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Do you like theft in Achaea?

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  • IllarionIllarion Member Posts: 89 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Yes
    Silvarien said:
    Just peeking in; I doubt anybody even remembers me anymore.

    Theft in Achaea is bad because the resources are bought with real money. In its original form, it was kept for a very long time out of realism until Tecton gathered tons of info on it. I don't remember the exact numbers, but a good deal of people that got robbed either quit Achaea fully on every character or drastically reduced their hours spent on the game. That is when old-school theft was changed: it was decisively found that it was terrible for player retention.

    Due to not having been on the game for a very long time, I don't even know if it's changed since then. But, I AM pretty sure that the users who are not into PvP and enjoy RP free of conflict would rather not have to deal with thieves.


    I remember! This is another bad anti-theft argument though.  It is not the case that theft is "bad" because the "resources are bought with real money".  First: not true of all relevant resources.  Items are gifted, gold even can be gifted, or earned through attainment (House items, order items).  Second: the distinction between resources bought with "real money" and effort/gameplay is not as meaningful as people sometimes think.  I am now at an age, and stage of my life, where I would far, far, far rather have a genuinely free hour than I would... let's say $20.  I would be much "angrier" if I lost an hour's worth of effort in a game, than I would if I lost that kind of investment.  Money is just a form of exchange really - there are many types of "value".

    Secondly, there's an underlying assumption to this type of argument that something bought with "real money" somehow retains its connection to that "real money" once it is in game.  That there is some kind of continuing connection between the money you spent and the "money" you bought.  There isn't.  You haven't bought money.  What you have bought is access to an imaginary item that only has effect/meaning within the game, and that is subject at all times to the changeable rules of the game.  And the whims of the rule-makers.  Now those rule-makers are rational business people (usually) and so they probably won't do anything too radical or something that entirely dissipates the value of the relevant item, but they don't have to.  Nicola could declare tomorrow that gold would no longer be an acceptable currency for anything and we'd all have to suck it up (mostly - you could run some kind of shadow player currency for some stuff). 

    The argument you should be making is the one I made above - proportionality.  There should be proportionality of risk/consequence - there is no bright line.  There is no "this is wrong, because someone in a game is affecting my real world money".  That's a category error, and it's a bad argument.

    Torinn
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 818 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 2019
    No
    It sure is a category error when you make a strawman of it.

    ETA: Not even really a bad argument though. It's hotly debated whether gacha counts as gambling, and I think it's been to show the same signs of addiction, so that argument wasn't made, but it certainly could be.
  • IllarionIllarion Member Posts: 89 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited August 2019
    Yes
    That's not a strawman argument, what I'm doing is explaining the principles behind the argument (in good faith, and fairly) and showing why they are wrong.  That's... the opposite of that.  Feel free to point to the error in the logic, I'll wait.
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 818 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    No
    He didn't say it was his money, so the whole thing about gifts is absurd. If it's a promo item, someone paid for it with real money.

    He did not claim that theft takes money directly from another player's pocket, but that it's bad because it includes things people paid real money on.

    Also, no item in Achaea is imaginary. An item in Achaea is as real as a Netflix subscription, access to an ebook, rights to an MP3, etc.
    Asmodron
  • TorinnTorinn Member Posts: 1,350 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 2019
    Yes
    You missed the point of Illarion's post completely, Lenn.  They're saying that you can't steal irl money from someone because the moment it gets converted to game assets it is subject to all rules and mechanics as allowed in the game.  So saying theft is tantamount to stealing irl money is a bad argument that isn't accurate
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    Caelan
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 818 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    No
    I didn't miss that. I called it a strawman.
  • TorinnTorinn Member Posts: 1,350 @ - Epic Achaean
    Yes
    I don't get how it's a straw man.  It is accurate. ..
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    Caelan
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,489 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No
    Kinda wish the poll would show the complete list of who has voted for which option. Just because I am curious.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    Numira
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 818 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    No
    A strawman is when you create a modified version of someone else's argument with a flaw that it did not previously have for the purpose of attacking that flaw.

    It's true that if you take all the rare minerals I got from paid promotions, that you have not stolen money from me.

    However, you have taken something I paid money for, and it would be natural to be upset over that. At that point, whether you're robbing the character or the actual player is debatable.
  • PuxiPuxi Member Posts: 625 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Lenn said:
    A strawman is when you create a modified version of someone else's argument with a flaw that it did not previously have for the purpose of attacking that flaw.

    It's true that if you take all the rare minerals I got from paid promotions, that you have not stolen money from me.

    However, you have taken something I paid money for, and it would be natural to be upset over that. At that point, whether you're robbing the character or the actual player is debatable.
    Wouldn't this also mean that if you got bashing artefacts, bashed gold, bought rare minerals with said gold then got rare minerals stolen that they would be stealing something you paid money for?
  • TorinnTorinn Member Posts: 1,350 @ - Epic Achaean
    Yes
    Right.  Where does it stop?  It's impossible to distinguish
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • LennLenn Member Posts: 818 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    No
    I'd personally think that's stretching it, but there could be someone who did pay money for them.

    Really, the fact you can use real money to buy anything in the game that's for sale, albeit indirectly, muddles everything up.
  • JovoloJovolo Member Posts: 3,339 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No
    It's not a good argument against theft though, I don't think that's the direction we should head in for any serious reform of the system. This entire game is all about an exorbitant real-life investment of both money and time. Any implementation of thievery is going to take those resources from one player and hand them into the hands of another. This exchange exists across many game mechanics including exp loss which has already been criticized as a bad comparison. 

    The argument is to the extent thievery should be allowed to steal these player investments. That is why I proposed above that we take away the ability to thieve items and set a cap for the amount of gold that can be stolen from an individual across a certain time period. I don't know about the numbers, that can be completely open for debate. That seems reasonable in my opinion, or is it not? 
    Cailin
  • TorinnTorinn Member Posts: 1,350 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited August 2019
    Yes
    If I were a thief I would have no interest in gold.  It's the rarities or juicy Intel I could get that would interest me.  Of course I also love to roleplay with people and would be okay reaping punishments as appropriate
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
    JiraishinProfit
  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 326 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    No
    I have personally seen players abandon Achaea because of theft. Good players that would have contributed much to the game if given half a chance.

    The discussion around theft has been going for over two RL decades! So let's get honest here: Theft in Achaea isn't only broken, it's irreparable.

    It's the single most damaging thing that Achaea suffers, in terms of player retention.

    The mere fact that this thread exists, is evidence enough that theft should become one of those things no one even remembers was a thing.
    ZbacoMorsul
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yes
    Athelas said:
    It's the single most damaging thing that Achaea suffers, in terms of player retention.
    [citation needed]

    Caelan
  • AthelasAthelas Cape Town South AfricaMember Posts: 326 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited August 2019
    No
    Pyori said:
    Athelas said:
    It's the single most damaging thing that Achaea suffers, in terms of player retention.
    [citation needed]
    Citation already extant above, read whole thread as well as other threads on this topic. It's been discussed to death.
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2019
    Yes
    Athelas said:
    Citation already extant above, read whole thread as well as other threads on this topic. It's been discussed to death.
    They haven't quit though. You said theft is the single most damaging thing Achaea suffers, when it comes to player retention. Prove it.

    Your anecdotal 'evidence' surrounding people you personally know have quit "because of theft" does not mean that's why the majority of people who have quit, have quit because of theft. Ergo, [citation needed]. I mean, as an example, all the people who have posted 'I quit' threads in like the past 5 years, none of them have been because of theft.

  • AstarodAstarod Member Posts: 933 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited August 2019
    No
    Pyori said:
    Athelas said:
    Citation already extant above, read whole thread as well as other threads on this topic. It's been discussed to death.
    They haven't quit though. You said theft is the single most damaging thing Achaea suffers, when it comes to player retention. Prove it.

    Your anecdotal 'evidence' surrounding people you personally know have quit "because of theft" does not mean that's why the majority of people who have quit, have quit because of theft. Ergo, [citation needed]. I mean, as an example, all the people who have posted 'I quit' threads in like the past 5 years, none of them have been because of theft.

     You read and remember all the I quit threads in the past five years? 
    The Divine voice of Twilight echoes in your head, "See that it is. I espy a tithe of potential in your mortal soul, Astarod Blackstone. Let us hope that it flourishes and does not falter as so many do."

    Aegis, God of War says, "You are dismissed from My demense, Astarod. Go forth and fight well. Bleed fiercely, and climb the purpose you have sought to chase for."
    Caelan
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yes
    Astarod said:
    Pyori said:
    Athelas said:
    Citation already extant above, read whole thread as well as other threads on this topic. It's been discussed to death.
    They haven't quit though. You said theft is the single most damaging thing Achaea suffers, when it comes to player retention. Prove it.

    Your anecdotal 'evidence' surrounding people you personally know have quit "because of theft" does not mean that's why the majority of people who have quit, have quit because of theft. Ergo, [citation needed]. I mean, as an example, all the people who have posted 'I quit' threads in like the past 5 years, none of them have been because of theft.

     You read and remember all the I quit threads in the past five years? 
    You haven't/don't?

    Caelan
  • MinifieMinifie Member Posts: 3,209 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2019
    Yes
    Cobault said:
    Shirszae said:
    Kinda wish the poll would show the complete list of who has voted for which option. Just because I am curious.
    You can see the profile images of people that have voted yes/no, and you can click them and get most people's names. Unsurprisingly, I found MOST of the people that voted yes are people that are either fuckin dormant atm or people that would straight up never have to worry about anyone ever trying to steal from them in a million years because they're combatants and no [good] thief is gonna go face to face with present day theft and attempt to steal from someone that can stomp them. Edit: oh, forgot to mention the people that would just throw their wallet at the screen and immediately remedy the problem if they actually got robbed somehow. Sorry, didn't mean to forget you lot.

    The fact people even try to defend theft in this game is honestly baffling. It's some legacy shit that needs to die. The same shit that used to fly back when you kept your class skills in dragonform doesn't fly today. It's game evolution.

     I don't buy credits at all unless I plan to convert it into gold and [typically] kill some time at roulette. If I bought 100 credits and turned them into gold and disconnected suddenly and got back on to see I was pickpocketed clean out of a legitimate $40? I'd quit this game so goddamn quick it'd make the last ~14 years of my life tremble (since I started Achaea at all.) You tunnel vision people don't realise we have players that aren't in areas of the world with Godlike internet and pings, who have regular and consistent lag, disconnects and shit. Why should they be the prime target of something so detrimental to gameplay?

    Tl;dr - Most of the people that voted Yes are people that are 99% likely to never even have to worry about theft to begin with. Theft is fucking stupid. It should have been taken out back and shot a long time ago.
    Hi, I am not dormant, don't steal and am a middling combatant. 

    Half the people who voted "yes" are at my level or worse! A lot of very good combatants hate theft too, using it as a metric of any kind isn't useful. It may be relevant if every person who hit "yes" was a known thief, but I see, perhaps, 4? in that list. Theft can remain, but it does need to ensure protections against stealing things that have had RL money put into them, even non-resetting items should be safe from theft, if they have been paid to be non-decay.
    CaelanJiraishinNumira
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yes
    Cobault said:
    The fact people even try to defend theft in this game is honestly baffling.

    If I bought 100 credits and turned them into gold and disconnected suddenly and got back on to see I was pickpocketed clean out of a legitimate $40? I'd quit this game so goddamn quick it'd make the last ~14 years of my life tremble (since I started Achaea at all.) You tunnel vision people don't realise we have players that aren't in areas of the world with Godlike internet and pings, who have regular and consistent lag, disconnects and shit. Why should they be the prime target of something so detrimental to gameplay?
    ...


  • JovoloJovolo Member Posts: 3,339 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No
    Those are opinions from two years ago man, don't be that guy
    CobaultMorsul
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No
    Pyori said:
    Cobault said:
    The fact people even try to defend theft in this game is honestly baffling.

    If I bought 100 credits and turned them into gold and disconnected suddenly and got back on to see I was pickpocketed clean out of a legitimate $40? I'd quit this game so goddamn quick it'd make the last ~14 years of my life tremble (since I started Achaea at all.) You tunnel vision people don't realise we have players that aren't in areas of the world with Godlike internet and pings, who have regular and consistent lag, disconnects and shit. Why should they be the prime target of something so detrimental to gameplay?
    ...

    People are allowed to change their opinions on things. "You used to have a different opinion!" isn't quite the argument(?) you seem to think it is.
    JovoloCobaultShirszaeMorsul
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 2,124 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yes
    "I used to think beating people up for no reason was cool but now I don't. Please like me."

  • CobaultCobault Member Posts: 186 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited August 2019
    No
    Pyori said:
    Cobault said:
    The fact people even try to defend theft in this game is honestly baffling.

    If I bought 100 credits and turned them into gold and disconnected suddenly and got back on to see I was pickpocketed clean out of a legitimate $40? I'd quit this game so goddamn quick it'd make the last ~14 years of my life tremble (since I started Achaea at all.) You tunnel vision people don't realise we have players that aren't in areas of the world with Godlike internet and pings, who have regular and consistent lag, disconnects and shit. Why should they be the prime target of something so detrimental to gameplay?
    ...

    Haha, yeah, you got me there. I guess I grew up a bit and matured some since two years ago.
    You know, I got a good job, new house, wife, hang out with friends a bit more, do more than sit infront of my computer nonstop, etc. All sorts of crazy shit that occupies a lot of my time. It doesn't take too much in life to take a step back and realize some shit is just straight up toxic. If I can manage 4 hours a week of doing more than standing around chatting with folks on my phone while I have some downtime at work, it's honestly surprising.
    Theft is some toxic shit. I'd hate to imagine someone with my amount of available time trying to play this game just for the chill and rp while having to worry about their shit getting stolen. This is why I said - present me? I'd 100% quit if I got robbed, cus it would only be when I was super vulnerable or dc'd. Life can change your opinions and open your eyes to things when you consider people from their own perspective. But, Achaea has always had a playerbase that screams me, me, me! I'm guilty of being part of that at one point. However, it has nothing to do with me trying to get any of you people to like me, trust me.
    Edit: Oh, and yeah. Two years ago I worked at a trash job, lived with my parents, chainsmoked cigarettes, my grandpa was alive, I had one less nephew, my uncle was alive... shit, I can go on and on about what changed over two years. A lot of things can change your outlook over that amount of time. So yeah, bitch move on bringing up some old stupid shit like that. The only thing you accomplished was making me cringe at my edgelord past self and how selfish and shitty I used to be.

    @Minifie I have no clue what list you were looking at. You and maybe one other person are the only ones that don't fit any of my three options.
    EthoasAthelas
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 2,577 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yes
    Athelas said:

    The discussion around theft has been going for over two RL decades! So let's get honest here: Theft in Achaea isn't only broken, it's irreparable.

    But like..  Achaea has survived for 20+ years with it so..  that argument can go both ways.


This discussion has been closed.