Third Black Wave: Electric Boogaloo

Penwize

Makarios said:

4. There is a fundamental weakness with the Tsol'teth's most infuriating power. This is very publicly stated in game, and this was something I personally expected to be exploited ruthlessly.

Which one is this exactly?

Their abuse of double-tap instant dictate from 100%? You said that wouldn't happen more but then it kept happening.  Repeatedly.  Bain'maal used it on me while I was down there, so I was given absolutely no reason to believe he was going to be beatable story-wise.

Their abuse of instant god-teleport?  Canon weakness is for fulcrum to reset at dawn, but we had fights happen across dawn that saw them still god-teleport away (without using the fulcrum word, just the "leaves to the ether" god-teleport line).

Sorry, I have to call shenanigans on this one.

If you seriously expected the playerbase to think that bringing a fight to the Tsol'teth (especially one as canonically crazy strong as Bain'maal) was the answer, maybe the slightest indication that it was possible would have been in order.  Instead, every time the playerbase found a way to fight the Tsol'teth at all, it was SUPER CONVENIENTLY fixed the next time.  Either via configs for timed instant kill highlights so the admins could god-teleport out of harm's way, or via them just leaning harder on their insta-kill zap buttons.  It gave us the impression that we were just being railroaded to lose, and anything we did to find a way around it was circumvented via deus ex machina.  And it was.

Keorin

(Obligatory caveat: I'm writing this while a bit emotional, and none of this is meant to undermine the very hard work of our staff, or the enjoyment of the people who had fun during this event. This post doesn't necessarily represent my views when I'm trying to be reasonable or fair about things)

If you'll forgive me a moment's bitterness: This was essentially the most disappointing ending that I could have imagined for this event.

I spent weeks crossing my fingers, hoping that the work put in by people clearing tide, that the IC losses, that everything else would lead to -something-. Maybe not a win, maybe not a definite ending, but that this story still had places to go, and that everyone who felt largely tossed aside by the overall arc of things would feel some sort of narrative payoff. We spent hours and hours bashing tide,

But nope. The gods, who had refused to step in through all of this, just decided to snap their fingers and be done with it all. The first two black waves took all of the overland coming together to fight it back, while the gods sat it back. For the third, a stalemate ended by divine decree. I'm not sure I can think of a more boring conclusion, that would more undermine what people tried to do to make something out of this event.

Already, people are feeling like there were effectively no choices. People have already decided that the events that happened during the wave couldn't have been changed, and so there's no reason to seriously take them into consideration moving forward. That may not be accurate, but this ending will only reinforce those feelings. The status quo is maintained, the work done for other endings is forgotten, and, paradoxically, the cities that chose -not- to keep fighting the tide, not to push back against things, not to seek new story paths, are the ones who come away with the only narrative rewards.

For weeks I crossed my fingers that the ending would justify things, and instead, it went out with a whimper in the night.

Makarios

Penwize said:

Makarios said:

4. There is a fundamental weakness with the Tsol'teth's most infuriating power. This is very publicly stated in game, and this was something I personally expected to be exploited ruthlessly.

Which one is this exactly?

Their abuse of double-tap instant dictate from 100%? You said that wouldn't happen more but then it kept happening.  Repeatedly.  Bain'maal used it on me while I was down there, so I was given absolutely no reason to believe he was going to be beatable story-wise.

Their abuse of instant god-teleport?  Canon weakness is for fulcrum to reset at dawn, but we had fights happen across dawn that saw them still god-teleport away (without using the fulcrum word, just the "leaves to the ether" god-teleport line).

Sorry, I have to call shenanigans on this one.

If you seriously expected the playerbase to think that bringing a fight to the Tsol'teth (especially one as canonically crazy strong as Bain'maal) was the answer, maybe the slightest indication that it was possible would have been in order.  Instead, every time the playerbase found a way to fight the Tsol'teth at all, it was SUPER CONVENIENTLY fixed the next time.  Either via configs for timed instant kill highlights so the admins could god-teleport out of harm's way, or via them just leaning harder on their insta-kill zap buttons.  It gave us the impression that we were just being railroaded to lose, and anything we did to find a way around it was circumvented via deus ex machina.  And it was.

I'll try and break down your post.

If I say something shouldn't happen anymore and it keeps happening, you should message me.

If someone was fulcrumming across dawn, that should have been bugged. I can verify that fulcrum definitely was clearing at dawn for Tsol'teth, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't have in specific cases. It was not bugged however.

As for config lethals: most of our admin do not play IRE games anymore, or have not played for a very long time. Actually getting to play again in a limited capacity was good in a lot of respects because it allowed them to say "ok, this is annoying, I need to make a bunch of triggers". Did it help them survive more? Absolutely. Would us copy pasting them the comprehensive trigger lines have been less so? Of course not. Was it a positive feature for the game? I don't think anyone could argue otherwise. Did Tsol'teth stop dying after the addition? Categorically no. The most important Tsol'teth death of the event (Hailqas'an's unravel) happened some time after this went in.

Frankly, the idea that you were set up to lose the event is simply incorrect. Quite the opposite: we were so sure the coalition were going to win we made all future plans after the staff ceremony based around this. Jokes on us, I suppose!

Lenn

I like LETHALS except that the one lethal I wanted to illusion isn't illusionable anymore (CHRONO DOOM BOOST).

Tiax

Was there consideration towards making Keorin's games more official by including them in the UPCOMING command, or through announce or events posts?

Did the Tsol'teth also award the credit prizes IC, or were those administrative?  It felt very difficult to distinguish what parts of the event were Tsol'teth-run and what parts were administrative.

Adrik

Makarios said:

Adrik said:

So! Questions:

Aside from the fairly obvious downsides from the tide spreading, was there ever a win condition (or gear shift) if the Tide engulfed a certain percentage of Sapience?

What would've happened had tide got far into a city to actually erect a Meld Shrine?

What was the process for choosing who's shadows eradicated barriers?

With deus shards not playing a critical role this time around for (obvious) reasons... Will some of the abilities that were gained through them be attainable through the current Avatar status that orders have? (Deuc's awesome radiance, or Babel Pit, for instance)

Gear shift, yes.

Very bad things. Conquest would've been very close after this happening and it would have been much harder to defend than the already difficult standard kind.

I'm unsure on this one. I recall the discussion for Cyrene but obviously missed the Ashtan/Mhaldor ones, so I'll defer that to someone else.

No plans for the avatar powers to return. They were intentionally ridiculously op and will probably remain just as a part of that event - never say never though!

#3.  I was chosen for Cyrene, I think. What was the thought process for that one?

Makarios

Tiax said:

Was there consideration towards making Keorin's games more official by including them in the UPCOMING command, or through announce or events posts?

Did the Tsol'teth also award the credit prizes IC, or were those administrative?  It felt very difficult to distinguish what parts of the event were Tsol'teth-run and what parts were administrative.

Regarding Keorin's games, this is mostly a by request thing and we'll say how viable something is. We were happy to give these some support (the foozle for example).

Credit prizes are just a command for us, so noone technically awards these. It definitely is a bit of a grey area.

Tiax

Makarios said:

Credit prizes are just a command for us, so noone technically awards these. It definitely is a bit of a grey area.

I guess what I found difficult to navigate while trying to interact with the games was what was a Tsol'teth-organized event, and what was an administrative/garden organized event.  Were, for example, the heralds announcing games working for the Tsol'teth?  Were the NPCs running the archery or ship events working for the Tsol'teth?  Public post 20404 made it sound like Tsol'teth were running the show, but for all the other events, things were done via announce posts from producers.  It was difficult to tell if I was protesting against an enemy or needlessly harassing an unaligned NPC.

Makarios

Tiax said:

Makarios said:

Credit prizes are just a command for us, so noone technically awards these. It definitely is a bit of a grey area.

I guess what I found difficult to navigate while trying to interact with the games was what was a Tsol'teth-organized event, and what was an administrative/garden organized event.  Were, for example, the heralds announcing games working for the Tsol'teth?  Were the NPCs running the archery or ship events working for the Tsol'teth?  Public post 20404 made it sound like Tsol'teth were running the show, but for all the other events, things were done via announce posts from producers.  It was difficult to tell if I was protesting against an enemy or needlessly harassing an unaligned NPC.

Tharos was litany'd at the start of the games by Tlalaiad. In hindsight we probably should've done an events for that since some people probably missed it.

Asmodron

Tiax said:

Was there consideration towards making Keorin's games more official by including them in the UPCOMING command, or through announce or events posts?

Keorin's event was a player-based inspiration anyway. Adding it to Announce would be unusual. I have however seen player inspired events go to the Events news sometimes.

As for Upcoming, all city leaders can add personalized Upcoming events for all citizens to see. Coalition cities could definitely have done so, if they wished.

Atalkez

I personally love that Farrah won both games. No “not my champion” posters guys, sry.

Tesha

My question got skipped!

When do we get to meet Tsol'tesha and Tsol'talkez! Or does their mystery science thing just go straight to the meld? Maybe that's a lore question, sorry!

Tiax

Atalkez said:

I personally love that Farrah won both games. No “not my champion” posters guys, sry.

Participation in the Tsol'teth games disqualifies one from being a true champion! 

Penwize

Makarios said:

If I say something shouldn't happen anymore and it keeps happening, you should message me.

I mentioned it very loudly on several occasions on a certain clan (you know which one).  In your defense, the most egregious cases of it happening were while you were in the hospital so I don't fault you for those ones at all, but I straight up copy/pasted your statement to that clan and was summarily disregarded as it continued unabated.  The idea that I should have messaged you about it instead feels ... I dunno, kinda wrong? Like I should have been filing an issue against the volunteers?  Doesn't really seem right.

Honestly, that ability should have just been disabled or given a cooldown if you didn't want the volunteers to abuse it.

Makarios said:

If someone was fulcrumming across dawn, that should have been bugged. I can verify that fulcrum definitely was clearing at dawn for Tsol'teth, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't have in specific cases. It was not bugged however.

This was part of the conversation we had about fulcrum and them using god-teleport instead of fulcrum (ie, the "leaves to the ether" bit, not the typical fulcrum message.)  If you had intended for fulcrum across dawn to be properly disabled, then you should not have left their god teleport capability in, because they were using that instead.  I said this to you.  I copy/pasted you logs of it happening.  You disregarded it, though.  I'm not about to file a bug for god teleport after you tell me it's working as intended and really just a flavour difference. 

Config lethals was a good addition for the game, I don't contend that at all.  I just point it out as one of many factors the playerbase used to establish that the Tsol'teth were deliberately made to be the winners in this event, and that we were just being railroaded to arbitrarily lose.  Which we did.

Ictinus

Tesha said:

My question got skipped!

When do we get to meet Tsol'tesha and Tsol'talkez! Or does their mystery science thing just go straight to the meld? Maybe that's a lore question, sorry!

 This is a definite "Find out in game". In some years, when you hear excited shrieking of "YOU GUYS" coming from the Underrealm, well perhaps then you'll have an answer. 

Disclaimer: The above is intended to be humour and not reflective of actual future plans.

Asmodron

So what i'm understanding from all this is.....that the Tsol'teth need to get shrubbed for abusing a bug.

Keorin

I also feel like it's worth pointing out, I think a big disadvantage that the coalition had to pull off a win was that we were -tired-.

Like, Hashan had to fend off some raids, but that was pretty much it, and Targossas not even that. The rest of us had a -lot- of our citizens tied up trying to push back tide, organise unwindings, try and push plot angles to get access to Cyrene again, ect. Like, just speaking personally, I was really hoping we'd get an expedition to go fight Bain'maal together, but most of my energy was being put towards trying to make resistance things happen, and so it was hard to put something like that together.

Not being in your city and having to work around it is tiring. Having to fight back the tide constantly is tiring. That's not a bad thing, but it doesn't put us in a great spot to go out work super hard to find the few proscribed ways of pulling off a 'win'. And when you combine that with all of our massive amounts of outreach to denizens, the letters sent, the attempts at talking, ect, that were going absolutely nowhere, while we watched Hashan and Targ get given new skills and get friendly chatter with admin controlled Tsol'teth while we couldn't get a peep out of a single denizen? Well, at some point, it's hard not to just accept that you just aren't supposed to have much of an effect on things. Getting complete silence doesn't exactly make it seem like we're just not finding the one right answer, after all, it makes it look like there are -no- right answers.

Makarios

Penwize said:

Makarios said:

If I say something shouldn't happen anymore and it keeps happening, you should message me.

I mentioned it very loudly on several occasions on a certain clan (you know which one).  In your defense, the most egregious cases of it happening were while you were in the hospital so I don't fault you for those ones at all, but I straight up copy/pasted your statement to that clan and was summarily disregarded as it continued unabated.  The idea that I should have messaged you about it instead feels ... I dunno, kinda wrong? Like I should have been filing an issue against the volunteers?  Doesn't really seem right.

Honestly, that ability should have just been disabled or given a cooldown if you didn't want the volunteers to abuse it.

Makarios said:

If someone was fulcrumming across dawn, that should have been bugged. I can verify that fulcrum definitely was clearing at dawn for Tsol'teth, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't have in specific cases. It was not bugged however.

This was part of the conversation we had about fulcrum and them using god-teleport instead of fulcrum (ie, the "leaves to the ether" bit, not the typical fulcrum message.)  If you had intended for fulcrum across dawn to be properly disabled, then you should not have left their god teleport capability in, because they were using that instead.  I said this to you.  I copy/pasted you logs of it happening.  You disregarded it, though.  I'm not about to file a bug for god teleport after you tell me it's working as intended and really just a flavour difference. 

Config lethals was a good addition for the game, I don't contend that at all.  I just point it out as one of many factors the playerbase used to establish that the Tsol'teth were deliberately made to be the winners in this event, and that we were just being railroaded to arbitrarily lose.  Which we did.

I'll reiterate then as a matter of public record: if I say something shouldn't happen and it happens, you should message me. Clans are good if I'm around and paying attention to the clan, but not a reliable avenue of communication.

I don't recall disregarding anything you said in that conversation, but I feel we're probably going to simply have to agree to disagree.

Your final point however: you were not set up to lose to the Tsol'teth. If a coalition member had won the staff (as seemed exceedingly likely going into the final event), the coalition would have won. You can certainly choose not to believe that, but at that point we are at an impasse.

Atalkez

I said very early into the event we needed to focus on UR. Even more so after Penwize unlocked the fourth gate or whatever was said when shadow dragon was killed.

Targ allies not long afterwards, so my opportunity to do it faded. I distinctly recall discussing if we should help get an expedition to UR.

Penwize

Atalkez said:

I said very early into the event we needed to focus on UR. Even more so after Penwize unlocked the fourth gate or whatever was said when shadow dragon was killed.

Targ allies not long afterwards, so my opportunity to do it faded. I distinctly recall discussing if we should help get an expedition to UR.

Yeah, we were gearing up to do one very shortly before Targ got converted.  It was the original reason I contacted Hycanthus, so that when we got down there we actually had something to DO.  Having spent a lot of time down there exploring, it was a complete dead end after the shadow dragon.  We're not going to mass a giant offensive against a dead end without some reason to do so, which Hycanthus was supposed to build for us.

That got redirected, and so I (and everyone else involved) assumed that the UW assault was a non-starter that would just result in us all being trapped in the inescapable area, standing around with nothing to do looking at a dead shadow dragon and a Bain'maal that fulcrummed god-teleported away.

That, plus we lost the vast majority of our stronger people when Targossas left the Coalition.  Honestly, that single change ruined the event's direction.  It was a massive derail from where it was headed, and I feel like the event writers had no way of working with the Coalition after that.  We were never thrown another bone after that, and just got to watch Targ/Hashan get cool interactions while we got a nice heaping pile of nothing.

It was great.

Cyr

Makarios said:

Penwize said:

Makarios said:

4. There is a fundamental weakness with the Tsol'teth's most infuriating power. This is very publicly stated in game, and this was something I personally expected to be exploited ruthlessly.

Which one is this exactly?

Their abuse of double-tap instant dictate from 100%? You said that wouldn't happen more but then it kept happening.  Repeatedly.  Bain'maal used it on me while I was down there, so I was given absolutely no reason to believe he was going to be beatable story-wise.

Their abuse of instant god-teleport?  Canon weakness is for fulcrum to reset at dawn, but we had fights happen across dawn that saw them still god-teleport away (without using the fulcrum word, just the "leaves to the ether" god-teleport line).

Sorry, I have to call shenanigans on this one.

If you seriously expected the playerbase to think that bringing a fight to the Tsol'teth (especially one as canonically crazy strong as Bain'maal) was the answer, maybe the slightest indication that it was possible would have been in order.  Instead, every time the playerbase found a way to fight the Tsol'teth at all, it was SUPER CONVENIENTLY fixed the next time.  Either via configs for timed instant kill highlights so the admins could god-teleport out of harm's way, or via them just leaning harder on their insta-kill zap buttons.  It gave us the impression that we were just being railroaded to lose, and anything we did to find a way around it was circumvented via deus ex machina.  And it was.

I'll try and break down your post.

If I say something shouldn't happen anymore and it keeps happening, you should message me.

If someone was fulcrumming across dawn, that should have been bugged. I can verify that fulcrum definitely was clearing at dawn for Tsol'teth, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't have in specific cases. It was not bugged however.

As for config lethals: most of our admin do not play IRE games anymore, or have not played for a very long time. Actually getting to play again in a limited capacity was good in a lot of respects because it allowed them to say "ok, this is annoying, I need to make a bunch of triggers". Did it help them survive more? Absolutely. Would us copy pasting them the comprehensive trigger lines have been less so? Of course not. Was it a positive feature for the game? I don't think anyone could argue otherwise. Did Tsol'teth stop dying after the addition? Categorically no. The most important Tsol'teth death of the event (Hailqas'an's unravel) happened some time after this went in.

Frankly, the idea that you were set up to lose the event is simply incorrect. Quite the opposite: we were so sure the coalition were going to win we made all future plans after the staff ceremony based around this. Jokes on us, I suppose!

Not going to quote from everything I want to respond to but in essence, a huge amount of this feels like so much horse manure from my side for a number of reasons. Penwize has laid out a number of them, but I'll add that there were several extra things we were promised, or told that would be looked into, that never materialized. Not only did they not materialize, the denizens that were being puppetted to have those conversations with those of us in Ashtan simply stopped responding. I don't know the why, but the timing was such that it was right around when Targossas allied with the Tsol'teth, and at the very least, that seems suspect from my side. This wasn't some panic over you going AWOL, because those responses stopped coming days before your health stuff happened. I'm not sure how we're supposed to know some of these things should be bugs or messaged to you, especially when, as Penwize says, we were told they were working as intended. As another note, I wasn't here for the tide removal, but I recall it being stated that the Divine wouldn't involve themselves in what was essentially a mortal affair until Tlalaiad stepped in. So I'm not sure how the divine shouting match into tide removal fits in to all of that (if the Tsol'teth hosting the games was Tlalaiad stepping in, why didn't our divine step in sooner?). I know that tide removal chasing was a lost cause from a mortal perspective because not once did I ever get a response looking into it. From my (our?) perspective it's incredibly hard to buy into the idea that these events weren't forced in a major way, especially when it was exceedingly obvious that any time we got a kill on a Tsol'teth, it was because the Volunteer playing that Tsol'teth was feeling sporting. Several of them literally never stayed in room for more than .75 seconds, which was still enough for three attacks from them. Multiple times during larger conflicts in Hashan I watched as a Tsol'teth walked into room and simply held down Tooros until half the room was dead, and then instantly leave via the 'left to the ether' message just as headway was being made on them. 

As far as the games go, I don't have too much I want to say, but I do note that it was mentioned by admin that the bug in the bashing event only changed the score for one of the people in the top 10 of the event. This was a huge reason for me not using the last of my time as I felt it was exceedingly unlikely that I would be able to make top ten with my remaining time, as a result, I went to bed. When I woke up at least two other people's scores had been adjusted to a point that I would have actually had a shot at top ten obviously it wouldn't have mattered for staff, but it did cost me credits and potential final placement. (as a side note, I bugged this and mentioned it directly to you the day of the second bashing window, and then heard nothing until 7 hours into the third bashing window...) 

Keorin

Atalkez said:

I said very early into the event we needed to focus on UR. Even more so after Penwize unlocked the fourth gate or whatever was said when shadow dragon was killed.

Targ allies not long afterwards, so my opportunity to do it faded. I distinctly recall discussing if we should help get an expedition to UR.

This was the problem, really. We'd planned an expedition for two days later...and then targ left the coalition the day before. Targ was really the other big pillar of serious fighters/organizers. Mhaldor was working on its own, and I don't know that Eleusis/Cyrene have -anyone- familiar with the Underrealm enough to lead that. Targ leaving also meant that we had way fewer people helping with the tide, while it was only speeding up, so more people than ever were tied up or just too tired to push for an underworld siege against the strongest Tsol'teth.

Frankly, if we'd even just had a way to slow down the tide, so that we could have focused on other things, I think it would have made a -huge- difference. People aren't going to be excited for big new pushes or directions if they're mentally exhausted because the tide keeps speeding up right as we lose more allies.

Makarios said:

Your final point however: you were not set up to lose to the Tsol'teth. If a coalition member had won the staff (as seemed exceedingly likely going into the final event), the coalition would have won.

Just a small quibble with this: I feel like the results of the Championship were pretty predictable, frankly. Farrah was consistently great across most every event, and she'd near aced the history quiz I'd done the day before, plus she seemed to have a lot more time to study for it than Dunn did (a lot of Ashtan's best competitors were a little scarce during everything, unfortunately). It may have been a coalition against Targossas, but most events rely on the individual more than the people backing them, and Farrah is just amazing.

Ayani

I just want to say, I'm kind of glad to have things settle some. People did an amazing job working the tide and definitely deserve a commendation or something. I think I helped for the first week and then decided that I had enough. 30 days later, there were still people keeping it controlled. Sure, I'm disappointed in the outcome. After all, I wanted to kick some Teth butt. But hey, failure is often more interesting and motivating than success. Next time!

A huge thank you to everyone involved. @Keorin and the many people involved in crafting the Seleucarian games even if the scheduled times didn't work out for me. Admin and volunteers, I definitely have respect for the crazy amount of hours and dedication you put into making this thing what it was. I imagine trying your job to be a bit like herding cats. Not a job I'd be prepared for anytime soon! Even so, it was amazing to be a part of. Finally, to all the new people I've run into and got the chance to interact with... including those that taught me how Nishnatoba and Crusades work, you're amazing. Looking back now, I want to kick myself for not trying more things or speaking up when I probably should have. 

My biggest question is less of a question and more of a request. Is there any chance that even if Sojourns don't become a part of Achaea, can we please get a way for those who sat out for RP reasons a chance to try one? Pretty please?

Achilles

Atalkez said:

I personally love that Farrah won both games. No “not my champion” posters guys, sry.

Jiraishin

Tsol'teth plotlines are still ongoing even with the retreat of the Tide, though, right?

Achilles

Keorin said:

Makarios said:

Your final point however: you were not set up to lose to the Tsol'teth. If a coalition member had won the staff (as seemed exceedingly likely going into the final event), the coalition would have won.

Just a small quibble with this: I feel like the results of the Championship were pretty predictable, frankly. Farrah was consistently great across most every event, and she'd near aced the history quiz I'd done the day before, plus she seemed to have a lot more time to study for it than Dunn did (a lot of Ashtan's best competitors were a little scarce during everything, unfortunately). It may have been a coalition against Targossas, but most events rely on the individual more than the people backing them, and Farrah is just amazing.

No way, the odds were stacked against Farrah.  After a relatively disappointing 5th for her in Twins, we knew the xp event would be rough and that was before the outer island shenanigans.  Farrah went into the quiz needing to win it, she already did the sojourn beforehand and failed all 3 so she went in knowing she had to finish 3rd or better and for Dunn and others to not do well (and the sojourn was very RNG by most accounts).  

She had help of course, we had 2 active staff winners for example helping her study but Farrah was certainly a beast and ultimately did almost all the work herself save from us protecting her during the xp event as much as we could (we got wiped a few times fighting 3 factions.

Dunn on the other hand got carried for the xp event, Irimon saved them from an early knockout with a 1v2 comeback and those 2 events are the most impacted by your faction.  

Lenn

Keorin is saying Farrah was awesome, not that she got carried.

Keorin

Atalkez said:

I personally love that Farrah won both games. No “not my champion” posters guys, sry.

Farrah can be a double champion once the Seleucarian Games are over and done!

Like, she's definitely going to be, but things aren't over yet, especially with the retreat of the tide forcing some reconsidering and rescheduling on my part.

Achilles

Lenn said:

Keorin is saying Farrah was awesome, not that she got carried.

She was awesome, I'm saying what she did was anything but predictable and frankly shocking.

Atalkez

I am definitely glad our disappointing finish in Twins didn’t ruin her chances for Staff. We went in fully expecting to be pushing for a win, so to get knocked out that early was definitely a blow.

I think it speaks to the dedication of everyone, for sure Farrah, to keep pushing and not get discouraged. Especially after the Sojourn mishap, it could have been very easy to say well that’s it for us. 

Everyone rallied around her, and we didn’t have other people trying to win it themselves thwarting her events.