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Leases and Warehousing!

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  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the Storm
    Certain comms make a loss because people are willing to sell those comms so cheaply that they make a loss, there's continuously a race to the bottom to offload comms, and adding a levy to storage will exacerbate that issue, at least in the short term. Once those miners who will drop prices to make a quick sale start to run out of gold, they'll hopefully either stop mining, or stop the price driving into the ground (no pun intended).

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • MathildaMathilda
    One reason (aside from human ignorance) that drives comm prices into unprofitability is the sheer amount of comms produced vs. the actual drain to the economy. Even silver, vastly the most profitable commodity in the market, has almost 20,000 units in the Delos Comms Market alone.

    Now, it's been stated that this is just the beginning of a revamp for the system (which is tied into a war system yay), so perhaps down the line the comms excess would be addressed. But another solution would be to review and probably lessen the amount of commodities generated by mining, while spreading them out into more lodes so that more people can still get into mining.

    For example, let's say this is the stone spawn right now:

    x5 tiny lodes
    x5 small lodes
    x5 medium lodes
    x5 large lodes
    x5 huge lodes
    x5 massive lodes

    make it:

    x10 tiny lodes
    x10 small lodes
    x10 medium lodes
    x10 large lodes

    ** again, just an example!

     <3 
  • VerruchtVerrucht
    Lii said:
    @Makarios What's the price per month per x comms? From what it looks like we can only set the base number of comms taxed, not the tax itself.

    Also, for all of the Naysayers...As an MoT (Minister of Trade), this is both awesome and a reason to buy stock in aspirin.

    City improvements don't maintain themselves for free. There are... *gasps* costs involved in making sure you have the joys you do. These things have to be mined or bought. So they are a drain on the city (the exception is if someone wants to donate a lot of comms to their city and fix it. Which I don't see happening.) This warehouse leasing eases that.

    The other side is that MoTs have a decent amount of paperwork to do. Suffice to say, more than one of us has spent IRL hours staring at an Excel Spreadsheet simultaneously swearing and wanting a drink. This adds some more to it.

    There is a whole lot of potential for this. There are many variables that will come into play. Personally? I'm back to being excited about Achaea in a "hell yeah!" way.
    It looks like right now the way it is set up, the MINIMUM taxper you can set is 5k - which means that the price per month then gets determined what you allow as storage for that fee. It would be nice if the MINIMUM taxper was more malleable based on the size of the storage. If someone is saving up to build a house, there's no reason they'd need more than an extra 10k or so in storage and it would make a lot of sense to be able to price that down around the 500-1k level - if I'm considering doing 50k-100k for 5kish. While they sought to prevent a race to the bottom, it's more a race to the top with storage size with what most players would intuit being a fairly prohibitive monthly storage cost.

  • VerruchtVerrucht

    So for thoughts, since you're trying to prevent a race to the bottom how about making the minimum taxper 10% of the storage that you're setting. That way you're stopping people from pricing 100k storage for just 5k gold as well and it allows people to have smaller warehouses without being so heavily penalised for it. With that system you could also set a theoretical maximum storage limit as well for cities, so that they can't just do the maximum storage for minimum price ad infinitum.

    Apologies if anything I'm commenting on is wrong because I'm wrong, this is just after poking at the system and trying to make it work.

  • VerruchtVerrucht
    Also, it would be really excellent to put in a system to allow people to purchase from the commodity market into a warehouse and sell from a warehouse into the commodity market so that this is better integrated into what we're currently using.

  • LaodokeLaodoke
    So basically if I have 50k coal and it sits in storage for 10 years by the time I have paid 60k a year if that was the decided on price I’ve paid the city back for all of my product if I have 100k coal and the price is still 5k a month then I’ve paid the city for half the value of my product by 10 years. Assuming I guess all the comms are going to be taxed at the same rate. I would 100x rather pay 400 cr for an Artie that stores it all or more and just be done worrying about fees. It would be cool if there were multiple options with this instead of just one way. Though money sits in the bank and doesn’t cost till you withdraw it. Would be nice if when you withdrew or sold a small tax was applied then not a gigantic take all my money tax. The stronghold gets their fee too shouldn’t really be more than a stronghold fee which is just 5%. 
  • MakariosMakarios
    Verrucht said:
    Also, it would be really excellent to put in a system to allow people to purchase from the commodity market into a warehouse and sell from a warehouse into the commodity market so that this is better integrated into what we're currently using.


    This is definitely on the list.

  • MakariosMakarios
    We pre set the tax amount at 5k mostly to avoid complexity, but I'm getting the impression people would really like to be able to set that. I'll think about that some more.

  • CaelanCaelan
    I dont mine. But I understand the desire to clean up swaths of numbers to make the game faster / better.   I totally get the need for gold sinks.   Why not just have a vault in houses (thinking gun safe vs this idea which feels like a storage locker facility)?  I have random stuff in my rift and whatnot that i dont want disappearing.

    1 million gold vault holds 10k items.  Can only be placed in houses. That way you get gold out, they get rift expansions, and more gold comes out to build the houses.  Can even make specific vaults for comms, etc. 

    They have 100,000 stone? 10 vaults = 10,000,000  gold out of the market and 100,000 items freed up.

  • LaodokeLaodoke
    For regular items that would be a huge amount but for a mine that would hold like the equivalent of a massive and a huge lode almost. Would be filled up with just 2 mines. Which people pick up mines every month. Though a vault sounds amazing. If it were like 100 cr per 100k items that would be more realistic for perma storage. Or if you had the way to combine comms into bigger blocks of comms that take up less storage space item count wise and then break them down later. Though still would rather have my vault outside of the city or movable on its own. Never know what a city will enemy for. 
  • AtalkezAtalkez
    Sounds very similar to the request for more secure storage in the player housing economy.




    Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
  • VerruchtVerrucht
    Caelan said:
    I dont mine. But I understand the desire to clean up swaths of numbers to make the game faster / better.   I totally get the need for gold sinks.   Why not just have a vault in houses (thinking gun safe vs this idea which feels like a storage locker facility)?  I have random stuff in my rift and whatnot that i dont want disappearing.

    1 million gold vault holds 10k items.  Can only be placed in houses. That way you get gold out, they get rift expansions, and more gold comes out to build the houses.  Can even make specific vaults for comms, etc. 

    They have 100,000 stone? 10 vaults = 10,000,000  gold out of the market and 100,000 items freed up.
    Yeah, but one thing I like about this system is that it gives cities an actual income stream (assuming it's used at all) other than credit sales and whatever they have invented as income streams. Your suggestion doesn't really address this part.

  • LaodokeLaodoke
    Taxing miners isn’t really addressing the problem either it just creates a problem for someone else. It makes sense to be able to buy a permanent solution. Nobody wants to lease forever. 
  • CaelanCaelan
    what cities need an influx of cash?

    Other than bragging rights, what is city gold used for that cant be generated via IG methods that simultaneously make the player population of said city even tighter?

    Emotional bonding thru fiscal bonding. Keep city govt out of it

  • KrizalKrizal
    @Caelan cities need gold to buy commodities for city improvements, which can cost a couple million gold a year, unless citizens are just donating the commodities. Security needs gold for guards and bounties, and building new things in the city can also cost large sums of gold. Currently cities rely mostly on creditsales and donations for gold, and not all cities can run creditsales every ic year. You could consider warehouse taxes a different form of donation, where you also get protection for your commodities in exchange for the donation.


    Anyway, here are some ideas for the lease system after trying it out briefly:

    The ability to modify taxper costs on a per-commodity basis. Currently, 5k silver is worth a small fortune, while 5k coal costs under 60k gold. It doesn't make sense to pay the same taxper costs for both of those, but any taxper that would be worth storing coal for would make storing silver ridiculously cheap compared to what it's worth.

    An option for smaller leases, less than 5-10k commodities, with a smaller pre-defined tax rate. This might need to be limited to prevent someone from storing all of their comms in small bunches for a smaller tax, but the gold cost on requesting a lease will likely also discourage doing that.

    Some way to quickly see which warehouse you have stored a certain commodity in. Something like WAREHOUSE LIST COAL, which would show the amount of coal in each of your warehouses. Perhaps a WAREHOUSE RIFT to get an overview of all comms you currently have in storage.

  • CobaultCobault
    Delete Mining.
    No one is happy with anything anyways. Why work to balance the table by sticking something under one of the legs when you could just rage-destroy the table completely.
  • LaodokeLaodoke
    This is not balancing the table. Piggybacking off someone’s efforts don’t balance things out. If the table was going to be balanced at all credits wouldn’t be 10k per among other things. Though I am told to be creative to make due with this change so I will throw that back. Creativity would be inventing ways for your ministry to profit. The same concept applies if I am expected to do it shouldn’t be too harsh to expect it of them too.. 
  • CooperCooper
    The biggest problem with mining, like pretty much every other player affected market in the game, is that a large portion of people who mine don't actually know the cost of mining, and sell at a loss. Mining being not profitable is mostly the fault of players who refuse to sit on comms for a period of time, and just drop the price below current cost to sell it faster.

  • PyoriPyori
    edited May 2018
    Cooper said:
    The biggest problem with mining, like pretty much every other player affected market in the game, is that a large portion of people who mine don't actually know the cost of mining, and sell at a loss. Mining being not profitable is mostly the fault of players who refuse to sit on comms for a period of time, and just drop the price below current cost to sell it faster.
    Reminds me exactly why I fucking hate gathering/mining in MMOs.
    Someone sells for 1000g per item, cool. You undercut them by ~5-10% and sell for like 950g per item... Then you check like an hour later and some dickhead went and listed his items for 400g per item, and it's just spiraled further down from there and the price stays at that much for like 2 weeks.

  • TorinnTorinn
    Yep.  It's why I don't bother.  If people quit mining then maybe it'd start being worth my time.
    Deucalion says, "Torinn is quite nice."
  • AccipiterAccipiter
    edited May 2018
    Supply is much higher than demand. Most of the comms aren't used. Lowbies make 2 weapons and a set of armour every 60 Achaean months, maybe get a water walking enchant. Midbies lose the weapons but get a couple more enchants, High level don't need to be involved with forging at all, most of their enchants are on perm things so they mostly step away from that as well.

    Of course you can't make money on comms, a single mine of each type will give an average player all the comms they will ever need until they decide to buy a house. This seems to be a step in the direction to make comms actually worth something so maybe relax on the 'this will stop everyone from mining' rhetoric until they reveal the rest of the plan, because if you have a million of each comm then you should probably not be mining until you can sell some of that stuff anyway.
  • CooperCooper
    Suppy is higher than demand because players are stupid.

    The vast majority of people who mine, again, have no clue what the value of their commodities are. If they were smart, they would not mine lodes that were not profitable, and would not price commodities under the profit floor. They do both of these things.

  • AccipiterAccipiter
    Cooper said:
    Suppy is higher than demand because players are stupid.

    The vast majority of people who mine, again, have no clue what the value of their commodities are. If they were smart, they would not mine lodes that were not profitable, and would not price commodities under the profit floor. They do both of these things.
    No, supply is higher than demand because mines produce an order of magnitude more commodities than are used per month. If you reduced the cost and payout of mines by 90% you would see comm prices soar once everyone got rid of their stock. There just aren't enough outlets to use up what is produced, the same issue with gold.
  • CooperCooper
    Commodity prices might go up, but you would still lose gold mining them. That would not affect players not knowing what commodites cost to mine, and selling them for under that cost.

    You do not understand the stupidity of players regarding this sort of thing.

  • SkyeSkye The Duchess Bellatere
    The problem with 'not mining lodes that are not profitable' is that the lodes don't seem to go away? Unless they get replaced each spawn, sooner or later you're going to wind up with a bunch of iron lodes all over the place. For example.


  • AccipiterAccipiter
    edited May 2018
    The price for the commodities should always be around the cost to mine them, that just just how economics work. The only thing that can change that is if they are rarer than they need to be for the day to day to function, like you saw with moss and bloodroot back in the day, this increases the profitability. If the costs are somewhat hidden like they currently are then you will see people who entered the market, got a stockpile but no way to see a return on it so they undercut the market trying to get some of their money back. If they can't sell it in a reasonable timeframe then some other idiot who also didn't do the maths right does the same thing.

    If the market was cleared quicker this wouldn't be a problem but you have 'rational' people who won't sell at a loss who just build their stockpiles while waiting for the market to recover from those price drops, but it never does because there are huge amounts of commodities that come out of one mine and not very many people who actually want them. Sometimes you get lucky and someone wants to become a legendary blacksmith and buys everything out, but usually not.

    If you have a stockpile large enough that leases are a significant drain on your funds, the answer is to stop mining and sell some stuff, not keep mining more and complain that other people are selling for less. If it isn't profitable get out of the market until it is.

    I have less sympathy for miners than other trades though, because your time investment is minimal. Other than checking the lodes which apparently some people know when they spawn, everything else is automated so it is free money outside the gold cap, of course the profit on it is going to be low.
  • GreysGreys
    @Accipiter That is my plan.
  • NataliiaNataliia
    Cooper said:
    The biggest problem with mining, like pretty much every other player affected market in the game, is that a large portion of people who mine don't actually know the cost of mining, and sell at a loss. Mining being not profitable is mostly the fault of players who refuse to sit on comms for a period of time, and just drop the price below current cost to sell it faster.
    The biggest problem really is that those who do have all the answers don't really want to share their information because then it takes away from their potential to make a profit.

    The numbers for mining and the release of how and when mines spawn was never made public knowledge. Mining was put in as a, "Here you go! Have fun figuring this out!" like IRE does with a lot of things. If players aren't willing to share their statistics, and instead just go around checking lodes and only occasionally shout out, "x lode is up come get it" over a clan, that's not actually teaching anyone anything it's tossing out bones.

    Insofar the closest anything has gotten to implementing figuring out how much things cost is adding MINES GOLD DRAINS. Unfortunately, there isn't anything implemented that takes into account the important factors that go into mining such as...
    1. What level are your miners
    2. How many miners you have running in a mine
    3. Type of ore being mined and how much comes at a time
    4. The size of your mine
    If these things were actually just shown, and not made a general guessing game, then people would probably undercut less because they'd know exactly how much their mine wound up costing them and then could do the much more basic math of, "My mine just cost me 200k and I got 4000 stone, which means I should be selling at over 50 gold per (raw) stone to turn a profit." (This also doesn't take into account the cost of stone/iron that was fronted to build whatever mine size you built.)

    Those of you who have run all the numbers feel free to help teach people.

    Or better yet, how about mines just get smart timers that take into account the level and number of miner squads you put in versus the speed/amount of <ore> mined per IG day and add a line that says "This mine will complete in 72 Achaean days" and take the guesswork out of it. (Only kind of being sort of potentially facetious here?)
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