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Comments
Warehouses, instead, tie our commodities more directly to our city states, which is not a bad thing, but introduces even less ability to rock the boat. As it stands, we have subdivision houses, factional classes, shops, and banks that already can tie us to required interaction with an organisation. Don't get me wrong: having organisational loyalty is not a BAD thing, but inter-organisational conflict becomes less viable when now your 100k in comms is sitting in a warehouse that is controlled by the city that you plan to pull a Guy Fawkes upon.
I will reserve judgment until we see this play out more, but I think there could be better ways to implement the warehouse ideas. Or, at least, further expansions upon the Warehouses to include more ways to utilize the commodity rift idea.
Like if the taxper is 3000, does storing 1 commodity cost 5000 a month, and storing 3001 commodities cost 10000 a month?
Or is storage free if you store less than one full taxper, like 2999 commodities?
Edit: Nevermind, I see the answer. Hopefully the trade ministers will be nice about this, because that'd suck to be penalized for things out of someone's control.
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I feel like an alternative solution would be like starting to purchase your own warehouse space and expanding that, whether you buy it from the city or spend commodities to get it, or both. Then this space belongs to you, the fee is not constantly generated every ~25 hours, and you're not losing the commodities to the city if something happens and you can't take care of when your lease ends. Spend X gold for X space for each commodity type or just X gold for X space altogether or some kind of commodity cost in general for it, or both since it would make sense to also have to build the warehouse. You could pay commodities to build it and gold to the city for the workers, or to Delos. This could be done in the commodity shop still.
As far the war system, this would only work if both cities agree to hostilities, not raids?
This is kind of up my alley, so I'm going to respond with great detail here.
I keep track of profit on all comms, and I'll list you which ones are profitable by lode size.
Things my numbers assume:
You use a large mine to get the max miners bonus.
You use max miners (14) in the mine (leaving you open to attacks).
You do not collect commodities while the mine is going (leaving you open to losing a lot on attacks).
Miner initial cost, and retraining when you are attacked is not included in any way.
The opportunity cost of the stone, coal, and iron you could have sold on the market instead of making the mine is included. This means that currently a large mine costs 65,850 gold to start.
Current lowest commodity sales price as of 5 minutes ago are the prices used to calculate value.
The lodes produce their 'averages' (1000 for small, 2500 for medium, 4000 for large, 5000 for huge, 6000 for massive).
You never get attacked ever.
Here are the lode sizes by comm that are profitable. Any smaller lode sizes are not profitable.
Carbon - medium and above
Iron - all lodes lose gold
Obsidian - large and above
Silver - all
Gold - medium and above
Platinum - all lodes lose gold
Gems - about break even on small, which is currently all that spawns
Coal - all lodes lose gold
Bone - Large and above
Ice - Medium and above
Stone - all
The numbers get worse in every scenario I've run if you don't use a large mine with max miners.
This means that almost all small lodes are not profitable, which are the majority of lodes (exceptions - stone and gems that will net you about 9.5k-10k gold profit, and silver that will net you 173k profit).
This assumption that you will never be attacked is also very false, and that is a huge set back.
So out of the 51 potential lode sizes (assuming ice can still spawn up to massive which may not be true), 21 of them will never be profitable at current prices. The lode spawns are also highly skewed towards small lodes, which makes that figure worse than it actually looks.
As has been said,
Stone of any size small+,
coal huge+,
silver but you won't sleep for 96 hours straight because you'll be paranoid since the profit is so extremely insane,
Carbon if you're going for legendary smith
one or two other things, but only sometimes.
Big thanks to @Krizal @Laytron @Rilinstra @Proficy for helping with figuring out mining stuff. Not even gonna go into the details of mine attack that will likely need to be changed with any changes that come to how mines work now.
Also, please let us heal squads. A squad of 17 isn't something anyone wants.
tiny = 120,
ETA: NONE of this takes into account experience of miners, how much they gain, extra minerals, etc. This is purely a price breakdown.
My comment about the potential of new shops opening wasn't saying "build new shops", it was saying that if commodities and ingredients and the like could be stored in shops themselves, as they are in the other games, it'd be its own form of storage and might incline current shopkeepers to feel the need to own less shops since they wouldn't need 5 in every city by themselves.
And the only reason it got mentioned here is because enchants, cooking, tailoring, jewellery (and maybe furnishing) can be used off of it. Smithing is kept separate for obvious reasons, because well, stats. But this system is precisely its own form of comm storage.
Yes, it'd be its own project, but still worth mentioning considering the subject.
Before I began mining I did a personal spreadsheet cost analysis because everyone says 'you won't be profitable for a while'. And it is true. My analysis broke it down to show exactly the fastest way to profitability if I mined X sized mines of Y type. Coopers response and assumptions were accurate.
The cost of mining, is the daily cost, the cost of replacing lost squads, the costs to CLAIM STORAGE for fear of being attacked. (not to mention the time in rebuilding lost squads)... and now we are introducing a storage tax.
This makes mining a vastly unattractive enterprise to me. I had only recently returned to it because the sea-trades (my main source of income) have all but dried up for gold.
I am trying to play a life that does not need to resort to grinding for exp and gold, and yet changes seem to be funneling me towards that. Being a tradesman (inkmiller, furniture, jewellry) none of these things are as profitable as hunting/grinding. That's a shame because it severely limits the roleplay experience. I
f you're truly going to add a tax to storing commodities, I would ask you consider something to balance the field and make being a non-grinder more worthy. If the roleplay environment is teeter totter, balancing precariously, you know any one change could be that which tips things. Ismay's dismay communicated for her, this was the tipping point.
The mineral trades, the seatrades, this new warehousing, it all looks (imho) as if we're being funneled into playing a certain way in order to make money and exp. I did appreciate the revamp on the quests, but have yet to discover one that gives noticably more exp and gold as advertised.
Please consider something that boosts tradesman, merchants, and non-grinders. (exp for completed trade items like chairs and necklaces?)
Thank you -Rane.
This is good because commodities are usually either an investment or a kind of currency. People stockpile them for tradeskills, housing, and playing the market, and this will allow them to safely.
This accomplishes a few things.
This means you can have free storage in your city, and if you're a heavy miner, the opportunity to negotiate with other cities for warehouse space. It also will greatly reduce the number of people who have several hundred thousand commodities just sitting around, since it'll be rather expensive to store all those, all the while not shafting the entire mining community.
It also makes getting enemied to a city carry a bit more weight. If your character is a notorious villain (Hi @Proficy), then you have to live with the consequences of that decision.
Delos can be a neutral warehouse space, with a minimum tax of whatever, for those people.
I think this solves the issue most of us, or at least me, have with the proposed system, while not forcing the admin to completely scrap it and start over.
Basic use, pick the dropdown folders and see how much money you will get.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FNfwN2xpnNlrBaOqcTAt1Y772b4_l58qWF74O50xAXY/edit?usp=sharing
Let's just assume Harvesting and Transmutation were my first two trades, so didn't cost me extra to get a trade license or extra lessons once I hit my third trade. Their base cost is still 1,392 lessons (or roughly 232 credits), plus 300 for gloves of extraction, another 300 for gloves of harvesting, and 500 more for a greater vault. So we're looking at 1,332 credits as a start up for serious gathering, versus under 100k to start up a full legion for mining.
Unless you spend credits to get the mining artefacts, you can 100% do mining with gold alone because you didn't have to buy into a skill to become a miner to begin with.
Comparing these is like comparing oranges to apples, and commodities have never been free regardless. Before it became a player-generated thing, you still had to go to comm shops across the world and pray comms were there and then purchase them. The one thing I can say for mining is that now there is at least a reliable excess of comms available, even if there is a very very small handful of people who actually turn a profit with mining.
That said, shops are something we'd like to make less terrible at some point, as the current system certainly shows its age.
Also, for all of the Naysayers...As an MoT (Minister of Trade), this is both awesome and a reason to buy stock in aspirin.
City improvements don't maintain themselves for free. There are... *gasps* costs involved in making sure you have the joys you do. These things have to be mined or bought. So they are a drain on the city (the exception is if someone wants to donate a lot of comms to their city and fix it. Which I don't see happening.) This warehouse leasing eases that.
The other side is that MoTs have a decent amount of paperwork to do. Suffice to say, more than one of us has spent IRL hours staring at an Excel Spreadsheet simultaneously swearing and wanting a drink. This adds some more to it.
There is a whole lot of potential for this. There are many variables that will come into play. Personally? I'm back to being excited about Achaea in a "hell yeah!" way.
Some people strut their stuff. Offer to give them a package deal of gold and silver so they can get their favourite jeweler to make them yet more jewellery. Cater to smiths determined to become legendary. The possibilities are only limited by your imagination or lack thereof.