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Leases and Warehousing!



  • NataliiaNataliia Member Posts: 385 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    On a different note, I'm all for freezing mining for a time to let the comm market clear out some. Not actually joking.
  • MathildaMathilda Member Posts: 857 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    It's not hard to figure it out...there's almost nothing "hidden" with mining, anyway.

    1. You find a lode, let's say it's a medium rawstone lode.

    2. This is your first time mining, you know nothing. So you go ahead and put a medium mine on it, max miners.

    3. Take note of the date you started the mine. Take not of MINES GOLD DRAINS.

    4. Wait.

    5. Take note of the date the mine collapsed. Count how many hours it took from start to finish, multiply that by the MINES GOLD DRAINS. Add in the gold cost of the iron and stone you spent on it, and the cost to deploy miners in the first place. Congratulations, you have the overall cost now.

    6. Count how many raw stones you got. Divide it with the cost to get your cost per commodity.

    7. Do not sell it for less than that cost per.

    Ta da! Eventually you will get a feel for what size of mine goes best for what size of lode, etc. The only guessing you really need to do is "Hmm, how many comms are in this lode?" as that's a random number within a range, given a lode size.
  • GreysGreys Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 705 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    @Nataliia Reminds me of the joke about a shop selling things for a loss and trying to make it up in volume. There are easy ways to track your costs as well as the production of each mine to get a feel for the cost of mining each item. I had it all figured out probably within the first few IRL months following mining's implementation. I don't actually mind people placing dumb mines as much as that drives up iron and stone prices. I think its more frustration from watching people continue to do thoughtless things and befuddlement as to why you would do so much mining for a loss as it should be pretty obvious when you have to add gold to the bank. The only thing I can think is there is an addiction of people for it.
  • NataliiaNataliia Member Posts: 385 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I'm aware there are ways to track things, thank you sarcasm wagon @Mathilda . I was more saying there are a lot of people who don't have the time/inclination/or a million other things to figure it out down to the detail, whereas others really like doing that and are very good at it. Not to mention, you'd have to change your figures every single time your miners leveled for every single different lode time/type, and given the random lode size spawns that'd take forever and/or be impossible to get an accurate account for with everything. Just adding it into the code would simplify it a thousand times over.

    Try to be a little more understanding that there are a lot of people that play Achaea, and maybe not everyone is as good at statistics as others.

    And I don't think it's so much an addiction @Greys as the fact that the admin added honors lines, and many people like to go after those (and some houses Consortium use mining as advancement options).
  • TysandrTysandr Member Posts: 439 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Nataliia said:

    Try to be a little more understanding that there are a lot of people that play Achaea, and maybe not everyone is as good at statistics as others.

    Calling it statistics might be a bit of an overkill.
    Nexus: Accents, Autotriggers, Dragon Talismans
    "As the child did... without the rope. Then fear will find you again."

  • NataliiaNataliia Member Posts: 385 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Let's not start nitpicking over things like a single word.
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,011 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mining is one of those completely optional parts of the game that , sure, running excel spreadsheets will have huge advantages over people who don’t. Kinda like those who review combat logs will have a better advantage in PK over those who don’t. But both systems are completely optional and the more effort you put in the more efficient you can be.
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 2,983 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nataliia said:
    (and some houses Consortium use mining as advancement options).
    One of a vast number of completely optional advancement options in the Consortium. Absolutely no-one has to pick a mining task, or a seafaring task, or a shopkeeping task, etc.

    As with many other aspects of the game, if you want to be top-tier (or even mid-tier), you have to do the leg-work. If you want to make a profit from mining, you have to do the boring parts, eg how long a lode will take to mine out, the average number of comms, so you can know which lodes will generate a profit. It's not fair to expect those people who have invested their own time into working these things out just give them away for nothing. People will give advice here and there, but no-one is going to just hand over their work so you can become a direct, more effective, competitor.

    I'm interested to see what happens with this additional cost for storage, as it doesn't just affect miners, but also harvesters, gatherers and extractors. I have a lot of minerals stored in a house because even with max rift expansion, I still need to keep stockpiles for when people want to buy in bulk. It takes too long, even under the new system, to gather 2500 - 5000 of a mineral to sell.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 2,882 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm fairly sure the mining system is designed to punish people who don't go all out with math, and 'personal' miners are either meant to not exist or be losing gold by design.

  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,025 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    All these people asking for warehouses as a housing upgrade. Do you not see the intent behind the warehouse change in general? Or do you just not want to be affected by any change to the game?
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • AccipiterAccipiter Member Posts: 346 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Mercer This game has a problem: there is far too much gold coming in to the economy every day than leaves it. The two primary aspects of the game - RP and PvP - are very hard to use as a gold sink. For RP there are some gold sinks, housing being the primary example, but they are so expensive that they have to be permanent. For PvP you don't want to gate it behind gold costs or people will refuse to participate.

    Additionally, some things that were historically gold sinks have been removed. Blacksmiths used to constantly forge with commshop bought comms. With the smithing rework there is much less reason to constantly forge because 1) Artefact weapons are always better than forged and 2) getting legendary blacksmith is the only reason to forge more than what you need and it is a one time thing. The comms you use are also now produced at around the same price by mines, but the percentage of gold that leaves the economy has gone down.

    The admins are trying to tune this by the look of the changes. They put a gold cap on to reduce the incoming gold, they made this change to increase the amount of gold siphoned by mining (as well as to reduce server load). Yes it will feel bad when your cash cow is slaughtered but it is bad for the economy to have that much gold sitting around. Currently if you aren't one of the rich as god people IG you are completely priced out of many of the one time only things because some people have tens (or hundreds) of millions of gold sitting around to waste on anything that comes up. Even buying credits to sell for gold doesn't mitigate this much because for stuff like auctions if you don't win you are stuck with gold you can't do anything with and for the other things it is relatively hard to get the gold fast enough to buy it before someone who didn't have to convert it buys it out.

    The gold cap is 170k a day or something, a War Galley costs around 15m to commission and kit out and that is the biggest gold sink in the game. In 3 months you can get there if you gold cap every day. Then you are done, you don't need to cap gold anymore because what are you going to spend it on? Yes it might be unreasonable to expect one person to cap every day, but there are many people bashing and getting that gold and you can't tell me there is a new galley every month. The money gets transferred to people through sales of herbs or clothes or enchantments or whatever and the materials from those also appear out of nothing. So gold pools and pools and when something new and fun comes in it is priced so high to try to get some of that gold out that people who haven't been accumulating gold get shafted.

    I don't know what the answer is, but I can identify the problem when it has been pointed out many times over the years. Yes earning less gold for the same work sucks, but we have been earning far too much gold for a long time.

  • KietKiet Member Posts: 2,882 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Also wtf is taking 5-6 hours to do a trade deal are you sailing with no sails or something
  • PyoriPyori Member Posts: 793 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Kiet said:
    Also wtf is taking 5-6 hours to do a trade deal are you sailing with no sails or something
    He swimming.

  • ProficyProficy Member Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Melodie said:
    Makarios said:
    I am curious which comms in particular people find they make little to no profit off of. I know which comms I think those are, but am curious to see if my information lines up with the messy reality.
    @Proficy Bruh we need your numbers. 
    I can help give numbers on how much it costs to mine any lode with different mine sizes... 

    A lot of comms are a negative when it's all said and done.
    (Price of mine comms) +( gold upkeep)
    (Price of coal mine) + (upkeep for coal mine)
    Is the real cost of the comm

    Let's just say the average price of an iron ore *just to use this one for example* to mine out is around 28gold per ironore...  and that is a GENEROUS mining per comm value... it is not selling for even what 20 per on the market as it is.

    We call these troop leveling mines... you take them just to level squads knowing your taking a gold loss...... that's why those small irons are always open and being passed up and that new announce is thankfully going to let them fade. On the flip side, other comms are well worth the effort in mining and make it all the rage.... as how it SHOULD be...... by no means am I complaining about drop or spawn rates... if anything it would be nice to see more use of comms, besides housing and city improvements. Even though every city following mhaldors suit and getting an orb did boost the market some.

    Anyways not even sure where I started with this post... early morning rant I just started cause I saw @Melodie tag me in... but your doing a great job team! @BehindTheSceenCrew just... hurry!!!! My old heart can only hold so much anticipation and excitement
  • ProficyProficy Member Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    An idea to help comms in general is make more use of them. There is a MASSIVE amount of certain comms that will honestly never get used close to how fast they are produced. Comm market doesn't count for rifts and people storing in there houses and what not.

    1. Help Smith's out, make armour and weapons decay faster or need reforging(wear and tear) to get Smith's busy again. This will cause more people to want that trade skill as well.

    2. Have cities have a comm cost to rebuild city rooms when destroyed

    Just a quick few ideas to get them in use a bit more.

    Again I am all for this system, trade ministries use a lot of gold and need some way to make money so I'm all for this leasing system... but the people using the leasing system need some sort of incentive as well... already hard enough to keep people mining, 9 out of 10 miners now only mine cause 1 person is paying them so they can stockpile more than there two mines can get alone.
  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,479 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    There is no way to tell when lodes spawn. There are ways to sort of know what type of comm might spawn next, but not always.

    Most people do share the information you asked for Nataliia. Mhaldor, for example, has a mining clan and that information regarding cost/profit is posted there. No way in hell I'd share that with other factions though - that is terrible RP and poor business. 

  • GreysGreys Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 705 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Targossas has a similar thing as @Cooper described. I remember when furnishing came around how I was surprised it wasn't a commodity sink. I do think something like a statuary would be an interesting way to go where it uses comms to commission instead of gold but this is something that would require a fair bit of admin time. Will continue to think as I prefer to have some constructive suggestions. 
  • KrizalKrizal Member Posts: 11
    Yeah, Hashan also has a mining clan with clhelps detailing costs/speed of mining different comms, and average yields for different lode sizes.

    The change to lodes de-spawning after a while is great, although it likely won't help with comms like platinum which don't spawn too often but also sit on cm for a very long time. With taxes added people will probably be handing them out for free to avoid further losses. This might actually make it more worth it to take smaller lodes instead of large ones and having to pay more for storage.

    More lease system ideas:

    It'd be nice if we could buy insurances for our warehouses in case of dormancy/not being able to log in for a week or two, so instead of going to the city when the warehouse shuts down, the comms would be kept somewhere safe and could be retrieved for a fee after a waiting period.

    Also, a way to transport comms from one warehouse to another in a different city, for a gold cost or a cut of the comms going to the original city, so that getting enemied to a city doesn't screw people out of a ton of comms.

  • AjocAjoc Member Posts: 73 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Am I the only person who waits literal IG decades for better prices on commodities when suck?
  • MathildaMathilda Member Posts: 857 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I try to only release stone in batches of 1000 to try and limit the "supply", but someone(s) always goes in and undercuts with a batch of 5k+ :(
  • ProficyProficy Member Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Ajoc said:
    Am I the only person who waits literal IG decades for better prices on commodities when suck?
    Credit market should tell you.... they never get better....
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,006 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I don't mine myself, so I can't comment on that aspect. However, I don't much like the way this is going to affect player housing and similar things, which will be made all the more expensive unless prices are somehow adjusted to compensate.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...

    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • ProficyProficy Member Posts: 266 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Everyone being so dramatic... they won't raise comm prices.. they WILL actually make people who own comms want to sell them quicker... meaning they will compete more in price... means prices will lower ( 100% theoretically speaking).

    Only thing this slows down is people hoarding comms, which is what is rising the market now to begin with... so @Shirszae let's hope your worries are wrong... only time will tell
  • CerysCerys Member Posts: 23 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    I just started getting into mining, and I even bought an artefact to expand the number of mines I can own. I think a warehouse is a great idea for those of us who don't have ships and have an excess of commodities, minerals, etc. Hopefully it will be less expensive than just expanding my rift. 
  • GreysGreys Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 705 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Agreed, essentially all those who were speculating that people who threw money into mining to mine for a loss would run out of gold are going to either have to:
    * keep speculating that this is for some reason dramatically change despite people being now disincentivized to do so and now pay a gold upkeep for the speculation
    * cash out

  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,302 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiet said:
    I'm fairly sure the mining system is designed to punish people who don't go all out with math, and 'personal' miners are either meant to not exist or be losing gold by design.

    I never got into mining and don't play Achaea anymore, but it sounds to me like the mining system punishes the entire commodity economy for the actions of the uneducated miners. Combine that with the fact that Achaeans tend to drive prices for everything into the dirt, and you have a system that just isn't going to work.
  • LaodokeLaodoke Member Posts: 8
    @Jarrod I totally get the intent does not mean I agree with it. There is an artefact for almost everything in game. There should be artefacts for this as well even if just an ore cart that one can buy expansions for. Many people are of the mentality they would like to own things instead of leasing all their life. Sorry that it feels like just more hands in the money pot. 
  • AjocAjoc Member Posts: 73 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Proficy said:
    Credit market should tell you.... they never get better....
    This is false, as I have watched the prices of iron, coal, stone, carbon, and steel (among other things) rise and fall by 20 - 50gp over long periods of time. The lowest I've seen stone, for example, is around 70gp.  In contrast, I've seen the highest low offer be around 126gp. Both price-points lasted for significant periods of time.
  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,479 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    All of those you mention only go up briefly due to someone going for legendary blacksmith, then they go down again - or someone building a gigantic house.

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