and heals while you're not attacking him) and has several instakill mechanics that require significant time off attacking to disable. I have suggestions based on my current understanding, but honestly, I don't even know if my current understanding is correct. That fight has so much going on.

Cooper

Why is/was every foray bugged to the point they weren't doable by most?

How are we to differentiate between a bug and bad balancing when we are told things are working as intended when they are bugged? 

Thaisen

It’s just a guessing game until you get shrubbed.

Saonji

Thaisen said:

It’s just a guessing game until you get shrubbed.

Or until you get told that you're assuming incorrectly.

Adrik

Saonji said:

Thaisen said:

It’s just a guessing game until you get shrubbed.

Or until you get told that you're assuming incorrectly.

As one of the people that did/helped work through most of the forays when they were first released with Farrah. Vulkuz has significantly changed over time from "pretty hard, but decent. A few deaths, but Farrah could 1v1 him once traps were stopped" to "You cannot 2-man this foray and have hopes for the other person to get out of X insta-kill mechanic unless your timing is ABSOLUTELY perfect and RNG is on your side to put you on the right side. And even still, they might die and have no body to revive. Because."

Vulkuz has shifted, mechanically, and balance wise to be near incompleteable the way we used to do it. Not sure what happened there.

Aran'kesh's mechanics are simplistic, but get the very basic gist and 'feel' of what a Foray should be. The boss is hard, but once you know the mechanics and how to avoid being damaged out.. He's 'easy'. Hard, but easy.

Ogre Fortress is just a quest, where hopefully you didn't kill named denizens.. with a super-mob and a "Hope you didn't use queueing, because you're true-dead if you did."

Margam is 25% RNG fuckery to hope you aren't entangled, 75% skill.

Dragonquest is probably still yank-bash to be most efficient since the boss heals 10~30% of his health whenever he does a certain attack.. that he loves to spam.

Icosse's shades are painful, but Icosse is kind of a chump himself. The Thrall just loves to either be worthless (Non-Super Thrall) or an annhilator of worlds (Super Thrall). There is no real in between. It is sad.

I mean, at least you guys have established mechanics now. Before, the entrance to Mirrortower was outdoors and they couldn't tentacle. So you flew, they just sat-and-waited for flybashing. Then it was made indoors to stop that (which didn't make sense).. and then.. reverted to being outdoors again-- except they now had the tentacle tattoo to block it.

You used to be able to prism out of mirror Maze... Portal into Icosse's mirror realm, from just.. anywhere on Sapience (but not from in the foray)... Used to be able to earring / prism / portal / brazier out of certain areas of Vulkuz' traps...

Out of all of them, learning Margam's tricks were actually the most fun to learn and use. Because once you got past one trick, ol Horald had another up his sleeve to wtfpwn you with.. which then was another L, or a few more deaths to figure out! It absolutely was enjoyable to learn about. Farrah / Atalkez even got a few day TF from Ictinus for being the first ones to complete it. (Unfortunately, only LAST HITTERs get the honours-line.)

Meriet

Dragon quest is no longer yank bash, I can promise you that. Dragon quest now benefits best from... A more direct approach let's say to avoid too much sharing. Simpler than Aran'kesh. The mobs on the way to the Foreman will still rip you apart though so good luck getting exploration points unless you have a very willing and patient new-dragon who is willing to fail the faux foray (fauxray?) a few times for denizen clearing, as it's no longer boarded.

Kog

Fortress is my favorite but one day I'm going to style on Horald and then that one will be my favorite, I think. I'm looking forward to being able to get back into it, and all the changes as of the latest announce have been super nice.

I also have some ideas for cheesing the hell out of Fortress that I kind of want to try, but it being down/taken kind of sucks. I really did like the suggestion of allowing multiple instances of the foray to be open, even if it's just a daily 'flex' of your first foray is free pick whatever, then you have to use the board, or a few dupes of each existing at once. New forays would help to alleviate that burden, but the effort scales up admin-side for that.

Amelyn

One thing you could change and rather easily which would be very nice is make the first room when you enter the foray a room the denizens does'nt enter. I hate jumping into the foray and being instantly killed without the possibility of knowing how many denizens are inside..

Or can you somehow view into the the foray that I dont know about?

Santar

Amelyn said:

One thing you could change and rather easily which would be very nice is make the first room when you enter the foray a room the denizens does'nt enter. I hate jumping into the foray and being instantly killed without the possibility of knowing how many denizens are inside..

Or can you somehow view into the the foray that I dont know about?

I am not sure if this still applies after the last few changes, but before a couple days ago, the first room of a foray is ALWAYS the same. On first entry, at least.

I imagine it is still instanced in a similar manner.

Icarius

Santar said:

Amelyn said:

One thing you could change and rather easily which would be very nice is make the first room when you enter the foray a room the denizens does'nt enter. I hate jumping into the foray and being instantly killed without the possibility of knowing how many denizens are inside..

Or can you somehow view into the the foray that I dont know about?

I am not sure if this still applies after the last few changes, but before a couple days ago, the first room of a foray is ALWAYS the same. On first entry, at least.

I imagine it is still instanced in a similar manner.

I believe I did Aran'kesh two times today and one time we where one-shotted from dozens of denizen. The other time it was one there.

Astarod

Icarius said:

Santar said:

Amelyn said:

One thing you could change and rather easily which would be very nice is make the first room when you enter the foray a room the denizens does'nt enter. I hate jumping into the foray and being instantly killed without the possibility of knowing how many denizens are inside..

Or can you somehow view into the the foray that I dont know about?

I am not sure if this still applies after the last few changes, but before a couple days ago, the first room of a foray is ALWAYS the same. On first entry, at least.

I imagine it is still instanced in a similar manner.

I believe I did Aran'kesh two times today and one time we where one-shotted from dozens of denizen. The other time it was one there.

There's a trick to not getting one shotted (in particular cases). Ask me in game. 

Kog

Let me ring the bell more after Borgron's dead.

Phaestus

Santar said:

Amelyn said:

One thing you could change and rather easily which would be very nice is make the first room when you enter the foray a room the denizens does'nt enter. I hate jumping into the foray and being instantly killed without the possibility of knowing how many denizens are inside..

Or can you somehow view into the the foray that I dont know about?

I am not sure if this still applies after the last few changes, but before a couple days ago, the first room of a foray is ALWAYS the same. On first entry, at least.

I imagine it is still instanced in a similar manner.

This shouldn't be the case anymore, no. They should be better spread out when you first enter a foray (though there is still a chance of having a larger stack, as there is normally).

Amelyn said:

One thing you could change and rather easily which would be very nice is make the first room when you enter the foray a room the denizens does'nt enter. I hate jumping into the foray and being instantly killed without the possibility of knowing how many denizens are inside..

Or can you somehow view into the the foray that I dont know about?

The latter isn't really possible, as the foray isn't created until you first enter it (which is why previously you'd run into a huge stack of enemies). The first one isn't really possible either, as both a) most forays don't have a lot of space to work with as-is, and b) it'd make it really easy to cheese some enemies/bosses (in the same vein as flybashing). We'll ponder options, but the issue should have been pretty well mitigated by spreading out the mobs when the foray first begins.

Kog said:

Let me ring the bell more after Borgron's dead.

lorielan_no.png

Astarod

Phaestus said:

Santar said:

Amelyn said:

One thing you could change and rather easily which would be very nice is make the first room when you enter the foray a room the denizens does'nt enter. I hate jumping into the foray and being instantly killed without the possibility of knowing how many denizens are inside..

Or can you somehow view into the the foray that I dont know about?

I am not sure if this still applies after the last few changes, but before a couple days ago, the first room of a foray is ALWAYS the same. On first entry, at least.

I imagine it is still instanced in a similar manner.

This shouldn't be the case anymore, no. They should be better spread out when you first enter a foray (though there is still a chance of having a larger stack, as there is normally).

Amelyn said:

One thing you could change and rather easily which would be very nice is make the first room when you enter the foray a room the denizens does'nt enter. I hate jumping into the foray and being instantly killed without the possibility of knowing how many denizens are inside..

Or can you somehow view into the the foray that I dont know about?

The latter isn't really possible, as the foray isn't created until you first enter it (which is why previously you'd run into a huge stack of enemies). The first one isn't really possible either, as both a) most forays don't have a lot of space to work with as-is, and b) it'd make it really easy to cheese some enemies/bosses (in the same vein as flybashing). We'll ponder options, but the issue should have been pretty well mitigated by spreading out the mobs when the foray first begins.

Kog said:

Let me ring the bell more after Borgron's dead.

lorielan_no.png

I'd say the fortress foray mob spread is pretty well done. I think it'd be rather easy to institute some kind of mob spawn cap (3 spawn per room?), but I don't know the code you're working with so a few nested if statements might be more of a complex situation than one might assume.


Thank you so much for these changes so far, though I am worried you'll up the damage by 3000-4000 on a foray I'm doing for lols.

Saonji

Adrik said:

I'm just memeing I don't wanna read your thesis.