Do you like theft in Achaea?

Zackery

True, but I don't think it's just the infamy - it's that a huge swath of the player base has a personal vendetta as opposed to just seeing them when they check for who's infamous and online.

Khel

Worm warp, evade, phase, wings, urn, super wings, ship, house, guards, totem camps, burrow in the wilderness, hang out off-plane, the list goes on.

When I would get a bounty on me as Khel I'd offer to duel for half of it, because otherwise you just weren't claiming it outside of Penwize surprise bell'ing me when I went afk. It's pretty trivial to not face consequences for your actions, and I don't even really have arties and I'm not a serpent. And plus, if I die, I made 5k gold and lost like 10m of bashing. I'd rather have gold than my measly lost .1%

Infamy also requires the hunter be open PK themselves as I understand it? Gotta also be infamous/a Mark/Dauntless.

Torinn

Agreed, the danger is mitigated for the serpent due to its abilities

Morsul

Yeah so let's keep theft around, amirite

Shirszae

At this point you are being anything but helpful to the stance you are representing. Take a breather. 

Thundaga

it's just an anti-novice mechanic which ultimately hurts the game, which should be pro-newbie, not "oh hey I'm a vet serp and find this dumb novice still in bewildered wonderment over the world. No basic anti-theft? Great"

Morsul

Shirszae said:

At this point you are being anything but helpful to the stance you are representing. Take a breather. 

I'll take a breather when theft is eliminated

Morzakai

I'll be honest, I really don't understand how it's legal to randomly steal from people which causes significantly more damage than killing them; but you can't go around randomly killing people.

Illarion

Mercer said:

I have a question for those who feel that player theft adds a needed element of danger and realism to Achaea.

Is it at all dangerous to be a thief?

The loss of an item of either sentimental importance, or actual real world value, is staggering. What risk does the thief character take? If I become aware of the attempt at theft, I can kill the thief or hire on them. This almost never actually happens, but lets say that it does. I kill the thief. So what? The thief loses a couple of XP compared with the alternative of me being out a potential fortune or my treasured item? It does not equate, and according to the PK rules of Achaea, that is basically the end of it. Even if I kill them prior to the theft, they can bash for an hour and shrug off the loss and try again. The thief doesn't care. If the thief wins there then are lasting consequences. If the thief loses, then there are not.

And speaking of the real world, when someone is a career criminal, they face some hard potential realities. Where is the realism in this system? Plenty of cities and orgs welcome thieves as citizens. There is no jail. They can sit in safety and let their infamy die off if they want to. Theft without meaningful consequences for a failed thief is just a system of griefing. XP loss is irrelevant. Being enemied to cities that you don't care about is irrelevant and I would argue, makes the game better for you since it is more fun.

Achaea would be better off without this.

This is a really good question, fairly asked.  I think, when it comes down to it, the "problem" with theft is proportionality.  You can't really expect equivalence - it's a dumb position to say that because a thief can gain gold say, they should have an equivalent amount of gold at risk - but I think you can expect proportionality.

I also think that many of the people playing now don't have a huge amount of experience with how the game used to be for thieves. How it used to be - and more so, how I think it should be - is that thieves are hunted by anyone and everyone outside of their home org whenever they step outside of a city.  It's not about the death, it's about the constancy of the hunt.  You should be open/free PK all the time, and everyone should hate you.

People will object to this line of argument, but that's a big cost.  It makes many (most!) forms of roleplay, of gameplay, difficult to impossible.  It's enormously limiting to the character and to your Achaean experience.  It requires a level of focus and attention to get even simple tasks done that most people playing will not have experienced. It should make bashing back up your experience very difficult unless you go off-plane somewhere or whatever.

And primarily to me, that's ok.  There should be proportionality of narrative consequence.  That is, I think, proportionate to me to the idea that ... I dunno, the thief has taken the order item bestowed upon you by your now deceased God. 

From talking to people who are active, it seems like there isn't much theft really, or thieves, and the game has... forgotten how to deal with them.  I also think it's very difficult if the prime exponent of theft is someone like Profit who is better placed than most (and probably best placed given the veil) to frustrate that proportionality of narrative consequence.

I have other thoughts on specifics but people don't seem to love big long posts these days, so I'll leave it there.

Caelan

Even classy thieves like Tenebrus and Profit had to take time off from stealing so they could hunt up the experience they lost from The Persecution. Otherwise they would die to anyone they stole from.  


Also, perhaps look at raising the level requirement.  I am pretty sure that the Level 30 restriction has been in place since the time level 90 was as much as anyone could achieve.  Nowadays that proportion would be closer to level 80 being the new mininum for theft.  So maybe that is a decent compromise as well.

Azazell

I like theft, even as a non-thief. However, I believe it could really use some changes. I'm not really experienced enough to tell how yet, but... I do like the class fantasy aspect of it. And I expect to catch dirty thieves in the act too, as I nobly guard the city.

Morsul

Let's try this again:

Thieves care about the things and gold they steal. They don't care about exp or levels.

Therefore, any solution that revolves around "Let's make death the counter to theft" is not going to work.

Daric

Morsul said:

Let's try this again:

Thieves care about the things and gold they steal. They don't care about exp or levels.

Therefore, any solution that revolves around "Let's make death the counter to theft" is not going to work.

Didn't they fix that by making the chit, the only way the thief profits off the theft, removed if they die to a Mark or the victim? I guess the ability to buyout the item by the thief will always exist, but it still costs them, and costs a lot more if they do lose the chit. So they lose more than just experience or levels.

Tonin

Daric said:

So they lose more than just experience or levels.

If I burglarized a house, packed all their stuff into a van and started driving it to my hideout, but on the way got a flat tire and had to ditch the van, do you think my tears would be as bitter as the person whose house I ransacked?

tldr I don't think chits "fixed" the issue Morsul is complaining about. They still are looking at a very light slap on the wrist versus a potentially devastating loss for their victim.

Rispok

Make a new item that costs 1000g, where if pickpocketed (can happen as a high percentage, randomly, in place of any other item attempting to be stolen) it instantly kills the thief and gives the target a portion of the gold the thief has.

Sophi

Make anyone that types Pickpocket even if it's just to read the ab file instadie

Zackery

You pay 500cr and receive the Hottest Potato.

Caelan

New gold sink...shops can sell "the shiniest orb". Cost is 200,000g.  Becomes the default first item pickpocketed.

Cooper

I know that's a joke idea, but I would buy one of those instantly. 

Dochitha

Cooper said:

I know that's a joke idea, but I would buy one of those instantly. 

I agree. Actually a good idea! 200k is steep, newbies out of reach. But is a good idea!

Ryx

High enough that not everyone will have one on them constantly like other defences, but people with things they consider more valuable would want it. 

I like it.

Jovolo

Christ now we're suggesting thieves steal 200k from us without having to lift a finger!

Skye

No it only costs 200k, but it has no resale value. So we're paying 200k to troll people.

Lenn

(Market): Profit says, "Selling a bunch of shiniest orbs."

Caelan

Dochitha said:

Cooper said:

I know that's a joke idea, but I would buy one of those instantly. 

I agree. Actually a good idea! 200k is steep, newbies out of reach. But is a good idea!

Was half serious, half joke.  And FFS make it resetting or something.

Point was it is a massive gold sink for admin. But also adds a defence the thief cant see.

Edit: unless they buy the 2000cr arty to see it.  Then buy the 5000cr arty to bypass it.  

See Im solving admin woes, player woes, everything.  They get gold gone, new revenue coming in, players get a defence against theft.

Tahquil

Massive gold sink yeah, but it will still leave the newbs who are the main targets of thief high and dry if not painting a bigger target on them.

[Deleted User]

Caelan said:

And FFS make it resetting or something.

Point was it is a massive gold sink for admin.

If you make it resetting, it's not really a 'massive gold sink' in the grand scheme of things. You just buy it once and forget about it, then a few days later you already have that 200k back.

Caelan

Tahquil said:

Massive gold sink yeah, but it will still leave the newbs who are the main targets of thief high and dry if not painting a bigger target on them.

Not if Houses help them out  - putting them in newbie packs in shops and spending more of their gold.  I get it isnt the easiest. I had been trying for over a RL year to get the Scions newbie pack program off the ground through delegation because I didn't have time.  Then I ran out of time as HL. 

Take my last few recommendations though and pair them.  Can't steal from level 60 and under (or 80, something higher than current 30) and then sell these.

Gives them enough time to bash the gold, and learn about theft. Can even make it into a house requirement to get full membership.

Kresslack

Make it part of Augmentation, but on the expensive side to make, like gold inks.

Silvarien

Just peeking in; I doubt anybody even remembers me anymore.

Theft in Achaea is bad because the resources are bought with real money. In its original form, it was kept for a very long time out of realism until Tecton gathered tons of info on it. I don't remember the exact numbers, but a good deal of people that got robbed either quit Achaea fully on every character or drastically reduced their hours spent on the game. That is when old-school theft was changed: it was decisively found that it was terrible for player retention.

Due to not having been on the game for a very long time, I don't even know if it's changed since then. But, I AM pretty sure that the users who are not into PvP and enjoy RP free of conflict would rather not have to deal with thieves.