Forays: A Review.

Kaios

Antonius said:

Silas said:

The fact that's a thing and I had no idea illustrates the problem perfectly.

Those functions weren't added without telling anybody, they were posted about on the Announce board. If you don't know they exist, it's because you didn't read those posts or you forgot the commands existed after reading about them. Neither of those is a change documentation issue. A more detailed change log would be useful for people actively playing at that time, but for most returning players it's just going to mean even more information that they'll decide not to read through.

In terms of regular documentation, how exactly would you want them to make you aware of these things outside of putting them in the relevant HELP files?

CURING PRIOAFF NONE is still only mentioned in the announcement that implemented CURING PRIOAFF and no where else.

Big Papa Jomi

Here's Crixos' log bit from my end. As you can see, I had 100% health. To be fair, I was not in dragon (which has 7.2kish health, iirc) because I wanted to try a quick rez on Nbige.

But then that wouldn't have really mattered because,



I mean, it just kinda sucks. I get that it scales with the strength of the people in the party, but like

Antonius

Kaios said:

Antonius said:

Silas said:

The fact that's a thing and I had no idea illustrates the problem perfectly.

Those functions weren't added without telling anybody, they were posted about on the Announce board. If you don't know they exist, it's because you didn't read those posts or you forgot the commands existed after reading about them. Neither of those is a change documentation issue. A more detailed change log would be useful for people actively playing at that time, but for most returning players it's just going to mean even more information that they'll decide not to read through.

In terms of regular documentation, how exactly would you want them to make you aware of these things outside of putting them in the relevant HELP files?

CURING PRIOAFF NONE is still only mentioned in the announcement that implemented CURING PRIOAFF and no where else.

I'm definitely not saying the documentation is perfect - there are likely a lot of things that aren't documented in HELP files that should be - but I don't see what else can be done other than putting it in HELP files that would solve the problem.

A question for you: Have you filed a TYPO to have that information added to the relevant places? If not, you're part of the problem.

Saonji

Antonius said:

In terms of regular documentation, how exactly would you want them to make you aware of these things outside of putting them in the relevant HELP files?

Every other game has a CHANGELOG function that works perfectly fine. Although Aetolia's is a newsboard (and Imperian's only just recently started seeing use).

An example from Lusternia's as to how the thing actually works...

There's also ways to search and find relevant things. Aetolia's one can be searched the same way any other newsboard can be.

Armali

Aran'Kesh, the Fleshrender flexes his stringy avian muscles and writhes furiously, breaking free of his bonds.

Does anyone know what that actually even does? I don't /think/ it weakens him or in any way slows him down or denies him attacks (although the short time frame before he breaks free limits testing of that) and he doesn't fly except on health intervals anyways. You can also pull on the harpoon from the other end, but not sure if that's related to this. I've kept Kesh down for a good minute or two before pulling, but it doesn't seem to do anything?

Veldrin

It takes away from the time you have to kill him in?

Crixos

Armali said:

That thrall hit is amazing. Is it full AoE, or is it psuedo stormhammer and actually only hits three people?

AOE with a first person message for all!

Kaios

Antonius said:

I'm definitely not saying the documentation is perfect - there are likely a lot of things that aren't documented in HELP files that should be - but I don't see what else can be done other than putting it in HELP files that would solve the problem.

A question for you: Have you filed a TYPO to have that information added to the relevant places? If not, you're part of the problem.

Not through typo as I wasn't sure how exactly such an issue should be filed as that should be included with the mention of CURING PRIOAFF when you enter CURING, I reported it via HELPBUG some time ago.

Astarod

https://ada-young.com/pastebin/iSsWF2g_

I'm not asking for anything but some damage tuned down. The Mages are tankier and damage people out without anyone else in the room (god help you if there are more than one), Borgron hits for 9000 AoE, couldn't this be toned down a bit?

You can change something else, just stop the one-shots?

Borgron, captain of the fortress bellows an incantation and fire sprouts from his palms.
Agony erupts all over your body as your flesh begins to melt away.
You have been afflicted with burning.
4929h (38%), 9952m (99%) 32116e, 45200w 6% 12 xcdbk- 14:46:13.622 [abl](-7487 Health)


Agony erupts all over your body as your flesh begins to melt away.
You have been afflicted with burning.
1632h (15%), 9491m (94%) 32376e, 45200w 6% 37 xcdbk- 14:46:35.713 [?? abl](-8070 Health)


Borgron, captain of the fortress has visited the Halls of Death recently.
Borgron, captain of the fortress has incredible physical cutting, incredible physical blunt,
significant poison
10446h (100%), 10005m (100%) 33216e, 44933w 6% 21 exdbk- 14:48:05.505 [?????]
burning (1)

svo.valid.simpleburning (1)()
Borgron, captain of the fortress bellows an incantation and fire sprouts from his palms.
Agony erupts all over your body as your flesh begins to melt away.
You have been afflicted with burning.
923h (8%), 10005m (100%) 33216e, 45200w 6% 21 exdbk- 14:48:05.648 [????? abl](-9523 Health)

I cut out some snippets that were more illuminating for my point. 

Veldrin

On that last one you had snippet I didn't have any defenses up, did have thermal shield up the first one

Ictinus

Obviously in the wake of some fairly significant back end changes, we're monitoring the effects and will make adjustments as needed. Stay tuned! 

Astarod

Ictinus said:

Obviously in the wake of some fairly significant back end changes, we're monitoring the effects and will make adjustments as needed. Stay tuned! 

Fool me once....

Kog

My numbers will be off from my previous ones because I was tanking him in lesser to see if I could. We made a mistake at the start and Nephiny got bopped, so I had her come back as dragon for insurance, but I tanked him the entire time she was embracing and the entire time after she got back, without bursting.

-- Fire hits:
28.0-51.6

-- Legs hit:
48.4

-- Fire DSL:
43.8-47.2

-- Poison DSL:
40.5-49.4

-- Jugular:
35.3-45.2

While these numbers are huge, it's important to note that he hits slower than I shield now. If you're dying to AOE, your tank should shield more. It's also more important to identify WHO he's hitting now, so they know to stop mindlessly headbutting him. I was also able to use Morimbuul and Xylthus just fine- overall, there was a ton more strategy than last time (where he just obliterated me), and a good bit more than before that (where I just sat on him with artefacts and he died).

EDIT TO ADD: Looks like he hit you with aoe in your log @astarod then 3 seconds later hit you again. I know that's roughly dragon attack speed, so I'd suggest not using queue against him. Wait for a hit to confirm it's not an aoe, tag him, or if it IS aoe make sure you shield if you're the tank.

Astarod

Kog said:

My numbers will be off from my previous ones because I was tanking him in lesser to see if I could. We made a mistake at the start and Nephiny got bopped, so I had her come back as dragon for insurance, but I tanked him the entire time she was embracing and the entire time after she got back, without bursting.

-- Fire hits:
28.0-51.6

-- Legs hit:
48.4

-- Fire DSL:
43.8-47.2

-- Poison DSL:
40.5-49.4

-- Jugular:
35.3-45.2

While these numbers are huge, it's important to note that he hits slower than I shield now. If you're dying to AOE, your tank should shield more. It's also more important to identify WHO he's hitting now, so they know to stop mindlessly headbutting him. I was also able to use Morimbuul and Xylthus just fine- overall, there was a ton more strategy than last time (where he just obliterated me), and a good bit more than before that (where I just sat on him with artefacts and he died).

EDIT TO ADD: Looks like he hit you with aoe in your log @astarod then 3 seconds later hit you again. I know that's roughly dragon attack speed, so I'd suggest not using queue against him. Wait for a hit to confirm it's not an aoe, tag him, or if it IS aoe make sure you shield if you're the tank.

Yeah but our numbers showed significantly higher percentages of damage. The Fire DSL for Veldrin at one point as 9000, which is 90% of his health. If it were simply 47.2, that wouldn't be -as- bad, but it's like 70-80% of our max health instead of less than half, which is a considerable difference. 

Phaestus

Some of Borgron's attacks had an extra modifier on them, and were doing a bit more than they should have. Nothing should have been hitting you for 80-90% of your health without some other factors at play, though. We'll keep an eye on it with those mods removed and see what's going on there.

Phaestus

Issue fixed where AoE abilities were doing twice as much as they should be. Should be fine now.

Astarod

Phaestus said:

Issue fixed where AoE abilities were doing twice as much as they should be. Should be fine now.

So... I had a question. Me and Tia just took off our artefacts and lesserformed when I took the foray off the board, did you make this change before we did that or not. Does that affect foray difficulty? it seemed to, since me and Kog had wildly different damages before this change. @Phaestus

Phaestus

The change was partway through your foray. Lesserforming will change the damage numbers you're seeing but not overall difficulty. You should have an easier (somewhat) time of it with arties on than off.

Astarod

Phaestus said:

The change was partway through your foray. Lesserforming will change the damage numbers you're seeing but not overall difficulty. You should have an easier (somewhat) time of it with arties on than off.

Well, I'm saying you're saying it's ok to remove arties/lesserform (so damage is lowered), then sign onto the foray, dform, and wear arties with the lower damage numbers?

Phaestus

Astarod said:

Phaestus said:

The change was partway through your foray. Lesserforming will change the damage numbers you're seeing but not overall difficulty. You should have an easier (somewhat) time of it with arties on than off.

Well, I'm saying you're saying it's ok to remove arties/lesserform (so damage is lowered), then sign onto the foray, dform, and wear arties with the lower damage numbers?

Oh, that's not going to change your difficulty, no. You're welcome to keep doing it, but you're just wasting your own time.

Iocun

Saonji said:

Antonius said:

In terms of regular documentation, how exactly would you want them to make you aware of these things outside of putting them in the relevant HELP files?

Every other game has a CHANGELOG function that works perfectly fine. Although Aetolia's is a newsboard (and Imperian's only just recently started seeing use).

An example from Lusternia's as to how the thing actually works...

There's also ways to search and find relevant things. Aetolia's one can be searched the same way any other newsboard can be.

Oh, this would be so great to have!

Cooper

@Phaestus

Can you please clarify what this meant?

Does that mean having artefacts increases the difficulty?

You should have an easier (somewhat) time of it with arties on than off.

Ysela

Phaestus said:

Veldrin said:

I dread for the people that haven't spent 8700+ credits on arties and aren't dragons if that's the case. Cause I for sure can't tank more than 2 ogres

It's almost like the foray scales!

Does this mean that artefacts are part of the scaling calculation, in addition to level and number of people embarking on the foray?

Astarod

Ysela said:

Phaestus said:

Veldrin said:

I dread for the people that haven't spent 8700+ credits on arties and aren't dragons if that's the case. Cause I for sure can't tank more than 2 ogres

It's almost like the foray scales!

Does this mean that artefacts are part of the scaling calculation, in addition to level and number of people embarking on the foray?

Lol you thought because you spent money on artefacts to help you in the game that they'd help you in the game. HAHA. OWNED.

Aegoth

Yea, IF arties are being calculated into the scaling, they shouldn't. They're very -expensive- perks that a lot of us paid good money for that are supposed to make it a lot easier. 

Phaestus

Some artefacts are part of the calculation, yes. These will still give you an edge, but not to the same degree as they do in the open world. Most artefacts are unaffected, and will be flat advantages on top of the scaling.

Veldrin

me and Avianca doing Aran'Kesh foray. That's sooo survivable



This one is even worse

Phaestus

Aegoth said:

Yea, IF arties are being calculated into the scaling, they shouldn't. They're very -expensive- perks that a lot of us paid good money for that are supposed to make it a lot easier. 

This is a small, instanced portion of the game with an intended difficulty. Artefacts are far from useless in forays, and most are entirely unaffected. Given that we're balancing forays to be completed by players with few to no artefacts, however, certain outliers like stacking deathcape + con arties + reserves + SoA would make any foray absolutely trivial to some players, which is not something we want. This was one of the problems with the old scaling system (see the point in the newspost about tweaks to make things more suitable for one group negatively affecting others). These artefacts aren't negated entirely, but their effects are balanced appropriately for foray difficulty.

Astarod

Phaestus said:

Aegoth said:

Yea, IF arties are being calculated into the scaling, they shouldn't. They're very -expensive- perks that a lot of us paid good money for that are supposed to make it a lot easier. 

This is a small, instanced portion of the game with an intended difficulty. Artefacts are far from useless in forays, and most are entirely unaffected. Given that we're balancing forays to be completed by players with few to no artefacts, however, certain outliers like stacking deathcape + con arties + reserves + SoA would make any foray absolutely trivial to some players, which is not something we want. This was one of the problems with the old scaling system (see the point in the newspost about tweaks to make things more suitable for one group negatively affecting others). These artefacts aren't negated entirely, but their effects are balanced appropriately for foray difficulty.

As a low (moderately?) artefacted player, I don't see the point of it. Why wouldn't you just make it easier? You want people to enjoy this, right? The point is to create an activity that will generate logins and possible purchases. Why would people buy your stuff if when they possibly need it most, it negatively impacts them.

Phaestus

Astarod said:

Why wouldn't you just make it easier? You want people to enjoy this, right? The point is to create an activity that will generate logins and possible purchases.

There's a difference between easier and trivial. The point is to create difficult and engaging content that feels rewarding when you complete it.

Astarod said:

Why would people buy your stuff if when they possibly need it most, it negatively impacts them.

No artefact impacts you negatively. As I've said multiple times at this point, most artefacts are entirely unaffected by the scaling, and those few that are still offer you advantages, just to a lesser degree than standard hunting. This isn't going to change.