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Forays: A Review.

AstarodAstarod Member Posts: 705 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean

One of the most enjoyable facets of the game recently for me has been forays and the joy of trying new forays or trying to cover old ones. I'd like to open this thread to anyone who has anything meaningful to contribute, but I have my own things to say hopefully to an administration who will listen to me (albeit with a hefty grain of salt). 

Before I begin, I'd like to say this is not about renown, it's about the forays themselves. I enjoy renown and think it's an excellent system, but I actually enjoy foraying and would like to more than I already do, and perhaps be able to enjoy some of the forays that are somewhat ridiculous currently. 


First and foremost, I think Idea 535 had a great amount of merit, which I have included below for those who weren't able to see it before it got the maximum level of support: 

PLEASE make FORAYS available to more than one group. Perhaps set up a Foray board for each City? And leave the one in Thera for Rogues and everyone else that wishes to still do Forays together. People hog the one and only foray all day every day, not giving anyone a chance at them! Make them more accessible somehow. It's not balanced at all! OR add Forays similar to Aran'kesh that are doable!


I think the first issue with forays is now everyone wants to do them for renown, which is heavily understandable. I think that with all of the foray groups (and renown), we've seen plenty of citizens come together for PVE as they have never done before. This is good. I think we should have -more- of this, or try to work on improving/debugging a facet of the game that has given us quite a lot of enjoyment. 


I think the second issue is a bit more complex. There are methods of improvement so that each foray could be more enjoyable for the current base of players:

First, I do not think it's too much to ask for some more time on Aran'kesh/Fortress. If there is an accident once or twice, the pray sequence will literally forfeit your chances at success. Now, one could say that this time limit exists so others can undertake the foray. That is why I think that the foray should have a hard limit of instances (5 or 7), to which groups can go undertake them. This may be a challenge to program, which I understand, however, you could simply make each foray entrance static (like with the dragon quest), which may help with minimizing bugs. However, the worst thing is to get through a foray, and then someone perishes, and that simple death cost the group the foray. 

Secondly, I wish the NPC's attacks were tuned down a bit. The Reckoning Boss's had excellent mechanics so I know it is possible, but I feel that some of the current forays are far overtuned. Vulkuz steals items from players which dramatically lowers the desire to even figure that puzzle out, while the kill rooms are quite literally a way in which a group can lose their entire prospect of completing the foray. Furthermore, several means of travel are blocked because of the presence of god monoliths everywhere for no apparent reason. Why would I not be able to use my earring of Sinope in the valley of the avian? I understand the difficulty, but then you must also consider what we get for our difficulty. 


Foray Completion Rewards: 

For completing Icosse 12+ times (which was relatively challenging before, yet now requires a very artied player): a one time use kai banish.

For completing Aran'kesh 12+ times: a ten-time use foray finder.  This is a wonderful example of a -good- foray reward. 

For completing Dquest: a dent to gold cap (can't pick up the 10-20K gold drop), and some great exp. Remove boss gold drop?


Now, Dragonquest, that foray has been silently buffed again, and again, and again. Why? I would understand if yank bashing is not the way to do it, but when one questions the two NPCs, they offer nothing other than the uniforms which remove 'aggro' from the goblins. But if this isn't the way to do it, then why not just remove yank bashing, instead of tuning him up more? 


This is less of a rant and more of a request for the administration to look at forays, which now presents a great opportunity for cities to interact with their citizens in a constructive and potentially appropriately difficult manner. I'd like anyone else who has thoughts can speak up, though try to keep it respectful- trying to be constructive here. 

The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."

Aegis, God of War says, "You are dismissed from My demense, Astarod. Go forth and fight well. Bleed fiercely, and climb the purpose you have sought to chase for."
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Comments

  • SantarSantar Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,403 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'd say the more pressing issue, that is fairly related to forays, is that the adventure system is still barely functioning.  Hopefully fixing that is a priority. 

    image

    Ysela
  • RakdosRakdos Member Posts: 17
    edited May 3
    Not many options for rouges in the adventure system, as trying to muster help from other cities is not going to really happen, but this applies to solo adventures too, even if they're part of a city.

    Needs to be more options for solo and groups in general.
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,963 @@ - Legendary Achaean

  • SyrenniaSyrennia Member Posts: 83 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Rakdos said:
    Not many options for rouges in the adventure system, as trying to muster help from other cities is not going to really happen, but this applies to solo adventures too, even if they're part of a city.

    What does makeup have to do with the adventure system?
  • RakdosRakdos Member Posts: 17
    edited May 3
    Syrennia said:
    Rakdos said:
    Not many options for rouges in the adventure system, as trying to muster help from other cities is not going to really happen, but this applies to solo adventures too, even if they're part of a city.

    What does makeup have to do with the adventure system?
    What are you talking about?

    My point was around solo adventures in general and rouges.
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,963 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Rakdos said:
    Syrennia said:
    Rakdos said:
    Not many options for rouges in the adventure system, as trying to muster help from other cities is not going to really happen, but this applies to solo adventures too, even if they're part of a city.

    What does makeup have to do with the adventure system?
    What are you talking about?

    rouge1

    See definitions in:
    All
    Cosmetics
    Wine
    Sport
    noun
    1. 1.
      a red powder or cream used as a cosmetic for colouring the cheeks or lips.
      "she wore patches of rouge on her cheeks"
    2. 2.
      short for jeweller's rouge.

    verb
    1. colour with rouge.
      "her brightly rouged cheeks"
    adjective
    1. (of wine) red.
  • SyrenniaSyrennia Member Posts: 83 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Rakdos said:
    Syrennia said:
    Rakdos said:
    Not many options for rouges in the adventure system, as trying to muster help from other cities is not going to really happen, but this applies to solo adventures too, even if they're part of a city.

    What does makeup have to do with the adventure system?
    What are you talking about?

    Rouge.
  • RakdosRakdos Member Posts: 17
    edited May 3
    Sigh, Syrennia, you knew what I meant, stop trying to derail my point out of a spelling mistake, ffs.
    Zbaco
  • SyrenniaSyrennia Member Posts: 83 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited May 3
    You can't tell me not to derail when you already derailed with your 'point'.

    The thread's about forays, not adventures. You could make your own thread about adventures. :)
    Make sure to spell 'rogues' correctly. Wouldn't want people to think you're trying to adventure for makeup when you really want renown!


    More on point: Forays were initially (falsely) advertised as:

    Forays are unique in that they are flexible to the levels of the group undertaking them. As such, a group of three dragons facing down Aran'Kesh, the Fleshrender (for example) will find a similar challenge to that faced by a group of level 70 adventurers.

    Maybe look at actually making that true, would be a good start. Because uh. Yeah they evidently do not work as advertised. Unless that 'group of level 70 adventurers' really means 20+ level 70 adventurers. And even then they'd probably still wipe.


  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 2,963 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    1. Balance them completely based on players scaling with foray. Unartied for aran'kesh/ogre, level 1s for barrow, level 2s for margam/icosse/paradox. Fully artied up can help balance taking on less artied people.

    2. Remove the talismans that have combat implications. Swap them to be foray-only usable items (boulder rolls in a straight line killing any denizens on the way, moved to ogre fortress, sarcophagus from barrow you can DROP in a room, sucks in the group and heals them/applies starburst over 5s then kicks them out, destroyed on use, mirror stuns the foray boss for a short duration, limited charges and a 1m cooldown)

    3. Monitor completion vs groups in them and tweak as necessary. Aran'kesh should be easy run, but the reward is pretty bleh. Moving up the chain adds more beneficial and useful rewards. Only allow incredibly tight failure checks on forays with longer durations.

    Boom, forays are foray contained rewards, people who want to earn them will do more forays, for the most people will do the easiest for renown and move on. Moving PK-usable talismans off will also mean they don't have to be balanced to such a ridiculous degree, and can actually be, you know, done and played.

    Of course this has been feedback given since not long after their inception. So uhhh, breath not held.
    AccipiterShirszae
  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 598 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    What you have to remember is that the current admin stance is 'if it is better than bashing then it needs to be nerfed'. Forays are basically bashing with extra rewards therefore they have to have hugely punitive mechanics in order to prevent people from actually doing them.
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 2,318 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 3
    Well then...  mission accomplished?

     I've not done a single one because all I hear about is how buggy they are (fully acknowledging that may be 'old scoop' at this point) but I also don't usually have 4 hours to sail, foray, whatever.  My time ranges from like 10 minutes to 10 hours but always with the caveat I may need to logoff at any moment. Sailing and forays (time sinks) aren't conducive to that.

    IsmayZbaco
  • VinzentVinzent Member Posts: 286 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Caelan said:
    Well then...  mission accomplished?

     I've not done a single one because all I hear about is how buggy they are (fully acknowledging that may be 'old scoop' at this point) but I also don't usually have 4 hours to sail, foray, whatever.  My time ranges from like 10 minutes to 10 hours but always with the caveat I may need to logoff at any moment. Sailing and forays (time sinks) aren't conducive to that.
    Most of the forays are pretty short, and I have yet to witness any bugs. The only potential time sink is the wilderness part.
  • AndrayasAndrayas Member Posts: 2
    I love the Adventure system and Forays. I can't comment on how difficult the Forays are because I've only ever helped with one. I do agree though that they do NOT scale with level like it says in the help file; unless the scale is taken from the highest level person and applied to everyone. I know I would love it if it scaled with level so I could help out more. Forays have been an adventure so I hope they continue!

    OFF-TOPIC: It also would be great if the Adventure list wasn't dominated by seafaring and high level denizens. I know riding the elevator, rps, a spar, etc., are easy, but they also give very little renown. Would be super if there were other exploration or quest adventures that gave good renown.

    Anyway, something is better than nothing, so I'm not complaining with the way things are. Thanks! 
    Celadriel
  • Axios2Axios2 Member Posts: 22
    Andrayas said:
    I love the Adventure system and Forays. I can't comment on how difficult the Forays are because I've only ever helped with one. I do agree though that they do NOT scale with level like it says in the help file; unless the scale is taken from the highest level person and applied to everyone. I know I would love it if it scaled with level so I could help out more. Forays have been an adventure so I hope they continue!

    OFF-TOPIC: It also would be great if the Adventure list wasn't dominated by seafaring and high level denizens. I know riding the elevator, rps, a spar, etc., are easy, but they also give very little renown. Would be super if there were other exploration or quest adventures that gave good renown.

    Anyway, something is better than nothing, so I'm not complaining with the way things are. Thanks! 
    In case you don't know this, normal quests that you can do in most areas (like helping local denizens with their tasks) don't show up in the Adventure list but do give renown (scaled by your level). Try the command QUEST to learn more. 
  • AndrayasAndrayas Member Posts: 2
    Axios2 said:
    Andrayas said:
    I love the Adventure system and Forays. I can't comment on how difficult the Forays are because I've only ever helped with one. I do agree though that they do NOT scale with level like it says in the help file; unless the scale is taken from the highest level person and applied to everyone. I know I would love it if it scaled with level so I could help out more. Forays have been an adventure so I hope they continue!

    OFF-TOPIC: It also would be great if the Adventure list wasn't dominated by seafaring and high level denizens. I know riding the elevator, rps, a spar, etc., are easy, but they also give very little renown. Would be super if there were other exploration or quest adventures that gave good renown.

    Anyway, something is better than nothing, so I'm not complaining with the way things are. Thanks! 
    In case you don't know this, normal quests that you can do in most areas (like helping local denizens with their tasks) don't show up in the Adventure list but do give renown (scaled by your level). Try the command QUEST to learn more. 
    I did know that, and it was great until ... level 70 I'd say. I can spend a lot of time figuring out a quest, and at level 74, it likely won't give more than 20 renown. Most of them won't give any renown or will give 4-12. So, I don't really quest for renown anymore. I just do quests for the enjoyment otherwise it's disheartening. 
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 2,318 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Vinzent said:
    Caelan said:
    Well then...  mission accomplished?

     I've not done a single one because all I hear about is how buggy they are (fully acknowledging that may be 'old scoop' at this point) but I also don't usually have 4 hours to sail, foray, whatever.  My time ranges from like 10 minutes to 10 hours but always with the caveat I may need to logoff at any moment. Sailing and forays (time sinks) aren't conducive to that.
    Most of the forays are pretty short, and I have yet to witness any bugs. The only potential time sink is the wilderness part.
    Good to know.  When they first came out I seem to remember it taking hours for a couple...  

  • AdrikAdrik Member Posts: 443 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Forays disabled. Problem solved.

    Good job @Astarod .
  • AstarodAstarod Member Posts: 705 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Phaestus said:
    Though it doesn't address all concerns, you'll be happy to hear that we've identified and fixed a bug regarding foray scaling.

    For most forays, this very occasionally made a foray about twice as difficult as it was meant to be (which, in reality, made it impossible in those rare cases). Most of your regular foray experiences will remain unchanged

    For the dragonquest foray, this made the Foreman scale infinitely, very rapidly becoming the single strongest mob that players have encountered, by several magnitudes.

    Neither of these should occur any further, and the Foreman should no longer be the menace that he once was.
    could you possibly give us the deets on how far powerful he was before you fixed him?
    The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."

    Aegis, God of War says, "You are dismissed from My demense, Astarod. Go forth and fight well. Bleed fiercely, and climb the purpose you have sought to chase for."
  • AstarodAstarod Member Posts: 705 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Phaestus said:
    Astarod said:
    Phaestus said:
    Though it doesn't address all concerns, you'll be happy to hear that we've identified and fixed a bug regarding foray scaling.

    For most forays, this very occasionally made a foray about twice as difficult as it was meant to be (which, in reality, made it impossible in those rare cases). Most of your regular foray experiences will remain unchanged

    For the dragonquest foray, this made the Foreman scale infinitely, very rapidly becoming the single strongest mob that players have encountered, by several magnitudes.

    Neither of these should occur any further, and the Foreman should no longer be the menace that he once was.
    could you possibly give us the deets on how far powerful he was before you fixed him?
    At the time we found him? Doing about 23,000 damage per second.

    If left unchecked for long enough? Around 770,000 damage per second.
    Thank you so much for looking into it. Could you go over our last DragonQuest attempt (7:10-7:20) and make sure we did it right? It felt a lot easier, just want to make sure it's working fine. 
    The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."

    Aegis, God of War says, "You are dismissed from My demense, Astarod. Go forth and fight well. Bleed fiercely, and climb the purpose you have sought to chase for."
  • KogKog Member Posts: 141 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Phaestus said:
    Astarod said:
    Phaestus said:
    Though it doesn't address all concerns, you'll be happy to hear that we've identified and fixed a bug regarding foray scaling.

    For most forays, this very occasionally made a foray about twice as difficult as it was meant to be (which, in reality, made it impossible in those rare cases). Most of your regular foray experiences will remain unchanged

    For the dragonquest foray, this made the Foreman scale infinitely, very rapidly becoming the single strongest mob that players have encountered, by several magnitudes.

    Neither of these should occur any further, and the Foreman should no longer be the menace that he once was.
    could you possibly give us the deets on how far powerful he was before you fixed him?
    At the time we found him? Doing about 23,000 damage per second.

    If left unchecked for long enough? Around 770,000 damage per second.
    While maybe outside the scope of this thread, is there a way that changes/bugfixes/etc. That get done could be reported on a weekly or monthly basis somewhere? Like, I frequently hear 'oh the admin buffed x it was too easy now it is impossible', or I'll see mob behavior that looks altered (esp. with who gets attacked). Just a list of what got touched/changed would go a long way towards helping me identify bugs, or potential bugs, and make people feel what stuff is getting workes on. It could be either a forum thread or a changelog section on the news?
    Astarod
  • AdrikAdrik Member Posts: 443 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Kog said:
    Phaestus said:
    Astarod said:
    Phaestus said:
    Though it doesn't address all concerns, you'll be happy to hear that we've identified and fixed a bug regarding foray scaling.

    For most forays, this very occasionally made a foray about twice as difficult as it was meant to be (which, in reality, made it impossible in those rare cases). Most of your regular foray experiences will remain unchanged

    For the dragonquest foray, this made the Foreman scale infinitely, very rapidly becoming the single strongest mob that players have encountered, by several magnitudes.

    Neither of these should occur any further, and the Foreman should no longer be the menace that he once was.
    could you possibly give us the deets on how far powerful he was before you fixed him?
    At the time we found him? Doing about 23,000 damage per second.

    If left unchecked for long enough? Around 770,000 damage per second.
    While maybe outside the scope of this thread, is there a way that changes/bugfixes/etc. That get done could be reported on a weekly or monthly basis somewhere? Like, I frequently hear 'oh the admin buffed x it was too easy now it is impossible', or I'll see mob behavior that looks altered (esp. with who gets attacked). Just a list of what got touched/changed would go a long way towards helping me identify bugs, or potential bugs, and make people feel what stuff is getting workes on. It could be either a forum thread or a changelog section on the news?
    I would absolutely love a weekly bugfix log to be put in some news post so that certain things that are.. possible for us to know, or should know.. are fixed. Just something so we can have a changelog. Doesn't gotta be specific. Just "Fixed an issue where a ship captain could wavecall while anchored."
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 2,318 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Did they stop doing the bugfix posts?  Or are you specifically asking for a weekly one?

    I actually rather like that idea just because it would help with transparency and people not thinking @Ictinus and crew are just out to get them.  And it would show that bugs are, indeed, being addressed.

  • VessilVessil Member Posts: 59 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    For historical reference, I haven't seen it in a few days fortunately, but Aran'kesh has been bugged in the past, causing you to be unable to summon Aran'kesh, but you only discovered it was bugged after spending the 10-15 minutes clearing the area. Not the worst thing in the world, but it was quite frustrating the times I saw it happen.
  • AstarodAstarod Member Posts: 705 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited May 4
    Vessil said:
    For historical reference, I haven't seen it in a few days fortunately, but Aran'kesh has been bugged in the past, causing you to be unable to summon Aran'kesh, but you only discovered it was bugged after spending the 10-15 minutes clearing the area. Not the worst thing in the world, but it was quite frustrating the times I saw it happen.

     Are you talking about the bug where you had all three harpoons working but it wouldn't cause you to light the beacon because of the item respawn rate? I bugged it and they fixe it awhile ago. 

    Also, I hate to ask, but recently (last night/early this morning) there was another possible bug with Dragon Quest (@Phaestus- please don't hate me!!!). You see if you have people who aren't dragons join you, they still get the 1,000 renown, if you carry them through the foray. If this wasn't a bug, that would be pretty wholesome because then I can kinda do some grunt labour for non-dragon citizens, but if it is I think everyone should be careful about having novices sign up for the foray for renown. 

    Thanks for the fix though, I'm noticing a lot of differences in some of the foray bosses/minions I've been pitted against recently, though I would still like for there to be more time on Borgron. I think 30 minutes is a bit of an overkill when it requires a sacrifice to start (all the ogre brutes/mages at entrance for some reason), and then with all of the questing that you have to do (I -adore- the questing aspect of it, lemme just say), I just would rather not feel like I have to sprint around the last 10-15 minutes.

    Thanks for all your help so far admin!
    The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."

    Aegis, God of War says, "You are dismissed from My demense, Astarod. Go forth and fight well. Bleed fiercely, and climb the purpose you have sought to chase for."
  • KogKog Member Posts: 141 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I've been trying to 2-man all the forays that say a 2 person minimum, but some are way easier on 2 than others.

    I will say our record for Borgron was 9m to spare, with no deaths, but you can usually get him down with a few wipes as long as you regroup quick.

    Have 'solved' a few others enough to get to the final boss, but not beaten any of the others just yet. Duos it seems a little overtuned on a few things, but that just forces us to get more creative- the only complaint I have atm is barrows stealing an item if he kills you. That seems really punishing for no good reason, especially since he seems like one of the busier fights anyway?
    AstarodAnze
  • AstarodAstarod Member Posts: 705 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Ictinus or whoever altered Borgron in response to my issue (You used to be able to utilize Duanatharic or island wings to escape the foray, which I felt was not intended, so I asked about it), thank you for your time. I'd like to ask for a shift in your response to this issue (which was to give Borgron a tentacle). 

    There are a couple problems I'd like to present: there is no way to control aggression, so even if you have a fully artied person (which seems to not matter in this foray), it's hard to keep him under management. The tentacle tattoo also doesn't stop his ground attack, so even if you fly, it doesn't consume his balance with his regular attacks, causing you further mana damage and bleed stacking- not to mention stacking loki, entangle, and the challenge it is -to- fly. 

    I'd like this altered so that one of the following happens so it is possible for a non-artied person to tank him:

    1. Tree/Shield balance consumption. Shield or Tentacle should offer some respite, currently not offering much to his overall aggression. Simply put, there's no way to block his advance once he starts on you, save exiting the area which doesn't seem like a worthwhile foray mechanic. I'm not saying that he not break shield, or that tentacle can be the only attack within fly balance, but I think the rate at which he loki's and tentacles is unreasonable. 

    2. Remove the tentacle, create a situation where if you have a certain affliction, Borgron straight up prevent fly. This way you have to strategically cure so that you are able to escape when he attacks you, offering a challenge, but also respite. 

    3. Slower attacks. The affliction rate, along with the mana damage and bleed rate seems over-tuned. I don't think it's unreasonable to politely ask for this to be tuned down since I don't think that forays should be set with the expectations of artefacts (shield of absorption, regen 3, sip 3, reserves 3.. the list goes on). 

    I'm not -trying- to complain, I just want this looked into because out of the forays that are currently available, other than Aran'kesh and Dragonquest, this is one of the lesser difficult ones mechanics wise, or used to be before this change. If there is a hidden mechanic for mitigating damage, or empowering the ogres that assist you, I'm sorry I bothered you. Otherwise, this seems to just be a tanking issue which I don't think is feasible with borgron ignoring shield/lyre, among other things.


    Again, thanks for your quick response! - just would like you to look into this. 


    The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."

    Aegis, God of War says, "You are dismissed from My demense, Astarod. Go forth and fight well. Bleed fiercely, and climb the purpose you have sought to chase for."
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