Third Black Wave: Electric Boogaloo

Archaeon

probably just ratting bro

Jiraishin

They have rats down there? Fascinating. 

Astarod

Jiraishin said:

You know what concerns me? I once found a chipped shard left in a Balan'maal room with multiple tsol'teth in it.

WHAT WAS THAT PERSON BASHING.

The children, obviously. I’m going to go down and drop like 2-3 shards in every room

Taryius

If you were around for the year 750 games, Tlalaiad was the one that called the staff from the earth and gave it to Tesha. It was actually the first time we got to see Him favor someone.

The precedent of the Tsol'teth (or at least their God which they follow without question) not wanting to betray every other Divine and keep the staff was there.

Davok

I wasn't around, but that makes sense.

Tiax

Shirszae said:

@Tiax The thing is, going for the staff should have been the obvious choice  for obvious reasons. People were making a big tiff of being sampled, but that was such a minor thing to be concerned about in the face of the possibility of getting what is effectively the most powerful artifact known to mortals back in coalition hands. The real problem is that people were set on what they wanted to do and not do and unwilling to consider anything else.

And that is fine, if that is how you all wanted to play it, but the evidence of the scrupulousness of the Tsol'teth with their word was there, and I know some people keep pointing at it, and they were all mostly ignored, so yeah. 

Personally, I found the event to be overall pretty fun, and I am intrigued to know where things will go from here, but I have to admit to some disappointment with how the 'chapter' lets say, ended. I am aware this is but a beginning, but nonetheless, I would have liked something a little more dynamic than some gods shouting.

I guess my complaint is that it wasn't clear at least to me that I was making that choice.  I was under the impression that the Tsolteth path to victory was getting people to submit to sampling, not getting an ally to win the staff.  Maybe it should have been obvious and maybe I'm just dumb, but it would have been nice to at least know what the correct goal was.  I don't think my interpretation of the Tsolteth public post is totally out of left field - if their best plan for how to use the staff is to entice people to submit to sampling, it seems like the natural counter position is to refuse to be enticed.  

I will ill note that I found the fact that only the sojourn required sampling very confusing.  Why wouldn't they demand sampling for every event of it is so important?  Maybe that should have been a clue that sampling was actually a red herring?  But why include such a red herring at all?  

I think if the games were framed as being a battle for the fate of the invasions, it would have drawn far better engagement from all sides.

Jinos

Taryius said:

If you were around for the year 750 games, Tlalaiad was the one that called the staff from the earth and gave it to Tesha. It was actually the first time we got to see Him favor someone.

The precedent of the Tsol'teth (or at least their God which they follow without question) not wanting to betray every other Divine and keep the staff was there.

I'd agree, but he is a new god, and has his own motives for things.

So, I don't really see a clear precedence. He's the enigmatic wild card in the pantheon lately. Adhering to what he sees fit to at the moment. Add Twilight into the mix and who knows what can happen behind the scenes anymore. Which is exciting albeit worrisome.

Keorin

('nother ranty post incoming, feel free to disregard a lot of what's in it as me being overly frustrated in the moment, doesn't reflect my full opinion on things, ect. Sometimes you just gotta vent the bad feelings a bit, and boy do I have some bad feelings right now, even if my overall views are a lot more mixed)

I feel like there's a lot of hindsight going on right now. I personally pushed for Cyrene to be allowed to compete, I have a lot of friends, in Cyrene and out, who thought that not being able to compete was dumb, that we were shooting ourselves in the foot, ect. But -no one- I talked to ever suspected that hey, the event was going to end immediately after the games, and getting the staff was the -only thing that mattered- for taking a win or it ending in further losses. If you guessed this, then good job for you, I guess, but I feel like a lot of people right now are just using hindsight to suggest that we should have known all along, when no one did. Is it really so unreasonable to wish that there was any indication that -this- time, the staff really would be super potent against the Tsol'teth, when it's done jack all up until now?

But more to the point, I just don't understand in what world tying the staff to victory/defeat made -any- sense at all, from a meta perspective. The championship games aren't just something you can magic up real contenders for. You need people who have skills in a bunch of different areas, you need them to be able to be online at the right times, and you need them to have been doing prepwork ahead of time. And -then-, you need them to be able to do better than Farrah, who was probably the single strongest staff contender that we've had in several cycles.

Like, the whole coalition -did- try to help Ashtani win, even where we couldn't take part ourselves. But to be frank, there just isn't a lot we were in a position to do. With Krypton gone, I'm probably the closest Cyrene's got for a staff contender, for instance, and I'm a middling fighter who isn't even dragon. I don't know who from Eleusis we think would have had a real shot at it either. Like, maybe if we'd had more people, there's some chance we could have hit her points in enough places, but "Beat Farrah at foozle" or "beat Farrah/Atalkez" at twins isn't exactly a trivial proposition here. Targossas has won the staff more than any other city since they existed, it is not because they're bad at this.

Let's not even mention the addition of Sojourn, which removed the tumblerace, one of the -only- events where people without serious combat skills can have some effect on getting the staff. And also heavily rewarded Hashani/Targossians who could casually go down to practice, over the rest of us who have to make a trip down through the underrealm to be able to take part in any way. Hashani/Targossians who, again, weren't burnt the hell out from tide hunting and post writing and everything else, while half my faction went in just wanting everything to be over already.

Honestly, I'm more frustrated with this having been what the event was tied to than anything else I've heard. I'm frustrated because it means the weeks of work done across our factions meant -nothing- to how things resolved, only this last event. I'm frustrated because I personally was in no place to compete, and had no ability to, -because- I had been so busy with the event thus far, both from my own bad ideas (running a set of games), and from things that were forced on me, like trying to lead a faction that was made cityless. I went into these world games tired and burnt out, and so did most everyone on my faction, because we, apparently foolishly, thought that -anything- we were doing up until that point mattered, that clearing the tide mattered, that trying to work out ways to defeat the Tsol'teth mattered, that engaging with the event in any way mattered. In reality, we should've dropped literally everything else from the start and started our quiz prep and foozle practice, because -that- is what mattered. The -true- secret to defeating the Tsol'teth was foozles all along.

I have been perfectly ready for every bit of work I'm doing to be meaningless towards the overall plot. I was kind of assuming that would be the case, actually, and I was just happy that some people might have had some fun with my efforts. But to hear that actually, every bit of work I've tried -prevented- me from having any effect on things, that every bit of work that I and others had done in the event so far was actively detrimental to our faction having any sort of win because it left us tired and busy and burnt out for the -one thing- that mattered in the end?

Apparently, if I wanted any sort of narrative win for my faction, the right answer would have been to do -none- of what I did. I never should have made the Cyrenian Resistance, I -definitely- shouldn't have made any sort of Seleucarian Games, I shouldn't have tried to roleplay around or engage with the loss of Cyrene and its people. All of that stuff was actively preventing me from prepping for the games, or even being allowed to compete. The way to have had an effect on the plot would have been to drop all of that and start prepping for the plot determining foozle.

If you ask me, it's worse than a railroad. In a railroaded event, what you do is meaningless, and so you're just roleplaying around a fixed set of events. In this case, roleplaying around those events is actively a -mistake-, that detracts from the IC goals that you're trying to pursue.

Lesson learned, I suppose.

Telendrieth

@Keorin

I'm still at work, but if this event had taught me anything, it is that sometimes the most salvageable stuff isnt from the "win conditions" and everyone barking with clear hindsight, hell, at times it isnt even from the garden at all. 

A lot of the good I'm pulling from this event came directly from player interaction. I've been burned out and pretty sick here recently, but what I was able to see of the games you hosted was absolutely fucking amazing. And years from now when I think back on this event and just feel aggravated annoyance, your games, digging graves, and generally coming together over loss is something I'll remember quite fondly. You helped make an event memorable for the right reasons, for that.. hell, I thank you. 

Ictinus

I wanted to chime in, in response to some of the assertions that have been made in this thread. In particular, the question of whether Cyrene was provided any direction or guidance on how they may best proceed, whether the Staff was clearly outlined as being of crucial importance to the resistance, and also the subject of processing being required in order to compete.

Thanks to the wizards in the Garden, I'm able to provide the following snippets from 4th June, where Neraeos made a distinct effort to cover some of these exact things. It is worth noting that at least two senators were present at the time.

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "The games do not interest Me, but there seems to be a flaw in the logic the proposed manner of resistance."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "How does holding your own games defy the Tsol'teth?"

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "Then you can merely allow the staff to go to their allies, and then back into their hands when the time comes to continue the cycle."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "Point out where they say submit to processing."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "Because it is hard, it should not be tried? I am pointing out that defeating the Tsol'teth, as far as these games go, would be winning the staff and never returning it to them."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "I am spelling it out for you now then, it [sampling] is only for Sojourn."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "I know the terms they have set, if they were to break them, I imagine Others including Myself would step in."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "If you don't wish to participate, then don't. This does nothing to remove the staff, which I will remind you is a powerful weapon, from those who would turn it against you."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "If the last bearer of the staff handed it to Tsol'teth, then surely you can hand it to another."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "Also I will remind you that the staff is the most effective weapon to use against the Tsol'teth."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "So it is mostly about the staff from My view."

Don't let this derail the flow of discussion in this thread, I'm offering it up simply to provide context and clarity on one of the most prolific comments we've seen both here and in other platforms.

Cooper

I am not sure you can get more of a hint that you need to try and win the staff...holy crap!

Shirszae

And instead Cyrene went and forbid anyone from even participating. 

Jinos

Surprised that wasn't posted to the Cyrene news for us that missed it.  

Farrah

Keorin said:

('nother ranty post incoming, feel free to disregard a lot of what's in it as me being overly frustrated in the moment, doesn't reflect my full opinion on things, ect. Sometimes you just gotta vent the bad feelings a bit, and boy do I have some bad feelings right now, even if my overall views are a lot more mixed)

I feel like there's a lot of hindsight going on right now. I personally pushed for Cyrene to be allowed to compete, I have a lot of friends, in Cyrene and out, who thought that not being able to compete was dumb, that we were shooting ourselves in the foot, ect. But -no one- I talked to ever suspected that hey, the event was going to end immediately after the games, and getting the staff was the -only thing that mattered- for taking a win or it ending in further losses. If you guessed this, then good job for you, I guess, but I feel like a lot of people right now are just using hindsight to suggest that we should have known all along, when no one did. Is it really so unreasonable to wish that there was any indication that -this- time, the staff really would be super potent against the Tsol'teth, when it's done jack all up until now?

But more to the point, I just don't understand in what world tying the staff to victory/defeat made -any- sense at all, from a meta perspective. The championship games aren't just something you can magic up real contenders for. You need people who have skills in a bunch of different areas, you need them to be able to be online at the right times, and you need them to have been doing prepwork ahead of time. And -then-, you need them to be able to do better than Farrah, who was probably the single strongest staff contender that we've had in several cycles.

Like, the whole coalition -did- try to help Ashtani win, even where we couldn't take part ourselves. But to be frank, there just isn't a lot we were in a position to do. With Krypton gone, I'm probably the closest Cyrene's got for a staff contender, for instance, and I'm a middling fighter who isn't even dragon. I don't know who from Eleusis we think would have had a real shot at it either. Like, maybe if we'd had more people, there's some chance we could have hit her points in enough places, but "Beat Farrah at foozle" or "beat Farrah/Atalkez" at twins isn't exactly a trivial proposition here. Targossas has won the staff more than any other city since they existed, it is not because they're bad at this.

Let's not even mention the addition of Sojourn, which removed the tumblerace, one of the -only- events where people without serious combat skills can have some effect on getting the staff. And also heavily rewarded Hashani/Targossians who could casually go down to practice, over the rest of us who have to make a trip down through the underrealm to be able to take part in any way. Hashani/Targossians who, again, weren't burnt the hell out from tide hunting and post writing and everything else, while half my faction went in just wanting everything to be over already.

Honestly, I'm more frustrated with this having been what the event was tied to than anything else I've heard. I'm frustrated because it means the weeks of work done across our factions meant -nothing- to how things resolved, only this last event. I'm frustrated because I personally was in no place to compete, and had no ability to, -because- I had been so busy with the event thus far, both from my own bad ideas (running a set of games), and from things that were forced on me, like trying to lead a faction that was made cityless. I went into these world games tired and burnt out, and so did most everyone on my faction, because we, apparently foolishly, thought that -anything- we were doing up until that point mattered, that clearing the tide mattered, that trying to work out ways to defeat the Tsol'teth mattered, that engaging with the event in any way mattered. In reality, we should've dropped literally everything else from the start and started our quiz prep and foozle practice, because -that- is what mattered. The -true- secret to defeating the Tsol'teth was foozles all along.

I have been perfectly ready for every bit of work I'm doing to be meaningless towards the overall plot. I was kind of assuming that would be the case, actually, and I was just happy that some people might have had some fun with my efforts. But to hear that actually, every bit of work I've tried -prevented- me from having any effect on things, that every bit of work that I and others had done in the event so far was actively detrimental to our faction having any sort of win because it left us tired and busy and burnt out for the -one thing- that mattered in the end?

Apparently, if I wanted any sort of narrative win for my faction, the right answer would have been to do -none- of what I did. I never should have made the Cyrenian Resistance, I -definitely- shouldn't have made any sort of Seleucarian Games, I shouldn't have tried to roleplay around or engage with the loss of Cyrene and its people. All of that stuff was actively preventing me from prepping for the games, or even being allowed to compete. The way to have had an effect on the plot would have been to drop all of that and start prepping for the plot determining foozle.

If you ask me, it's worse than a railroad. In a railroaded event, what you do is meaningless, and so you're just roleplaying around a fixed set of events. In this case, roleplaying around those events is actively a -mistake-, that detracts from the IC goals that you're trying to pursue.

Lesson learned, I suppose.

Mak and Ictinus's comments aside, I do think you're latching onto the admin defined "victory" too much now. You chose to take a different path, and it's not really inherently worse. You stuck to your ideals. The Tide is gone anyway. You don't even know exactly what you would've accomplished with the Staff. I think it's clear there was some indication that a greater victory against the Tsol'teth themselves would be achieved with the Staff (Icti kind of just proved that). But it doesn't really change the positive aspects of what you did. You get to say forevermore that you didn't give in to the Tsol'teth, which seemed to me to be what Cyrene wanted given what they were saying the whole time.

It just so happened that you could not do as much "damage" to them without sacrificing some of your desires. You can make your own victory. I think anyone who thought they could stubbornly follow their emotions rather than logic and still achieve the optimal result was ignoring the evidence though. It's a fine IC path to take, but there's also a reason two cities allied with the Tsol'teth in the first place.

You have to accept that some goals might be too tall of orders. The Tsol'teth don't truedie. They have a god. They have two cities allied with them. You should probably consider them more like a player city than a group of denizens meant to just be defeated. That is, you don't expect to just eradicate Mhaldor permanently. Have to consider them somewhat the same way.

They are now withdrawn, though. Cyrene has its sovereignty back. The Tide is gone. And Cyrene paved its own path. I don't think any of that really has to be taken as a "loss."

Synthus

Jinos said:

Surprised that wasn't posted to the Cyrene news for us that missed it.  

^^^This. I just scoured the news trying to find references to that chat. Couldn't find anything.

Edit: I am under the weather though, so I may have missed it. Still looking, but not finding anything either.

Additional Edit: In the sake of fairness, I was mistaken when the games began and held many misconceptions in regards to the role the Tsol'teth were playing in them. Sojourn was the only event requiring "sampling", true, but I learned that probably about four days after the Games started via CT. From the first post by the Tsol'teth, that wasn't really clear (hence why Nereaos had to clarify.) However, I will also say that I am -still- unclear of the difference between "sampling" and "processing", and that one of the concerns I had back when the game started was that the Tsol'teth would be "processing" anyone that fell during the games. This, again, was only corrected days after the game started by someone puppetting the Magistrate on CT, but up until that point, it seemed to be a very common misconception.

Aegoth

Sounds like you need to get rid of your Imperiate and his council of sycophants for hiding such valuable information

Asmodron

All I can feel is pity for Neraeos in that log. He was trying to make it as obvious as can be to what they needed to do to win. They still noped out...

Keorin

Ictinus said:

I wanted to chime in, in response to some of the assertions that have been made in this thread. In particular, the question of whether Cyrene was provided any direction or guidance on how they may best proceed, whether the Staff was clearly outlined as being of crucial importance to the resistance, and also the subject of processing being required in order to compete.

Thanks to the wizards in the Garden, I'm able to provide the following snippets from 4th June, where Neraeos made a distinct effort to cover some of these exact things. It is worth noting that at least two senators were present at the time.

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "The games do not interest Me, but there seems to be a flaw in the logic the proposed manner of resistance."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "How does holding your own games defy the Tsol'teth?"

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "Then you can merely allow the staff to go to their allies, and then back into their hands when the time comes to continue the cycle."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "Point out where they say submit to processing."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "Because it is hard, it should not be tried? I am pointing out that defeating the Tsol'teth, as far as these games go, would be winning the staff and never returning it to them."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "I am spelling it out for you now then, it [sampling] is only for Sojourn."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "I know the terms they have set, if they were to break them, I imagine Others including Myself would step in."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "If you don't wish to participate, then don't. This does nothing to remove the staff, which I will remind you is a powerful weapon, from those who would turn it against you."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "If the last bearer of the staff handed it to Tsol'teth, then surely you can hand it to another."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "Also I will remind you that the staff is the most effective weapon to use against the Tsol'teth."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "So it is mostly about the staff from My view."

Don't let this derail the flow of discussion in this thread, I'm offering it up simply to provide context and clarity on one of the most prolific comments we've seen both here and in other platforms.

That's sort of my point, though. When gods are framing the situation as "taking the staff would make sure they can't run games again" (which is how it was framed in a few other cases as well), then a lot of us are going to assume that -that- is what the implications of the staff are, not assume that taking the staff will be the sole determiner of whether the war we're in the middle of will end with a victory or a defeat. It's super easy to read what got said weeks ago now and say that it proved it all, but when we (or at least I) was under the assumption that there was a lot more to this event? It's also super easy to read that and not come away thinking that the staff will make all the difference in the event when it has done jack all in the hands of adventurers up to this point.

Like, I was glad that we were getting any kind of nudging to fight, but in retrospect, I find the way the situation was presented to us to have been more than a bit misleading. If we'd heard "I suspect the staff will be very consequential to the outcome of this war" instead of "take it and don't give it to them so that they can't run games again", I think things would have been a lot different. Believe me, I was looking for any damned excuse I could find to push going for the staff as being important, but I didn't for a moment suspect that it was going to be the one thing that decided if our months of work would end in success or failure, because that still strikes me as making no sense.

Like, let me be clear, I used what got said to try and push for being allowed to participate, and I spent hours arguing for it, but this is the Cyrenian senate we're talking about. When it's a lot of people who aren't very engaged with the event, and aren't going to take part in the games one way or another making the call, it's going to take a lot more then just suggestions that we could keep them from running another set of games like this in fifty years (especially because no one OOCly believes that's likely). I will one hundred percent take and run with anything an admin says if I think it will help us actually convince Cyrene's leadership to let us participate in more things, but the moment things are even slightly vague, members of the senate will straight up deny that we have any control over the situation. Verrucht spent hours arguing that despite what Neraeos had said, "sampling" might be different then "processing" and so it wasn't worth the risk of taking part, and that giving them legitimacy was a bigger risk then anything else.

This goes back to people being tired, too. In the end, the only way Cyrene was going to be allowed to participate is if I personally drummed up the support and the votes, and I was exhausted, busy, and much as I thought we should try and get the staff, I didn't understand that it would be -the- event that decided how everything else went. So in a lot of ways I blame myself for that, but it's part of why I'm a little frustrated that I decided to try and make other big things happen - because if I hadn't, I'd have had the energy to drum up votes and do more. Running a different set of games ended up being directly detrimental to actually taking part in the event, and that really sucks to hear after weeks of work.

When nothing we've done has made a lick of difference in the outcome of things for weeks, why were we going to decide that -this- was the one moment that mattered? How were we going to convince a group of players feeling like things were railroaded that we were at the climax of the event, the single moment that would determine everything else? Even our most engaged players who wanted the chance to do more with the games didn't suspect for a moment that the war was going to end within two hours of the end of the games, and so we weren't in a position to push that narrative either.

It would have been -trivial- for the admin to frame the games more clearly as a climactic battle for the fate of this event. It's a lot harder to do that as an exhausted player with a dozen other things you're trying to handle. And that's why a lot of people are frustrated, we were making a choice that we had no idea we were making, and we just wish we were given the information to make it more clearly.

Shirszae

I don't know how things could have been made any more clearer than Neraeos made them by that log.  Really can't believe that people insisted on banning everything in spite of it. That's the biggest wtf and proof that most of the senators in Cyrene shouldn't be there... 

Taryius

The war isn't over, and the "victory" the admin are framing (the retreat of the Tide) would've happened either way. 

Wars are almost never cut and dry winners and losers, especially when they havent ended yet. I say this in full support of the Seleucarian Games which were hugely fun, and I have the most respect for  Keorin and her massive undertaking, but I don't know how anyone envisioned that somehow hurting the Tsol'teth. Yeah it was a good protest to the Tsol'teth and it opened up an avenue for enjoyement for a lot of the game  (and considering how stressful some people have been during this event, I think that is hugely helpful) but this is Achaea, marching down the streets with posterboard signs will never be as effective as murder, war and sabotage. 

Kaden

To be fair that wasn't just the Senate's fault. It was ultimately put to a referendum and Cyrene was pissed. The city had just recovered from occupation, had suffered 90% denizen casualties (a reverse decimation!) and suddenly we just get an Announce post that the TT were running the games. It's kind of telling that a lot of the initial forum reaction was that it doesn't make rp sense to join, even if it is for the Staff because the intuitive thing to do would be to barge into the TT's home, kick all their stuff down and try to make off with the Staff. The general sentiment was why should we want to play their games after what they did, especially after all the effort it took to make it sink into Cyrene's head just how horrific the cost of the occupation was?

I think even though the Garden did try to nudge us, I still feel like it ultimately there was a failure to properly set the tone so that we all knew that this was the next phase of the conflict rather than a diversion. I'm not mad or anything, nor even really all that disappointed and I think they tried to do the best they can with a very weird development. I just don't think they succeeded all that well in this case.

Hell, I'm not even 100% sure how it could have been done since there was an element of the Gods being sort of above it all, when they were probably the easiest tool to nudge the Coalition with a "here is Our agreement; the fate of the Staff tied with the fate of Sapience" kind of deal with mortals being proxies for Their maneouvring once more.

Keorin

If you can't understand how a god saying "getting the staff will let you make sure the Tsol'teth can't run games like this again" is -worlds- different than "The final result of this war will solely depend on who wins the staff", then I don't know what to say.

Maybe I was just too jaded after watching nothing we'd done make a lick of difference in the rest of the event. Maybe I just relied too much on precedent, and suspected that, since the only thing that we'd seen the staff holder be able to -do- with it was give it to someone, that Neraeos saying that we'd be able to give it to someone else confirmed that was the only thing a staff holder would be able to do with it. Maybe I just had too much faith that after weeks of seeing my faction do more than I had ever seen it done before, that if we had reached the final, singular thing that mattered in this entire event, that it would be made a -little- more clear to us. Maybe I'm just an idiot, and anyone else in the game in my shoes would have been able to properly suss out the implications.

But I also feel like maybe, just -maybe-, this event shouldn't swing on properly interpreting a handful of 9am ct messages correctly, and it's a little frustrating when they're trotted out two weeks later for people to say how obvious it is, when no one at the time was drawing those conclusions.

Synthus

Shirszae said:

I don't know how things could have been made any more clearer than Neraeos made them by that log.  Really can't believe that people insisted on banning everything in spite of it. That's the biggest wtf and proof that most of the senators in Cyrene shouldn't be there... 

"The Staff of Nicator is the only means by which to defeat the Black Wave and turn the tide of the war you wage with them. If you seek vengeance, justice, and retribution for your fallen, then go forth, compete, and lay your claim to the staff. Otherwise, be as silent as the graves you have dug."

Taryius said:

[snip] this is Achaea, marching down the streets with posterboard signs will never be as effective as murder, war and sabotage. 

I know that a number of us tried the murder, war, and sabotage route, but we weren't able to get any traction from that either in game or from NPC interactions. I know I poked at Hycanthus a number of times to try and get something going, but had no luck there. In the end I believe the best we mustered toward that goal was the coalition efforts during the XP Event, but even that felt like I was gonna be shrubbed afterwards for griefing.

Jiraishin

In light of the Neraeos log, It sounds like the problem is less admin not giving direction and more city government.

Asmodron

So far seems like a lot of ego and pride is what blinded the Coalition. The fact that I'm saying that of all people should trouble you.

Shirszae

Synthus said:

Shirszae said:

I don't know how things could have been made any more clearer than Neraeos made them by that log.  Really can't believe that people insisted on banning everything in spite of it. That's the biggest wtf and proof that most of the senators in Cyrene shouldn't be there... 

"The Staff of Nicator is the only means by which to defeat the Black Wave and turn the tide of the war you wage with them. If you seek vengeance, justice, and retribution for your fallen, then go forth, compete, and lay your claim to the staff. Otherwise, be as silent as the graves you have dug."

That's basically what he said. He litterally made a point of mentioning the staff is the most effective weapon against the Tsolteth. You are nitpicking because he didn't say it like you would have, but the essence of the message was the same:
" what you all are seeking won't be achieved by foregoing the chance to get back the staff" 

Kaden

Well ego and pride sort of lends itself to a fantasy game. I'm more looking at the post-mortem from a tabletop DM's perspective and what I am considering in this case to be a failure to anticipate the mood of the players and the likely directions they'd take.

Edit: I am also not looking at this from the lens of we'd just had victory snatched away from us because x. I think Farrah still had a very good chance of winning even if we actually knew the proper win condition. This is really mostly just me thinking aloud as to how things might have been handled better.

Zbaco

Ictinus said:

I wanted to chime in, in response to some of the assertions that have been made in this thread. In particular, the question of whether Cyrene was provided any direction or guidance on how they may best proceed, whether the Staff was clearly outlined as being of crucial importance to the resistance, and also the subject of processing being required in order to compete.

Thanks to the wizards in the Garden, I'm able to provide the following snippets from 4th June, where Neraeos made a distinct effort to cover some of these exact things. It is worth noting that at least two senators were present at the time.

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "The games do not interest Me, but there seems to be a flaw in the logic the proposed manner of resistance."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "How does holding your own games defy the Tsol'teth?"

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "Then you can merely allow the staff to go to their allies, and then back into their hands when the time comes to continue the cycle."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "Point out where they say submit to processing."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "Because it is hard, it should not be tried? I am pointing out that defeating the Tsol'teth, as far as these games go, would be winning the staff and never returning it to them."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "I am spelling it out for you now then, it [sampling] is only for Sojourn."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "I know the terms they have set, if they were to break them, I imagine Others including Myself would step in."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "If you don't wish to participate, then don't. This does nothing to remove the staff, which I will remind you is a powerful weapon, from those who would turn it against you."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "If the last bearer of the staff handed it to Tsol'teth, then surely you can hand it to another."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "Also I will remind you that the staff is the most effective weapon to use against the Tsol'teth."

(Cyrene): Neraeos says, "So it is mostly about the staff from My view."

Don't let this derail the flow of discussion in this thread, I'm offering it up simply to provide context and clarity on one of the most prolific comments we've seen both here and in other platforms.

(My points have likely already been made by the time I get this sent, but what the heck...)

I think that at this particular point, Cyrene was more focused on picking up the pieces than following the plot tracks, even those alluded to by our Patron. Considering how enjoyable said plot had been for the city thus far, I think our slight lack of 'fucks to give' and overlooking some hints here and there can be somewhat forgiven.

Neraeos

It was anticipated @Kaden. No one will ever be 100% happy with things, that is just the reality of these sorts of events (if not all events). Some are quite pleased, others are not. There is a lot still going on, and while I will reflect on some points that could have been improved upon, stories are still playing out, so that is where my focus will be. There isn't really anything else I can add to this conversation, and it has been relented upon ad nauseam.

Kaden

Yeah, it was a rough position especially on very short notice. Still, I hope you take my comments for constructive criticism, @Neraeos and the rest of the Garden too for that matter. I don't envy the position you guys found yourself in and Cyrene is bloody hard to herd on its good days as it is, so I appreciate the work you do for us.