Third Black Wave: Electric Boogaloo

Astarod

Farrah said:

Qwindor said:

@Makarios and @Nicola : I will say that I liked the event and the foreshadowing of things to come. There were however several things that I think were not controlled but I am only going to mention one here. At the end of the events for the championship, in which I was asleep because of me being in Europe, I log in this morning and see over 100 guards dead from Targossas being toxic as none other as they have showed in the past to be and continue to show now when they won the staff again. I am sorry but something like that because you give someone 10+ TF's which makes them damn near impossible to kill and even allowing a level of griefing to that scale to happen when I know in the past that groups have been told not to do that. I don't know what it is about Targossas but it really seems that after a certain point that they are getting preferential treatment in more than one way and have gotten it in the past. I am trying not to be biased in this whole situation but at a certain point it just makes it honestly a point of why do I want to come around and enjoy my playtime when people do things like this. I know I cannot be the only one who thinks this and not the only one upset over the outcome which honestly some of us already knew was going to happen because of past experiences.

Edit: Forgot to add in that we had no font powers available which could have helped prevent the massive amount of damage that was caused which would normally be something that would have had to be dealt with.

Admin have never discouraged guard bashing. I explicitly remember some suggesting people should guard bash a city until it is bankrupt. I have no intention of doing that! Was just one guard bash. But it's tradition for the heavily truefavoured staffwielder to do that to a city, and we did Mhaldor after Tesha's win so this time we did Ashtan.

Guards can be re-hired though. It's just making an IC stand. Not meant to ruin anyone's life!

(I am pretty sure Astarod, an Ashtani, has been bragging about doing this multiple times to Hashan recently even. It would be a bit hypocritical for Ashtan to be upset)

Is it something I enjoy seeing? No. Is it something I have venomous, flaming rage about OOC? Nah. I’ll probably kill a lot of Targossian guards now too. Depends on how I’m feeling. I think it’s kinda telling that Farrah was too scared to hit while we had actual defenders, but who isn’t these days? 

I don’t brag about killing guards, but when I do dispatch city loyals like that, I don’t have 12 truefavors  

(We don’t need it) 

Anyways, congrats again!

Farrah

Edit: In my better judgement, this is not worth responding to at all.

You are welcome to come guard bash us, though. Targossas has been waiting for a massive raid ever since we joined the TT. Has been disappointing, believe it or not.

Astarod

Farrah said:

I am absolutely terrified, Astarod. Ashtan absolutely did not have a three line QW during the raid, and Dunn and Penwize definitely did not qq during it to avoid it. My fear is overwhelming, but I try my best!

(We raided at the obvious and typical time - right after I got the staff and finished exploring keep; you are coming off as a very sore loser)

I don’t really care what I come across as? I was being sincere. Guard bashes are what they are and frankly, cities generally recover fairly quickly. Look at Hashan and Mhaldor- they seem to be doing fine. It’s really no big deal. 

Just sayin, we’ll repay the favor, and we don’t need supah powahs to do it! 

For the third time, congrats! 

Archaeon

Lol   

Sophi

First, I just want to say I appreciate everyone asking mostly well thought out questions and thanks to the admin team for taking the time to patiently answer them. 

Second, I have terrible judgement so I will venture a response. @Astarod Ashtans top defenders noped out when they saw the raid group, we can't control that. Props to @Cyzhar, @Kuririn, @Uvian, @Ethoas, and many others for sticking around though. Please come guard raid us back. 

Third, I dont have a third but it felt like I needed one so...Happy Father's Day and see you guys in the CTF!

Astarod

Sophi said:

First, I just want to say I appreciate everyone asking mostly well thought out questions and thanks to the admin team for taking the time to patiently answer them. 

Second, I have terrible judgement so I will venture a response. @Astarod Ashtans top defenders noped out when they saw the raid group, we can't control that. Props to @Cyzhar, @Kuririn, @Uvian, @Ethoas, and many others for sticking around though. Please come guard raid us back. 

Third, I dont have a third but it felt like I needed one so...Happy Father's Day and see you guys in the CTF!

Yeah! I’ll try to- promise. I’m really not blaming you guys, I’m just mad (if anything) that it never seems to line up perfectly. Some of the more fun skirmishes against targossas are earlier in the day now for me.

In any case- it’s really not a big deal. Props to our defenders, and sorry I couldn’t be there (I celebrated Father’s Day yesterday)

Atalkez

As if Jhui didn’t guard bash every city for the first week we got Staff. Qwindor should know better, hypocritical whining isn’t a good look.

Tiax

Keorin said:

Taryius said:

I'd say this should of been pretty obvious, the staff of Nicator is the most powerful item we know of, and we know it -can- be used against the Tsol'teth. I don't know about other factions but it was definitely made clear and agreed upon that even the chance to get it back was worth the risk.

I disagree. I think it was obvious that it would -help-, but did anyone really assume that it was -the- thing that would determine whether this event ended in a victory or like it did? There were both meta reasons (tying an event to a contest that only a limited number of people can seriously compete in seems like a poor choice for an event that people are so invested in. No event should swing on whether one person can't make a specific login time, for instance, which can easily happen in the games), and plenty of lore reasons not to believe that it was.

After all, while the staff has been -very- potent against Tsol'teth in the hands of a deSangre, it's been...less than effective against them in the hands of adventurers. Tesha was hardly able to wave the staff and defeat the Tsol'teth, same with Jarrod during the second Black Wave. Why should we have assumed that -this- time if we won the staff, it would be the singular key to winning against the Tsol'teth, when it was virtually irrelevant in the past?

I don't think the staff was ever a great thing to use as a win condition, especially with how many of us were stuck fighting tide and leading resistances instead of prepping for the games, but I think that it could have been a much better ending if we'd at least known what we were fighting over. Instead, 2/3 of the coalition outright banned participating in large part because we just didn't know it would have such a big effect.

Call us all dumb if you like, but I'll maintain that it would have been easy to give some clue that this time, the staff would matter more, and that it would have been a way more fun conclusion if everyone knew there was such a big reason to fight over it.

To follow up on this, the Tsol'teth said:

"This ancient relic will be the key that secures our continued growth for the generations to come. By the will of the Genesis, twice each century, we of Anzari-tarin shall test the best Tezlari-tarin has to offer. Participation requires assent in advancing the future of the Tsol'teth race: a minor sampling, undertaken by all who dare to try and claim possession of Nicator's staff."

It was very hard for me to find a way to read this other than "participating in the games is itself aiding the Tsol'teth".  My understanding was that the manner in which the staff will secure their growth was by leveraging it as bait to get people to submit to sampling.

I'm sure there's a lot of IC information scattered around that I'm not privy to that would have hinted that having a Coalition member win the staff was the key, but it feels like it wouldn't have taken much to have a Coalition-aligned denizen make a public or clan post saying, "We need to win the staff, even if it means being sampled".

Lenn

In my opinion, the biggest design flaw is that sampling only required killing someone in a game where death is cheap and difficult problems are often solved by throwing adventurer lives at it until the problem goes away.

Because of this, the complaint they might have sampled people if they tried too hard is a bit silly in light of the complaint that they were too OP.

If the tsol'teth required some consent or a long period of uninterrupted time to gather samples, it'd be a bit different.

Makarios

Penwize said:

Rhivona said:

The Teth honour all their bargains, to the letter. So, they were already bound to their word to hand the staff over to the victor of the Games.

Is this true? Because there was a thing that Gattan'bahar told me was going to happen, but did not happen.  Did it just get forgotten about or something?

This is still going to happen.

Lenn

I want to know where the tsol'teth quartermaster is to bother them about the appraisal of my armour.

Shirszae

@Tiax The thing is, going for the staff should have been the obvious choice  for obvious reasons. People were making a big tiff of being sampled, but that was such a minor thing to be concerned about in the face of the possibility of getting what is effectively the most powerful artifact known to mortals back in coalition hands. The real problem is that people were set on what they wanted to do and not do and unwilling to consider anything else.

And that is fine, if that is how you all wanted to play it, but the evidence of the scrupulousness of the Tsol'teth with their word was there, and I know some people keep pointing at it, and they were all mostly ignored, so yeah. 

Personally, I found the event to be overall pretty fun, and I am intrigued to know where things will go from here, but I have to admit to some disappointment with how the 'chapter' lets say, ended. I am aware this is but a beginning, but nonetheless, I would have liked something a little more dynamic than some gods shouting.

Jiraishin

I'm really hopeful that the Tide retreating doesn't spell the tsol'teth being back-burnered for a while. There's so much still unresolved, that felt like it was getting put off till the Staff stuff was finished. 

Astarod

Jiraishin said:

I'm really hopeful that the Tide retreating doesn't spell the tsol'teth being back-burnered for a while. There's so much still unresolved, that felt like it was getting put off till the Staff stuff was finished. 

I think phase 1 is over. While there is a lot of salt and sweat from the last round, we’ve been given some hints that chapter two will continue.

Farrah

Tiax said:

Keorin said:

Taryius said:

I'd say this should of been pretty obvious, the staff of Nicator is the most powerful item we know of, and we know it -can- be used against the Tsol'teth. I don't know about other factions but it was definitely made clear and agreed upon that even the chance to get it back was worth the risk.

I disagree. I think it was obvious that it would -help-, but did anyone really assume that it was -the- thing that would determine whether this event ended in a victory or like it did? There were both meta reasons (tying an event to a contest that only a limited number of people can seriously compete in seems like a poor choice for an event that people are so invested in. No event should swing on whether one person can't make a specific login time, for instance, which can easily happen in the games), and plenty of lore reasons not to believe that it was.

After all, while the staff has been -very- potent against Tsol'teth in the hands of a deSangre, it's been...less than effective against them in the hands of adventurers. Tesha was hardly able to wave the staff and defeat the Tsol'teth, same with Jarrod during the second Black Wave. Why should we have assumed that -this- time if we won the staff, it would be the singular key to winning against the Tsol'teth, when it was virtually irrelevant in the past?

I don't think the staff was ever a great thing to use as a win condition, especially with how many of us were stuck fighting tide and leading resistances instead of prepping for the games, but I think that it could have been a much better ending if we'd at least known what we were fighting over. Instead, 2/3 of the coalition outright banned participating in large part because we just didn't know it would have such a big effect.

Call us all dumb if you like, but I'll maintain that it would have been easy to give some clue that this time, the staff would matter more, and that it would have been a way more fun conclusion if everyone knew there was such a big reason to fight over it.

To follow up on this, the Tsol'teth said:

"This ancient relic will be the key that secures our continued growth for the generations to come. By the will of the Genesis, twice each century, we of Anzari-tarin shall test the best Tezlari-tarin has to offer. Participation requires assent in advancing the future of the Tsol'teth race: a minor sampling, undertaken by all who dare to try and claim possession of Nicator's staff."

It was very hard for me to find a way to read this other than "participating in the games is itself aiding the Tsol'teth".  My understanding was that the manner in which the staff will secure their growth was by leveraging it as bait to get people to submit to sampling.

I'm sure there's a lot of IC information scattered around that I'm not privy to that would have hinted that having a Coalition member win the staff was the key, but it feels like it wouldn't have taken much to have a Coalition-aligned denizen make a public or clan post saying, "We need to win the staff, even if it means being sampled".

It is worth noting that it was made very clear there was no sampling whatsoever unless you did sojourn. I got 0 in sojourn, so may just as well have not done it, and won staff. Thus, someone could clearly win it without being sampled, to be fair.

Telendrieth

Conquering a city and genociding its citizenry and then suddenly expecting that playerbase to be fine with honkey dorey teth staff games is also a bit of a stretch, to be fair.

Astarod

Jeez, all we’re saying is it takes 10-20 minutes to occupy a denizen and give us directions and most of us got none of that. To throw around your bricked sojourn score is irrelevant because that’s after the fact. So it wasn’t ‘clearly’ irrelevant at the time. Yeesh. 

Sophi

It was definitely announced at some point that the only event that required sampling was sojourn

If your own shortsightedness didn't allow you to sacrifice a petty stance to win back the most powerful weapon in the game to have a chance at beating the bad guys, that's on you. 

Astarod

Sophi said:

It was definitely announced at some point that the only event that required sampling was sojourn

Sojourn has points for the staff. Therefore it’s a big deal to certain people. IMO the event and nicator games might have been better separated.

Telendrieth

Sophi said:

It was definitely announced at some point that the only event that required sampling was sojourn

If your own shortsightedness didn't allow you to sacrifice a petty stance to win back the most powerful weapon in the game to have a chance at beating the bad guys, that's on you. 

A petty stance? Cute. 

Farrah

I wouldn't say it's petty but I'm not sure who your post was addressed to re: expecting the citizenry to be fine with genocide. What you are fine with is not really relevant. You absolutely had the right to not participate, as Mak said admin were fine with all along.

But IC your character was presented with a choice between doing what he/she was fine with or doing what was necessary to achieve victory. Since some factions are differentiated based on how they answer that, it can create interesting storylines. But obviously if you choose your own emotions and ethics over the best chances of success, you should expect that to impact your chances of success. You get to claim a moral victory at the price (somewhat) of an actual one.

I don't think that's unfair because that's the entire idea behind the difficult choice.

@Astarod Saying sojourn not mattering is irrelevant because it wasn't known demonstrates a poor attitude of not trying unless victory is certain. I was convinced I was not going to get staff at many points (can ask my friends) but I was determined to do everything I could regardless. There was nothing stopping someone from trying to win staff without sampling. It was certainly a viable possibility as much as me continuing to try after I knew I got 0 on Sojourn a week before the whole competition was done. I didn't know if I still had a chance at all but tried anyway.

Astarod

Farrah said:

@Astarod Saying sojourn not mattering is irrelevant because it wasn't known demonstrates a poor attitude of not trying unless victory is certain. I was convinced I was not going to get staff at many points (can ask my friends) but I was determined to do everything I could regardless. There was nothing stopping someone from trying to win staff without sampling. It was certainly a viable possibility as much as me continuing to try after I knew I got 0 on Sojourn a week before the whole competition was done. I didn't know if I still had a chance at all but tried anyway.

Alright, I think you’re not reading as closely as you should be. Maybe you should take a break? You got staff, your team won, you guard bashed last night! Yet, here you are, arguing semantics. 

My point is, you can’t say that Sojourn is irrelevant (which you did), because while it was in this case, in another case it could have made or broken an individuals staff chances. Regardless, we did try to win staff without sampling (and some with)- we failed, huzzah. There’ll always be another time. 

Also, @Sophi, try not to belittle others for having more interest in role play than sitting at Rally point for hours on end and full botting in combat  :P

Mindshell

The most important question has been overlooked. When will you unlock sojourn so we can play (and fail at it) to our hearts content?

It's certainly been an experience and I've watched many people change and grow over the course of events. Thank you everyone, admin and players alike.

Davok

While 'fighting to win back the staff' is certainly the obvious solution, I don't think I could have been alone in thinking that there was no guarantee we could have obtained it at all while fighting for tsol'teth amusement. Usually the villains don't just hand you the key to their destruction.

I expected it to be a ruse, or for us to receive a corrupted or broken staff. I don't know where I was supposed to know that the tsol'teth 'always keep their bargains to the letter'. Something those they allied with may have been more keyed into maybe, unless there was big lore hints I didn't know (which is totally possible).

Archaeon

wowow this thread has gone to shit.  

Atalkez

Astarod you’re coming across as unbelievably salty right now, should take a step back yourself my guy. 

Jinos

I'm confused. 

Why was going for the staff the obvious choice? Even at a cost. The Tsol'teth weren't obligated to host any games. They could have done a myriad of other things to it. Hid it. Sealed it away etc. Apart from the odd nudging to participate by a few city denizens I don't think people took the Tsol'teth games seriously in their merit. Why put your full efforts into a farce? That was the mentality people had. And honestly why wouldn't the Tsol'teth have an ulterior motive for hosting the championship games? 

I think most of us expected the Tsol'teth to do something with the staff at the closing ceremony, or the champion who was presented it. But it was just handed off as normal. Granted the other Gods were in attendance, but I'm not sure what could have stopped them from just withholding the staff that was freely handed over, or tampering with someone as Tlalaiad did with Tharos....

I know being given the staff in the first place threw a wrench into the gears, and it seems like a good chunk of the playerbase just wasn't on the same page with what was presented as a result.

The Tsol'teth narrative isn't over yet, and I'm intrigued to see what happens next. 

Astarod

Atalkez said:

Astarod you’re coming across as unbelievably salty right now, should take a step back yourself my guy. 

Huh? For reals, it doesn’t matter  

Yeesh, you guys are taking this so seriously. 

Anyways, this is kinda just dumb now. I hope you all enjoy your Father’s Day. 

Astarod

Mindshell said:

The most important question has been overlooked. When will you unlock sojourn so we can play (and fail at it) to our hearts content?

It's certainly been an experience and I've watched many people change and grow over the course of events. Thank you everyone, admin and players alike.

Could we also see about getting Sojourn tables upside so people who can’t bash through the Tide Guardians of whatsthatplacecalled don’t kill them?

Jiraishin

You know what concerns me? I once found a chipped shard left in a Balan'maal room with multiple tsol'teth in it.

WHAT WAS THAT PERSON BASHING.