Do you like theft in Achaea?

Ryx

Asmodron said:

If we wanted to 'increase the danger of stepping outside the city', then there are other avenues that could be taken. Making weather temperatures affect those unprepared, roaming raiding npcs, heck make bandits on roads like those in Sojourn even. Who knows. 

I really really support this. I love tension as much as the next person, and I'm surprised there's not more stuff like this. I really like the mechanic of clothing warmth, but I've never had to use it because I've never explored the wilderness. I would love seasons bringing the need for new outfits. 

Cooper

You guys are really bad at following instructions.

Can close this thread now, has served its purpose!

Torinn

@Asmodron those ideas are amazing.

Zackery

Cooper said:

You guys are really bad at following instructions.

Can close this thread now, has served its purpose!

You said no comments necessary, not no comments allowed!

Caelan

Morsul said:

maybe if we use the electoral college, the thieves would win

Not if they commit suicide first so they can't rat on the big boss. (I see your conspiracy theory and lack of basic understanding of the electoral process and raise you. Your move)

Jovolo said:

It's not really a minority though. 


2/3 of nearly 100 people who answered the poll have said they do not like theft, at the very least not in its current incarnation. You can try and spin that how you like but the point stands that it is you who is in the minority of people that enjoy how theft currently impacts the game

True.  My vocal minority comment wasn't really about just this issue though.   And the point remains that even if 100% of the forum-using population answered, it very well may still be a minority.  Extrapolating 2/3 of 87 votes (currently) doesn't mean it is an adequate sample size. Especially if there are multiple accounts, and a chunk of the 66% have said they don't mind it or see where it adds value to the gaming experience of Achaea, they just want an aspect of it changed (which could also be construed as a 'yes' or null vote).

  I like "X".  My wife doesn't, she prefers "Y" therefore 50% of the world's population hates "X".   It *might* be true... but likely isn't.

It also doesn't help that the poll is binary and forces any who answer to choose one or the other, with no 'middle-of-the-road' options.  

ETA: It won't break my heart to see it gone, I just think it offers some interesting aspects as well as conflict.

Atalkez

I would agree that it added an interesting element to the game, if there wasn’t any legitimate drawback from being a thief. This system doesn’t enforce any drawback whatsoever on the thief, which has been the main complaint forever, unless you’re a pker and want to chase serpents around. Given the most prolific thief is able to hide at will with no counter, this system doesn’t do anything to alleviate the fact that exacting revenge is difficult and only serves to put you further out of playtime dealing with a one sided affair.

Buying your stuff back is okay, I guess, but there really should be a legitimate avenue to exact revenge that isn’t hard countered with an old auction item, or a ship you bought with stolen gold anyway.

Caelan

My biggest bitch is that I had my veil nerfed because it was deemed "too unbalanced". I had my torc and a couple other arties removed for credit refund.  This seems like an admin oversight, or willful negligence to allow any old auction items to persist with abilities nerfed for reasons of being unbalanced. At least make it a temp timer like the Gem of Cloaking or something.

[Deleted User]

Caelan said:

My biggest bitch is that I had my veil nerfed because it was deemed "too unbalanced". I had my torc and a couple other arties removed for credit refund.  This seems like an admin oversight, or willful negligence to allow any old auction items to persist with abilities nerfed for reasons of being unbalanced. At least make it a temp timer like the Gem of Cloaking or something.

Profit said he was open to changes... So long as said changes don't impact him (aka nerfing his veil). Lmao.

Caelan

Pyori said:

Caelan said:

My biggest bitch is that I had my veil nerfed because it was deemed "too unbalanced". I had my torc and a couple other arties removed for credit refund.  This seems like an admin oversight, or willful negligence to allow any old auction items to persist with abilities nerfed for reasons of being unbalanced. At least make it a temp timer like the Gem of Cloaking or something.

Profit said he was open to changes... So long as said changes don't impact him (aka nerfing his veil). Lmao.

Well...yeah.  i was too as long as it didnt effect me. 

Accipiter

I like theft for the espionage possibilities. Stealing intel or important items from major figures is good. I don't think things like that have really been possible for a long time but I have rose tinted glasses on from the time you could steal important letters or a journal that showed the minutes from prelate meetings.

I think I am convinced that probably theft shouldn't happen, but I like the current casing system as a way to make theft largely irrelevant except if you are going to put a lot of effort into targeting one specific person. If you could only have a case on a very limited amount of people at once I think it would be better though.

Profit's veil is more OP now than it was before the veil changes because there is no way to pierce it, make it so the masks pierce it for veil holders like they used to and I think it will be fine (ish) again.

Dochitha

Pickpocket specific mechanism should go away. Ethereal shroud should combo with common veil to locate L2 veil, but not upgrading common veil to L2.

Though theft can open up RP and espionage etc. But I generally hate taking/claiming other peoples possession or assets as yours , against their will.

Illarion

Cooper said:

You guys are really bad at following instructions.

Can close this thread now, has served its purpose!

Which was, I assume, to create a poll with an unclear, unhelpful question tilted to give you the answer you wanted so that you could use it to bolster your arguments in the other thread?

A fairer question would be: "Do you believe that a theft system could be designed in a way which would be beneficial for the game?" - you'll note in particular that many people voted no, but were open to the concept. 

Cooper

The question was designed exactly how I wanted it, and it is a very relevant question.

Whether someone wants theft in the game or not was the information I wanted. Anything else was irrelevant.

Please take your aggressiveness elsewhere.

Torinn

Dochitha said:

Pickpocket specific mechanism should go away. Ethereal shroud should combo with common veil to locate L2 veil, but not upgrading common veil to L2.

Though theft can open up RP and espionage etc. But I generally hate taking/claiming other peoples possession or assets as yours , against their will.

What if pickpocket could be used against Intel items only?  Letters, journals, etc.?  I like the idea of being able to grab Intel that way and think it'd be a good thing to keep it in the game while not allowing the pillaging of valuables.  Granted a journal can be valuable I guess, but not like normal credit items.

Jovolo

This is literally like the Brexit fiasco currently in the UK. People don't necessarily know what they're voting for because the issue a lot more nuanced than a broad yes and no question. So the validity of the poll is disputable depending upon what your actual motive is

Illarion

Cooper said:

The question was designed exactly how I wanted it, and it is a very relevant question.

Whether someone wants theft in the game or not was the information I wanted. Anything else was irrelevant.

Please take your aggressiveness elsewhere.

Pointedly questioning your argumentation is not aggressiveness, and that claim is actually a rather good illustration of the attitude I characterized in the other thread as "infantilizing preciousness".

If the question was designed exactly how you wanted it, then you must have wanted ambiguity because the question isn't clear about whether you're referring to theft in general, any kind of theft, or the current pickpocket/case system.  As the comments make clear.  Anyone who desires ambiguity when fact-finding can only have disingenuous argument in mind.  That's not aggressive, that's just a statement of fact.

@Jovolo: exactly .

Cooper

I got exactly what I wanted out of this - 1/3 of the playerbase thinks theft in some format is good for the game.

1/3 of the population of the game being interested is more than enough to justify some form of theft.

Now that we've established that players do want some form of theft, more reasonable suggestions can be made.

I admit I thought it would be more like 90/10.

What I think about are things like "how many people go to that new area vs. how long did it take to make", and "is this something people are going to use once, or is it going to become part of their character".

My intentions behind the question should be clear now, if not - what I wanted was to know if enough people supported theft to justify having more discussions about it. And the answer is yes, even if I don't agree! 

Illarion

Cooper said:

I got exactly what I wanted out of this - 1/3 of the playerbase thinks theft in some format is good for the game. 

But that's not what you got.  Because people are voting on different questions.  Several people voted "no" because they want a different version of theft.  It's the ambiguity in the question that I'm objecting to.

What your question actually tells you is that at least a third of the playerbase thinks theft in some format is good for the game.  Because you could vote "no" to your question but still support a version of the concept (and several people indicated they did exactly that).

It's hard to use that information in a way that isn't disingenuous because it's not very good quality information.

Morsul

We already know you're in favour of people losing stuff they worked hard for and then probably quitting the game, Illarion.

Torinn

Morsul said:

We already know you're in favour of people losing stuff they worked hard for and then probably quitting the game, Illarion.

You are so salty.  What did you have stolen that was so precious?

Morsul

Promo items. Do you even know how much Profit has swiped using theft? 20k credits. That's over $5000 of value that was bought by other people and that he just took. I honestly cannot believe that there are people who defend theft and want it to stick around.

Illarion

I'm not in favour of promo items being stolen if that helps.  I am in favour of a limited version of theft being implemented in game.

Morsul

Nope. See my post on the other thread: we've tried a lot of 'fixes' to theft and the ending is still the same. Thieves get away with it, victims lose. There is no more middle ground to fight for. The only option is theft's complete removal.

Cooper

Illarion said:

Cooper said:

I got exactly what I wanted out of this - 1/3 of the playerbase thinks theft in some format is good for the game. 

But that's not what you got.  Because people are voting on different questions.  Several people voted "no" because they want a different version of theft.  It's the ambiguity in the question that I'm objecting to.

What your question actually tells you is that at least a third of the playerbase thinks theft in some format is good for the game.  Because you could vote "no" to your question but still support a version of the concept (and several people indicated they did exactly that).

It's hard to use that information in a way that isn't disingenuous because it's not very good quality information.

My intentions behind the question should be clear now, if not - what I wanted was to know if enough people supported theft to justify having more discussions about it. And the answer is yes, even if I don't agree! 

Illarion

Okey doke.  Question could have been better phrased then, but I retract my heinous slur on your motives .

Zackery

Chill y'all... it's a forum poll...

Mercer

I have a question for those who feel that player theft adds a needed element of danger and realism to Achaea.

Is it at all dangerous to be a thief?

The loss of an item of either sentimental importance, or actual real world value, is staggering. What risk does the thief character take? If I become aware of the attempt at theft, I can kill the thief or hire on them. This almost never actually happens, but lets say that it does. I kill the thief. So what? The thief loses a couple of XP compared with the alternative of me being out a potential fortune or my treasured item? It does not equate, and according to the PK rules of Achaea, that is basically the end of it. Even if I kill them prior to the theft, they can bash for an hour and shrug off the loss and try again. The thief doesn't care. If the thief wins there then are lasting consequences. If the thief loses, then there are not.

And speaking of the real world, when someone is a career criminal, they face some hard potential realities. Where is the realism in this system? Plenty of cities and orgs welcome thieves as citizens. There is no jail. They can sit in safety and let their infamy die off if they want to. Theft without meaningful consequences for a failed thief is just a system of griefing. XP loss is irrelevant. Being enemied to cities that you don't care about is irrelevant and I would argue, makes the game better for you since it is more fun.

Achaea would be better off without this.

Torinn

The element of danger isn't for the thief it's for potential victims.  However it's a good discussion to have - how to add danger for the thief too.

Zackery

Between infamy and people having the right to seek revenge, aren't they pretty much open season to get PKed all the time?

Tonin

Zackery said:

Between infamy and people having the right to seek revenge, aren't they pretty much open season to get PKed all the time?

Though I don't steal, I often run around Infamous and with multiple bounties, and nothing ever happens except for the occasional Penwize-surprise, which so far is about a coin toss in terms of whether I die or not. The only thing keeping me from stealing is the fact that I'd mostly be targeting new players, and that's not particularly exciting to me.