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Do you like theft in Achaea?

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  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 1,925 @ - Epic Achaean
    Yes
    Athelas said:

    The discussion around theft has been going for over two RL decades! So let's get honest here: Theft in Achaea isn't only broken, it's irreparable.

    But like..  Achaea has survived for 20+ years with it so..  that argument can go both ways.


  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 2,999 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No
    I find it much less sad that Cobault had a different opinion 2 years ago...and more-so that Pyori had dug up logs of a player from 2 years ago and pasted them....
    AstarodMorsul
  • TorinnTorinn Member Posts: 1,263 @ - Epic Achaean
    Yes
    Asmodron said:
    Torinn said:
    If I were a thief I would have no interest in gold.  It's the rarities or juicy Intel I could get that would interest me.  Of course I also love to roleplay with people and would be okay reaping punishments as appropriate

    Sigh...

    Therein lies the problem. Once again, why would you get the right to have claim on another player's 'rarities'? Rarities that as per any game, by definition, are gained after either devoted hours played in that game or through large funds spent. In this interaction, it being one-sided, as the thief themselves would NOT be under the same duress of being targetted for such rarities, nor for the act of stealing.

    Once again, the same imbalance arises, the same that the pro-thief group have been ignoring: What does the player get out of this in significance to what the thief is gaining or what can the thief lose in significance?

    People have actually commented that "You get the experience of danger", yet dont somehow see how selfish and foolish of an excuse that is. That somehow the player is...thankful(?) that another player has targetted them and taken away a 'rarity' that the player has worked hard to gain.

    If we could all be thieves to each other then maaaaybe there would be some level of equality here, but at that point I'd picture Achaea falling apart.
    Why do people have to gain or lose anything?  This isn't a zero sum game.  What -should- be gained is interesting roleplay and repurcussions.  Therein lies the problem in my opinion.  Too many people not willing to engage and too many thieves doing it for luls.  I agree completely with Daeir's post.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    Caelan
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 552 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    No
    How are thieves going to roleplay when the only people they can steal from are confused newbies and AFK/disconnected people?
  • AstarodAstarod Member Posts: 447 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    No
    I'll take it one step further. Who wants to roleplay being another's slave for an item they worked hard to already get? 

    I'm sorry. This is a game, and I have friends here. It's a tad OOC perspective on it, but if Profit takes my wedding ring (which he can't, because it's returning, you asshole :D ) I'm probably going to ask what he wants for it, toss a few credits at him, because it's important to me, and maybe get it back. If he doesn't, I'm going to get upset OOCly and feel like quitting the game. ( I wouldn't because my wife isn't dormant, but if she were, it'd be a hard blow on a wound already made). I get some of you "Yes" people are roleplayers, but Daeir, you ran from me when I came on clouds when you were shouting big shit. Where was the RP of standing up for yourself? Didn't you want to experience dying to a combatant? It would have been a cool loss to help define your character a bit more.

    For god's sake, why would I desire to roleplay being held in a situation like that? Why would anyone choose to be a victim of a thief? So, no offense, but I hope Profit steals from all y'all "yes's" so you can at least see what it's like to lose something you care about. It can function as his hit list :D To be honest most of you guys stay on guard stacks anyways. (Most, not all, evidence nazis).


    The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."
    MroxylZbacoCailin
  • RyxRyx North of NorthreachMember Posts: 103 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Yes
    I voted yes, not a thief, hecka not a combatant, broke in real life. I think it just needs small adjustments.

    I wish more thieves actually roleplayed. There's been two incidents where thieves stole items relevant to me but not from me, so I tried to talk to them about it multiple times and they just straight up ignored me. Someone in my own House stole something I gave to @Azazell and he won't talk to me in any capacity. That's not fun theft.

    @Profit is an amazing roleplayer though. Probably the funniest guy in Achaea I've had the pleasure of interacting with.
    NumiraCaelanAzazell
  • TorinnTorinn Member Posts: 1,263 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 20
    Yes
    Astarod said:
    I'll take it one step further. Who wants to roleplay being another's slave for an item they worked hard to already get? 

    I'm sorry. This is a game, and I have friends here. It's a tad OOC perspective on it, but if Profit takes my wedding ring (which he can't, because it's returning, you asshole :D ) I'm probably going to ask what he wants for it, toss a few credits at him, because it's important to me, and maybe get it back. If he doesn't, I'm going to get upset OOCly and feel like quitting the game. ( I wouldn't because my wife isn't dormant, but if she were, it'd be a hard blow on a wound already made). I get some of you "Yes" people are roleplayers, but Daeir, you ran from me when I came on clouds when you were shouting big shit. Where was the RP of standing up for yourself? Didn't you want to experience dying to a combatant? It would have been a cool loss to help define your character a bit more.

    For god's sake, why would I desire to roleplay being held in a situation like that? Why would anyone choose to be a victim of a thief? So, no offense, but I hope Profit steals from all y'all "yes's" so you can at least see what it's like to lose something you care about. It can function as his hit list :D To be honest most of you guys stay on guard stacks anyways. (Most, not all, evidence nazis).


    If the cost is too high then it is valid to say no to the proposal or offer a counter proposal.  I don't see the problem.  It's on both parties to reach an agreement if it's something they want to make something out of.  My issue are the thieves who do it for nothing but luls and have no intention of ever giving anything back but just want tears.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 552 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 20
    No
    Here are my experiences with theft:

    I got robbed a lot for a long time, but it was always just a couple hundred gold here and there. The vast majority of these thieves did not stop to roleplay with me in any way.

    I got something valuable stolen once. The thief bitched me out in all sorts of media. When I tried to get equivalent revenge, I got killed, despite my attempt not even going anywhere. The admins said it was allowed because my only valid avenues for revenge are killing the thief once, either myself or via a mark, and so the very attempt overstepped my boundaries.

    Lately, I attack or hire on any thief who even snaps at me at a bad time, but attacking them is... not fun, and most thieves are worth shit exp so I'm not sure why I bother except in vain hopes they'll consider easier targets.

    I've had someone rob my house, but jokes on him, it was all resetting anyway.

    The only good encounter was when @Rip stole my resetting item and I chased him to the clouds to pester him (despite not having wings at the time), but I'm the one who made that fun, so I'm not sure what value being open to theft adds when I'm still the one who has to go out of my way to make it fun too.

    I can already have fun roleplay with just as much effort and without being robbed.

    ETA: There was also that time a thief stood and fought (kudos for that), and forgot to put their gold away, so I ended up taking their gold. Maybe thieves should be gold pinatas.
    Ryleigha
  • TorinnTorinn Member Posts: 1,263 @ - Epic Achaean
    Yes
    Yeah nobody is arguing that it isn't one sided right now.  It definitely is.  It seems most thieves are in it for the luls.  Also my god man take some better precautions  :#
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,917 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No
    Torinn said:
    Asmodron said:
    Torinn said:
    If I were a thief I would have no interest in gold.  It's the rarities or juicy Intel I could get that would interest me.  Of course I also love to roleplay with people and would be okay reaping punishments as appropriate

    Sigh...

    Therein lies the problem. Once again, why would you get the right to have claim on another player's 'rarities'? Rarities that as per any game, by definition, are gained after either devoted hours played in that game or through large funds spent. In this interaction, it being one-sided, as the thief themselves would NOT be under the same duress of being targetted for such rarities, nor for the act of stealing.

    Once again, the same imbalance arises, the same that the pro-thief group have been ignoring: What does the player get out of this in significance to what the thief is gaining or what can the thief lose in significance?

    People have actually commented that "You get the experience of danger", yet dont somehow see how selfish and foolish of an excuse that is. That somehow the player is...thankful(?) that another player has targetted them and taken away a 'rarity' that the player has worked hard to gain.

    If we could all be thieves to each other then maaaaybe there would be some level of equality here, but at that point I'd picture Achaea falling apart.
    Why do people have to gain or lose anything?  This isn't a zero sum game.  What -should- be gained is interesting roleplay and repurcussions.  Therein lies the problem in my opinion.  Too many people not willing to engage and too many thieves doing it for luls.  I agree completely with Daeir's post.
    "Why do people have to gain or lose anything?"

    Because that's what theft is. It's the transfer of ownership from A to B of something (an item or gold). There's no way to have a theft system that doesn't have loss (though with the new mechanics I think it's possible for there to be no corresponding gain). Because this is a game that people play for fun, there needs to be something given in return to offset that loss, with the intent that the overall experience ends up being enjoyable for the victim. I'm not convinced that's actually possible to achieve.

    As you've suggested, that "something" could be interesting roleplay. However, interesting roleplay requires that both players are capable of producing it in the first place, and also that they're inclined to do so at that moment in time. Not everybody in Achaea is a strong roleplayer (or even plays the game for the roleplay), and theft is an inherently antagonistic action, so even strong roleplayers may not feel like doing so with that particular person at that particular time.

    Even with two strong roleplayers who are inclined to roleplay with each other following a theft, the actual natures of the characters may make getting anything meaningful out of it difficult (if not impossible). As a character I might be willing to pay a thief to return an item (if I had any items I cared about that weren't resetting), but betraying an organisation - even if that betrayal is "minor" like passing on some information - would be unthinkable. As a player, something like "Can I have my item back?" "Yes, pay me 20k." "Okay, here you go." isn't really an interesting experience. Being asked to do something that my character would never consider and outright refusing is similarly uninteresting. Also uninteresting: haggling over an amount - monetary or otherwise - to get the item returned.

    And of course for some people there is simply no amount or quality of roleplay that will make the experience enjoyable, because it doesn't come close to having the same value as the item that was taken.
    LennMroxylAsmodronRyleigha
  • PuxiPuxi Member Posts: 602 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Cobault said:
    Shirszae said:
    Kinda wish the poll would show the complete list of who has voted for which option. Just because I am curious.
    Edit: oh, forgot to mention the people that would just throw their wallet at the screen and immediately remedy the problem if they actually got robbed somehow. Sorry, didn't mean to forget you lot.

    Oh, you mean people that are keeping IRE in business and making it so people that can't invest in something they love to play can continue enjoy too? You're fucking welcome? Don't be an asshat.
  • ToninTonin Member Posts: 31 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    No
    Cobault said:
    A lot of things can change your outlook over that amount of time. So yeah, bitch move on bringing up some old stupid shit like that. The only thing you accomplished was making me cringe at my edgelord past self and how selfish and shitty I used to be.

    The thing that hasn't changed is that you're still completely unwilling to entertain the other side of an argument, even though you yourself have been on both sides of the argument. It's still proclamations; "This is toxic, if you defend it you're a piece of human shit." instead of "You're a fucking crybaby, go ahead and quit."

    Do you think in two years you'll look back and be proud this time? Just a thought.
    CaelanSophiGror
  • CobaultCobault Member Posts: 106 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    No
    If your idea of enjoyment comes at the behest of legitimately ruining someone's gameplay with such a broken mechanic that it can be abused while they're disconnected through no fault of their own? Yeah. That's a toxic mechanic. I can absolutely see the other side of the argument, it's just full of so many dumbshit reasons. There's no conflict because thieves are not only good at running, they don't care about death. There's no rp interaction, nor will there be with any new changes. It is a system designed to prey upon the weak/new/disconnected players.

    @Puxi don't take offense homie. It wasn't meant to really come off as an insult, just more of a "They have the ability to laugh at the repercussions."
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 1,925 @ - Epic Achaean
    Yes
    Sobriquet said:
    We have a game where you can buy an item that stops 100% of people finding you, another that takes you to a room only you can access using a single word. A game that has split the player base up by having islands, ships, the tree planes, wilderness entrances that take ages to get to. This has been done intentionally. Its is trivially easy to avoid being killed and that only gets easier the more money you spend. There is next to zero risk in being a thief as you can avoid all conflict, Mark's, bounties etc endlessly. 

    I managed to avoid Penwize on 2 successive bounties by playing defensive (city, guards, etc) and being alert. And I give him credit for just how much he tried to get me, I was very impressed. But if i can avoid someone like Penwize it proves me point. Now imagine if Penwize was a proficient thief and didn't want to PK. Nobody would ever catch him. Replace Penwize with Profit, or Proficy or anyone else with credits. 

    Theft is Achaea is a out dated mechanic that has just been.made worse by the Admin adding so many talisman, auction items, and totally splitting the game up into unreachable for some and difficult to reach for others, silo'ed areas.

    We have ~200 people online at any one time. Let's make it take 15 minutes to walk to Meropis unless you pay for a card or pebble. Let's make it take 10 minutes to walk to areas through the wilderness unless you can fly, buy a mount, achieve airlord. Let's make it hard to reach planes on the Tree, but then sell an artefact to make embracing the flame faster. Let's make ships fucking expensive that you need to enlist a city / navy / rich friends to get you places.

    Then let's have a 2500cr item that helps counteract the search barrier, because, how else will Sarapis afford to attend Burning Man every year?

    The barriers to inclusion in this game are horrendous, unless you pay through the nose. Theft and its problems are off the back of this, as a thief can avoid ALL repercussions of they really want to. 

    Free to play? Sure.... 

    /rant

    PS wow, that was cathartic. 
    Though I disagree with you on theft, the rest of this is a pretty big *sagenod*.

    SobriquetAstarodZbacoCobault
  • TorinnTorinn Member Posts: 1,263 @ - Epic Achaean
    Yes
    So let's talk about ways to remove those advantages and even the playing field
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    Numira
  • AstarodAstarod Member Posts: 447 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 20
    No
    Torinn said:
    So let's talk about ways to remove those advantages and even the playing field


    If a thief steals from you successfully they cannot veil, evade, or duanathar for an hour. If they try to use an artefact they heartstop instead. If they hit a guard stack, no matter where they go or hide, guards brazier them back :P

    They also get afflicted with darkshade permanently until death. 


    The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."
    Zbaco
  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,386 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No
    Torinn said:
    So let's talk about ways to remove those advantages and even the playing field
    We can't, it's too late. Sure, we can refund Profit for his veil and Penwize for his Island Wings, but that doesn't change the fact all the areas are -intentionally- designed to be so hard to get to that you will pay 5000cr for those wings in the first place, or a few million on a ship and lessons (And the whole "Join the city navy argument is bullshit).

    How many times have you heard:

    CT Bob says, "Mhaldor in"
    CT Ringo says, "I'm out sailing, I can't help yet"
    CT Bob says, "Can someone Rune me up?"
    CT George says, "I'm over on Meropis with no Card or Pebble, so I could, but give me a day"
    CT John says, "Can someone give me a house interview?"
    CT Paul says, "Sure, but we are all hunting Nur at the moment, can you wait until next month?"

    The disparate nature of the entire way the game is built and designed, aimed at encouraging player interaction, is actually doing the polar opposite.


    image
    MroxylCaelanRyleighaEthoas
  • TaryiusTaryius Member Posts: 710 @ - Epic Achaean
    Yes
    Sobriquet said:
    Torinn said:
    So let's talk about ways to remove those advantages and even the playing field
    We can't, it's too late. Sure, we can refund Profit for his veil and Penwize for his Island Wings, but that doesn't change the fact all the areas are -intentionally- designed to be so hard to get to that you will pay 5000cr for those wings in the first place, or a few million on a ship and lessons (And the whole "Join the city navy argument is bullshit).

    How many times have you heard:

    CT Bob says, "Mhaldor in"
    CT Ringo says, "I'm out sailing, I can't help yet"
    CT Bob says, "Can someone Rune me up?"
    CT George says, "I'm over on Meropis with no Card or Pebble, so I could, but give me a day"
    CT John says, "Can someone give me a house interview?"
    CT Paul says, "Sure, but we are all hunting Nur at the moment, can you wait until next month?"

    The disparate nature of the entire way the game is built and designed, aimed at encouraging player interaction, is actually doing the polar opposite.


    I'm going to have to respectfully, but entirely disagree with that mindset. With sailing the only exception, Yggdrasil and Meropis and the far north are not much of a barrier to get up and down on, its only a few minutes for each. People use them as excuses to not drop what they are doing at the whim of others.

    I think Achaea has struck a near perfect balance of creating distance, and the feeling of a journey to reach the far reaches, without actually making them inaccessible or too inconvenient to use, with the sole exception being ships because the move as such a slow pace.
  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,386 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No
    I think part of the reason people use it as an excuse to not drop what they are doing and help out is also the return trip. Meropis is a massive pita if you don't have a card or pebble. If i could be bashing in Nur, place a hermit #2, fling hermit home, do what i need, fling hermit back again I would. But instead you have to get out to the tree room, embrace, move around the rats (not easy at times), embrace again, then do what you need to do and repeat to get back again.

    The game is intentionally inaccessible so people will pay to make things easier for themselves.  
    image
    MroxylShirszae
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,795 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yes
    Astarod said:
    So, no offense, but I hope Profit steals from all y'all "yes's" so you can at least see what it's like to lose something you care about. It can function as his hit list :D To be honest most of you guys stay on guard stacks anyways. (Most, not all, evidence nazis).


    Profit once stole something from me that ended up selling to a third party for 2000cr, I think I've got most people beat on this one. I'm still not mad, and it ended up opening up an interesting dynamic between the two.

    Caelan
  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 325 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    No
    Torinn said:
    My issue are the thieves who do it for nothing but luls and have no intention of ever giving anything back but just want tears.
    That's every single thief ever, because every single thief does this at least once. The problem with this kind of power, is that it breeds asshole-players. Sadly, it only takes one asshole-player to start costing you other players, who would have contributed positively to the game.

    I would love for a form of theft to stay, as a game mechanic. Thing is, just like RL, there has to be a severe beat down on any thief that gets caught. There has to be something that will prevent that power from creating an asshole-player. Right now, there is no balance point, which is where all the saltiness towards theft is coming from.

    Caelan said:
    But like..  Achaea has survived for 20+ years with it so..  that argument can go both ways.
    Surviving and thriving are not the same though.


  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 2,999 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No
    Since we're discussing theft experiences, I'll discuss my own and why I see theft as such a detriment.

    First time I was robbed was when I was still a new player. Had a bad electrical blackout and when I logged back on I found my character had been stripped of every possession they owned. I inquired on market for some time with no response. Later an individual contacted me because they felt sorry for what happened and gave me some gold to get on my way. If it wasnt for them, I honestly doubt I'd have cared much for this new game.

    Having lived in a generally poor environment, my ping wasnt phenomenal. At the time selfishness was faaar lower on the list so those that got targeted were generally the poorer players or newer ones. Even with people saying "lol get triggers", my ping at the time could be juuuust a bit too slow before I could rewear something. So I'd lose things of importance to those thieves that enjoyed stripping players, sometimes out of spite.

    Eventually I just stopped caring and stopped playing for well over a year.

    One thing that really triggered it was a rather known thief that was repeatedly targeting a new player. She eventually lost her temper and shouted at them in tells that she is playing this game because she is depressed verging on something bigger and he is ruining her life. The thief was then immediately contacted in a tell by one of the admin and told not to reply at all. The victim was then told she cannot speak such things and then banned. The thief then got a log, pasted it up with the comment of "lol". I'd have to say that likely was the last straw I had with the game for some time before coming back later on.
    RyxInariel
  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 325 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    No
    @Pyori : ^^^^^ I REST MY CASE!
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 1,800 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 21
    Yes
    But your statement was theft being the thing hurting Achaea's player retention more than anything. Even a handful of people citing it as their reason doesn't hold a candle to the hundreds who have quit playing for completely unrelated reasons.

  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 1,800 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 21
    Yes
    It doesn't really prove a point, though. Correlation ~= causation. My sister was stolen from a number of times and she quit. It wasn't because of theft, though. (edit)- It was even around the time he made that post! As well, in terms of quitting, 14% still isn't majority numbers.

    We get it: You don't like theft in any form. You can stop saying it in every post you make.

This discussion has been closed.