Leases and Warehousing!

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Comments

  • Makarios said:
    I am curious which comms in particular people find they make little to no profit off of. I know which comms I think those are, but am curious to see if my information lines up with the messy reality.
    Platinum, ice, gold, iron, gems, bone, obsidian, for reasons that Skye has basically covered. There’s simply too little demand, and too many miners. If I were willing to play the long game, they will all eventually sell, yes. But having to pay to store these in the mean time means there’s no incentive to even mine those commodities anymore.
  • This does not apply to me, but I wonder if the admin will look at the current cost of the rift artifact prices? I can see someone calculating out the cost of warehouses vs just cramming the extra bulk into their rifts. 
  • Jarrod said:
    I don't think the general playerbase has a high demand for gating new systems behind already limited shops that cost tens of millions of gold.
    The general playerbase doesn't have a use for a warehouse. The general playerbase doesn't have access to the gold or commodities necessary to maintain high volume mining or gathering. This entire system is directed toward a niche group of people, most of who happen to also own shops. 

    Warehouses, instead, tie our commodities more directly to our city states, which is not a bad thing, but introduces even less ability to rock the boat. As it stands, we have subdivision houses, factional classes, shops, and banks that already can tie us to required interaction with an organisation. Don't get me wrong: having organisational loyalty is not a BAD thing, but inter-organisational conflict becomes less viable when now your 100k in comms is sitting in a warehouse that is controlled by the city that you plan to pull a Guy Fawkes upon. 

    I will reserve judgment until we see this play out more, but I think there could be better ways to implement the warehouse ideas. Or, at least, further expansions upon the Warehouses to include more ways to utilize the commodity rift idea. 
  • How does taxper threshold work?

    Like if the taxper is 3000, does storing 1 commodity cost 5000 a month, and storing 3001 commodities cost 10000 a month?
    Or is storage free if you store less than one full taxper, like 2999 commodities?


  • Tiamat said:
    This does not apply to me, but I wonder if the admin will look at the current cost of the rift artifact prices? I can see someone calculating out the cost of warehouses vs just cramming the extra bulk into their rifts. 
    Double Post! But, I have the highest level rift expansion and I STILL run out of rift space with certain items (mostly due to @Nataliia). The problem is, though, that we tend to keep huge portions of riftables due to having shops to stock, mines to do, enchantments to make, etcetera. When you are trying to run commerce, 10k riftables suddenly seems not that big. 
  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    Report #244
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Submitted by: Anonymous      Status      : Rejected
    Skill       : Miscellaneous  Ability     : Shops
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Problem:
          There are a limited number of shops in Achaea and many of those are owned by the
    same people.  Anything that would open shops up for others to sell wares and enjoy the 
    experience themselves would be great.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Solution #1:
          Increase the number of items that can be sold in a shop. This may encourage some
    shop keepers to stick to one shop if item limits were the reason they expanded. Since 
    the room item limit is an issue I'd suggest something that works similar to tuns, but 
    can be used with any groupable item or only certain ones like curatives and inks. 
    Allowing people to buy X amount of the item and not just the group sizes offered 
    currently. These could be sold similarly to tuns.
    Solution #2:
          If possible, allow the shop owner to purchase extra shop space up to a certain
    limit at a considerable cost. This extra space should be removed and non-refundable 
    should the shop owner sell/transfer the shop.
    Solution #3:
          Offer more shops around Sapience, or offer something more permanent than carts
    that have a smaller item capacity. Some shopkeepers don't need as much space, and this 
    also allows for others to learn how to shopkeep. Perhaps a trading district with stalls 
    in a neutral area similar to Delos, or an option city upgrade as well.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Decision:
          I agree with the problem here, but its outside the scope of classleads - would be
    its own project.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    edited May 2018
    As for this new update, how does this work for people who go dormant, especially if it's unexpected for them, like something comes up in real life? Do they just lose their comms or end up with all kinds of fees?

    Edit: Nevermind, I see the answer. Hopefully the trade ministers will be nice about this, because that'd suck to be penalized for things out of someone's control.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • The commodities that have the most loss according to current comm market prices are definitely ice and platinum for me. To a lesser extent, gold, gems, and iron. Coal, bone, and obsidian I can usually break even on.
  • Yeah, gems, iron, gold, platinum, ice are always mined at a loss at current cm prices. The rest vary, depending on lode and mine sizes and the number of miners used.
  • The amount I want to be able to own a Warehouse cannot be overstated.

    - To love another person is to see the face of G/d
    - Let me get my hat and my knife
    - It's your apple, take a bite
    - Don't dream it ... be it


  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    For people who are new to mining it seems like it is expensive to get into and takes a while to start seeing any real profit, plus commodities can sit a while on the market before they sell and the miner even starts to see that return. This especially depends on which commodity they're mining to begin with. Some commodities will absolutely not be worth it. I do not see why the cities should see such a benefit when they've done nothing to contribute to the work the miner has put in by using their own gold and their own time to prospect, and the risk of other miners attacking their mines and potentially losing their investment before they can even finishing mining it. This on top of real life situations coming up where someone can possibly lose their commodities because real life happens and they lose their commodities to the city, this just seems like a pain.

    I feel like an alternative solution would be like starting to purchase your own warehouse space and expanding that, whether you buy it from the city or spend commodities to get it, or both. Then this space belongs to you, the fee is not constantly generated every ~25 hours, and you're not losing the commodities to the city if something happens and you can't take care of when your lease ends. Spend X gold for X space for each commodity type or just X gold for X space altogether or some kind of commodity cost in general for it, or both since it would make sense to also have to build the warehouse. You could pay commodities to build it and gold to the city for the workers, or to Delos. This could be done in the commodity shop still.

    As far the war system, this would only work if both cities agree to hostilities, not raids?
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • edited May 2018
    Here is my mudlet mining script that helps show off some of the issues with mining. It's certainly not perfect, but it generally indicates things, and is easy to edit to see how each number changes things.

    As has been said,
      Stone of any size small+,
      coal huge+,
      silver but you won't sleep for 96 hours straight because you'll be paranoid since the profit is so extremely insane,
      Carbon if you're going for legendary smith
      one or two other things, but only sometimes.


    Big thanks to @Krizal @Laytron @Rilinstra @Proficy for helping with figuring out mining stuff. Not even gonna go into the details of mine attack that will likely need to be changed with any changes that come to how mines work now.

    Also, please let us heal squads. A squad of 17 isn't something anyone wants.


    -- If you find yourself here, thank @Accipiter for building this for Rispok.

    Mining = Mining or {}

    Mining.Lode = {
    tiny = 120,
    small = 1200,
    medium = 2500,
    large = 3649,
    huge = 4700,
    massive = 5900
    }
    Mining.Comm = {
    carbon = {ore = 0, refined = 55, speed = 20, sale = 35},
      coal = {ore = 0, refined = 14, speed = 40, sale = 12}, 
      goldore = {ore = 99, refined = 83, speed = 2, sale = 80},
      impureice = {ore = 79, refined = 94, speed = 2, sale = 75},
      ironore = {ore = 26, refined = 38, speed = 6, sale = 18},
    platinumore = {ore = 48, refined = 54, speed = 1.5, sale = 45},
    rawbone = {ore = 32, refined = 47, speed = 24, sale = 28},
      rawgems = {ore = 140, refined = 149, speed = 1, sale = 130},
    rawobsidian = {ore = 20, refined = 35, speed = 13, sale = 15},
    rawstone = {ore = 92, refined = 107, speed = 8.2, sale = 87},
    silverore = {ore = 275, refined = 284, speed = 2.6, sale = 273}
    }
    Mining.MineCosts = {
    large = {iron = 230, stone = 550, upkeep = 600},
    medium = {iron = 140, stone = 300, upkeep = 350},
    small = {iron = 75, stone = 180, upkeep = 66}
    }


    function Mining.Mine(Commodity, LodeSize, MineSize, Miners)
    local Revenue = Mining.Lode[LodeSize] * Mining.Comm[Commodity]["sale"]
    local SetUpIron = Mining.MineCosts[MineSize]["iron"] * (Mining.Comm.ironore.ore + Mining.Comm.coal.ore)
    local SetUpStone = Mining.MineCosts[MineSize]["stone"] * (Mining.Comm.rawstone.ore + Mining.Comm.coal.ore)
    local SetUpMiners = Miners * 100
    local TotalSetup = SetUpIron + SetUpStone + SetUpMiners
    local TickNumber = Mining.Lode[LodeSize] / (Miners * Mining.Comm[Commodity]["speed"])
    local TickAmount = Miners * 100 + Mining.MineCosts[MineSize]["upkeep"]
    local TotalTick = TickNumber * TickAmount
    Mining.Output = Revenue - (TotalSetup + TotalTick)
    cecho("\n<gold>The profit from <purple>"..Miners.."<gold> miners in a <purple>"..MineSize.."<gold> mine digging up a <purple>"..LodeSize.."<gold> lode of <purple>"..Commodity.."<gold> is <purple>"..math.ceil(Mining.Output).."<gold> gold in <purple>"..math.ceil(TickNumber).."<gold> hours.\n")
    end

    ETA: NONE of this takes into account experience of miners, how much they gain, extra minerals, etc. This is purely a price breakdown.
  • edited May 2018
    Kayeil said:
    Report #244
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Submitted by: Anonymous      Status      : Rejected
    Skill       : Miscellaneous  Ability     : Shops
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Problem:
          There are a limited number of shops in Achaea and many of those are owned by the
    same people.  Anything that would open shops up for others to sell wares and enjoy the 
    experience themselves would be great.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Solution #1:
          Increase the number of items that can be sold in a shop. This may encourage some
    shop keepers to stick to one shop if item limits were the reason they expanded. Since 
    the room item limit is an issue I'd suggest something that works similar to tuns, but 
    can be used with any groupable item or only certain ones like curatives and inks. 
    Allowing people to buy X amount of the item and not just the group sizes offered 
    currently. These could be sold similarly to tuns.
    Solution #2:
          If possible, allow the shop owner to purchase extra shop space up to a certain
    limit at a considerable cost. This extra space should be removed and non-refundable 
    should the shop owner sell/transfer the shop.
    Solution #3:
          Offer more shops around Sapience, or offer something more permanent than carts
    that have a smaller item capacity. Some shopkeepers don't need as much space, and this 
    also allows for others to learn how to shopkeep. Perhaps a trading district with stalls 
    in a neutral area similar to Delos, or an option city upgrade as well.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Decision:
          I agree with the problem here, but its outside the scope of classleads - would be
    its own project.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This isn't quite the same thing @Israyhl and I were talking about. It's one thing to ask for brand new shops or stockroom expansion to exceed 255 capacity, and another to say "Hey, can you go borrow code from Aetolia/Lusternia that already exists and infitely inprove a QoL aspect for shopkeepers and shoppers".

    My comment about the potential of new shops opening wasn't saying "build new shops", it was saying that if commodities and ingredients and the like could be stored in shops themselves, as they are in the other games, it'd be its own form of storage and might incline current shopkeepers to feel the need to own less shops since they wouldn't need 5 in every city by themselves.

    And the only reason it got mentioned here is because enchants, cooking, tailoring, jewellery (and maybe furnishing) can be used off of it. Smithing is kept separate for obvious reasons, because well, stats. But this system is precisely its own form of comm storage.

    Yes, it'd be its own project, but still worth mentioning considering the subject.
  • KayeilKayeil Washington State
    Nataliia said:
    Kayeil said:
    Report #244
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Submitted by: Anonymous      Status      : Rejected
    Skill       : Miscellaneous  Ability     : Shops
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Problem:
          There are a limited number of shops in Achaea and many of those are owned by the
    same people.  Anything that would open shops up for others to sell wares and enjoy the 
    experience themselves would be great.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Solution #1:
          Increase the number of items that can be sold in a shop. This may encourage some
    shop keepers to stick to one shop if item limits were the reason they expanded. Since 
    the room item limit is an issue I'd suggest something that works similar to tuns, but 
    can be used with any groupable item or only certain ones like curatives and inks. 
    Allowing people to buy X amount of the item and not just the group sizes offered 
    currently. These could be sold similarly to tuns.
    Solution #2:
          If possible, allow the shop owner to purchase extra shop space up to a certain
    limit at a considerable cost. This extra space should be removed and non-refundable 
    should the shop owner sell/transfer the shop.
    Solution #3:
          Offer more shops around Sapience, or offer something more permanent than carts
    that have a smaller item capacity. Some shopkeepers don't need as much space, and this 
    also allows for others to learn how to shopkeep. Perhaps a trading district with stalls 
    in a neutral area similar to Delos, or an option city upgrade as well.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Decision:
          I agree with the problem here, but its outside the scope of classleads - would be
    its own project.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This isn't quite the same thing @Israyhl and I were talking about. It's one thing to ask for brand new shops or stockroom expansion to exceed 255 capacity, and another to say "Hey, can you go borrow code from Aetolia/Lusternia that already exists and infitely inprove a QoL aspect for shopkeepers and shoppers".

    My comment about the potential of new shops opening wasn't saying "build new shops", it was saying that if commodities and ingredients and the like could be stored in shops themselves, as they are in the other games, it'd be its own form of storage and might incline current shopkeepers to feel the need to own less shops since they wouldn't need 5 in every city by themselves.

    And the only reason it got mentioned here is because enchants, cooking, tailoring, jewellery (and maybe furnishing) can be used off of it. Smithing is kept separate for obvious reasons, because well, stats. But this system is precisely its own form of comm storage.

    Yes, it'd be its own project, but still worth mentioning considering the subject.
    The main hope was the code being borrowed, but when it comes to classleads other alternatives were provided just in case that wasn't the way admins wanted to go. I really like the idea of something akin to a tun being put into shops where you can just stuff it full of riftables.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • edited May 2018
    Makarios Posts: 1,728 Achaean staff 7:04PM I am curious which comms in particular people find they make little to no profit off of. I know which comms I think those are, but am curious to see if my information lines up with the messy reality.

    Before I began mining I did a personal spreadsheet cost analysis because everyone says 'you won't be profitable for a while'. And it is true. My analysis broke it down to show exactly the fastest way to profitability if I mined X sized mines of Y type. Coopers response and assumptions were accurate.

     The cost of mining, is the daily cost, the cost of replacing lost squads, the costs to CLAIM STORAGE for fear of being attacked. (not to mention the time in rebuilding lost squads)... and now we are introducing a storage tax.

    This makes mining a vastly unattractive enterprise to me. I had only recently returned to it because the sea-trades (my main source of income) have all but dried up for gold.

     I am trying to play a life that does not need to resort to grinding for exp and gold, and yet changes seem to be funneling me towards that. Being a tradesman (inkmiller, furniture, jewellry) none of these things are as profitable as hunting/grinding. That's a shame because it severely limits the roleplay experience. I

    f you're truly going to add a tax to storing commodities, I would ask you consider something to balance the field and make being a non-grinder more worthy. If the roleplay environment is teeter totter, balancing precariously, you know any one change could be that which tips things. Ismay's dismay communicated for her, this was the tipping point.

    The mineral trades, the seatrades, this new warehousing, it all looks (imho) as if we're being funneled into playing a certain way in order to make money and exp.  I did appreciate the revamp on the quests, but have yet to discover one that gives noticably more exp and gold as advertised. 

    Please consider something that boosts tradesman, merchants, and non-grinders. (exp for completed trade items like chairs and necklaces?)

    Thank you -Rane.
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United States
    I very much like this trade. In the past years I've seen rooms, both housing and on ships, filled to the limit with commodities because that was the only real way to store the excess. 

    This is good because commodities are usually either an investment or a kind of currency. People stockpile them for tradeskills, housing, and playing the market, and this will allow them to safely. 


  • After spending some time thinking on it, here is what I would like to see: Go ahead with the changes, but have no minimum tax, and a maximum storage space of 50,000 commodities.

    This accomplishes a few things.

    This means you can have free storage in your city, and if you're a heavy miner, the opportunity to negotiate with other cities for warehouse space. It also will greatly reduce the number of people who have several hundred thousand commodities just sitting around, since it'll be rather expensive to store all those, all the while not shafting the entire mining community.

    It also makes getting enemied to a city carry a bit more weight. If your character is a notorious villain (Hi @Proficy), then you have to live with the consequences of that decision.

    Delos can be a neutral warehouse space, with a minimum tax of whatever, for those people.

    The idea of negotiating leases is rather exciting, and will open tons of opportunities for unique RP. I'm all for it. And I love the idea of having the very real possibility of losing all of your commodities (or minerals and plants, or whatever you will be storing in there in the future) for betraying your city. That's the consequence of a very serious action, and lately, I feel as if consequences have been lacking in Achaea.

    I think this solves the issue most of us, or at least me, have with the proposed system, while not forcing the admin to completely scrap it and start over.
  • Original web tool I developed that lets you somewhat quickly figure out mine value. It has some numbers that are out of date, but it's still somewhat functional. I'll share it, but try not to break it by editing values.

    Basic use, pick the dropdown folders and see how much money you will get.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FNfwN2xpnNlrBaOqcTAt1Y772b4_l58qWF74O50xAXY/edit?usp=sharing
  • Jarrod said:
    If there's not mechanics that prevent using the comm market as storage I would be baffled.

    I feel it's safe to say the admin have thought of this.
    I mean, right now you can store items in the commodity market for 0 cost, and the only caveat is that they are returned yearly if not sold. Currently there are 96,176 iron commodities stored in the market. I don't particularly think it is a -bad- thing, because that means almost 100k commodities are stored there, and not spread around the world in containers and spilled on the floor. 
    They are not returned yearly. The help file is erroneous. Items there stay there indefinitely so you can use the comm market as free storage.
  • edited May 2018
    I don’t get why we have to pay even more to mine. Mining was never free to begin with. There isn’t a daily cost on getting herbs/minerals though the one for mining is already high. The shop thing wouldn’t help all of us not that it wouldn’t be great for the people it did. I would like to see it as a housing upgrade if nothing else. I do agree with the person that said why should the cities profit. Though my city is no doubt awesome they didn’t have a role in the process. If the comms stay where they don’t decay and we just have to assume risk for storing them outside of market that would be fine too.
  • The interesting thing is that for many people, they will just try to cash out rather than pay the extra cost. That means those who pay the extra cost will have to wait till that whole extra supply sitting around is exhausted to start making a profit. Imagine it will accelerate the process of people getting broke and giving up mining rather than being able to funnel more gold into the process.
  • I think people are drastically overestimating how much gold this will cost them. 
  • Laodoke said:
    I don’t get why we have to pay even more to mine. Mining was never free to begin with. There isn’t a daily cost on getting herbs/minerals though the one for mining is already high. The shop thing wouldn’t help all of us not that it wouldn’t be great for the people it did. I would like to see it as a housing upgrade if nothing else. I do agree with the person that said why should the cities profit. Though my city is no doubt awesome they didn’t have a role in the process. If the comms stay where they don’t decay and we just have to assume risk for storing them outside of market that would be fine too.
    There isn't a daily cost for herbs/minerals, you're right. It's called purchasing Harvesting and Transmutation as extra skills, and then the potential extra investment of two separate kinds of gloves, and a vault for your rift space.

    Let's just assume Harvesting and Transmutation were my first two trades, so didn't cost me extra to get a trade license or extra lessons once I hit my third trade. Their base cost is still 1,392 lessons (or roughly 232 credits), plus 300 for gloves of extraction, another 300 for gloves of harvesting, and 500 more for a greater vault. So we're looking at 1,332 credits as a start up for serious gathering, versus under 100k to start up a full legion for mining.

    Unless you spend credits to get the mining artefacts, you can 100% do mining with gold alone because you didn't have to buy into a skill to become a miner to begin with.

    Comparing these is like comparing oranges to apples, and commodities have never been free regardless. Before it became a player-generated thing, you still had to go to comm shops across the world and pray comms were there and then purchase them.  The one thing I can say for mining is that now there is at least a reliable excess of comms available, even if there is a very very small handful of people who actually turn a profit with mining.
  • Reliable excess of comms isn't actually a good thing, it means there are too few drains for those commodities. It's just like having too much gold (sovereigns) in the market.
     <3 
  • Mathilda said:
    Reliable excess of comms isn't actually a good thing, it means there are too few drains for those commodities. It's just like having too much gold (sovereigns) in the market.
    Definitely was not implying that it was a good thing to have an excess. But it is a good thing to have enough to actually reliably purchase at any given time, unlike how it used to work where it was all but impossible to get certain comms without paying 600 a piece because people kept buying them out in entirety.
  • @Makarios What's the price per month per x comms? From what it looks like we can only set the base number of comms taxed, not the tax itself.

    Also, for all of the Naysayers...As an MoT (Minister of Trade), this is both awesome and a reason to buy stock in aspirin.

    City improvements don't maintain themselves for free. There are... *gasps* costs involved in making sure you have the joys you do. These things have to be mined or bought. So they are a drain on the city (the exception is if someone wants to donate a lot of comms to their city and fix it. Which I don't see happening.) This warehouse leasing eases that.

    The other side is that MoTs have a decent amount of paperwork to do. Suffice to say, more than one of us has spent IRL hours staring at an Excel Spreadsheet simultaneously swearing and wanting a drink. This adds some more to it.

    There is a whole lot of potential for this. There are many variables that will come into play. Personally? I'm back to being excited about Achaea in a "hell yeah!" way.
  • It is like anything else you want to invest in sure. Though those of us that have bought legion expansions and ability to have more than 2 mines, we are pretty much stuck with that purchase regardless however this pans out. It’s not the idea that the raise in cost could be so drastic it’s the idea that mining has always been an expensive endeavor from the start now it’s going to be more expensive. Though miners footing the bill for city improvements doesn’t make it anymore exciting. Sales are definitely going to slow because people are just going to buy only what they need to get by. I guess I will wait with everyone else and see what is decided. 
  • Laodoke said:
    It is like anything else you want to invest in sure. Though those of us that have bought legion expansions and ability to have more than 2 mines, we are pretty much stuck with that purchase regardless however this pans out. It’s not the idea that the raise in cost could be so drastic it’s the idea that mining has always been an expensive endeavor from the start now it’s going to be more expensive. Though miners footing the bill for city improvements doesn’t make it anymore exciting. Sales are definitely going to slow because people are just going to buy only what they need to get by. I guess I will wait with everyone else and see what is decided. 
    You can also always do what some people do. Use creativity. Make people want to buy your comms. Start a fad where wearing 10 different rings every other month is the 'cool' thing to do. Yeah, it's a game. However human mentality (or Grook, Atavian, whatever) still comes into play with people wanting to 'fit' in.

    Some people strut their stuff. Offer to give them a package deal of gold and silver so they can get their favourite jeweler to  make them yet more jewellery. Cater to smiths determined to become legendary. The possibilities are only limited by your imagination or lack thereof.
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