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Leases and Warehousing!

NicolaNicola Posts: 657Administrator Achaean staff
For a long time we've had a persistent issue in Achaea where commodities tend to be stored on ships or in stockrooms by necessity, as rift capacities simply don't cover the amounts some people produce on a regular basis.

This also causes fairly common instances of massive loss on a player's part, if they happen to be carrying all their commodities and drop link, or similar such things. We've been talking for quite some time about ways to tackle this, and move commodity storage into a more thematic system.

Welcome Leases and Warehousing!

A system by which trade ministers may lease out warehouse space on behalf of their city. This is a fairly flexible system in terms of competition - some leases will be far cheaper than others or last much longer, entirely based on trade ministry discretion. There is a lower cap to avoid a race to the bottom, but it is our hope that we'll see people make reasonable compromises when setting up their leases.
 
So what does this actually change?
 
- It allows us to set up things where commodities will be delivered straight to your warehousing when making large transactions. This will come in once people have had time to set up their leases, as we appreciate trade ministries may need to discuss how they're going to go about this.
 
- It allows us to work commodities into conflict vectors more reasonably. I won't say much here, but there are plans here concerning the ever so elusive war system.
 
- Most importantly for you guys, it allows us to move a lot of items out of the general item database. This makes Achaea run faster.

With that in mind, on June 20th 2018 (so there's a long transition period to get your affairs in order), we will be making it much less viable to store massive numbers of commodities outside your rift or warehousing. We will warn you all again no less than a week in advance of this happening, so it won't sneak up on you.
 
All the syntaxes and exact mechanics of leases and warehousing can be found under HELP LEASES!
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Comments

  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 280Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited May 4
    Can you define "much less viable", in relation to mass storage outside of the leases spaces?
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,739Administrator Achaean staff
    Micaelis said:
    Can you define "much less viable", in relation to mass storage outside of the leases spaces?


    Details may change slightly, but I would say vastly impractical at best. Essentially, we want to remove the possibility without impacting people's day to day manipulation of commodities (housing expansion, building mines, etc etc).

  • TiamatTiamat Posts: 83Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I presume Delos will have its own system as well. Not able to login atm.
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,739Administrator Achaean staff
    Tiamat said:
    I presume Delos will have its own system as well. Not able to login atm.


    We have a special plan for Delos. Its fairly contingent on the other cities having their stuff set up, but you can expect something there.

    Kresslack
  • TysandrTysandr Posts: 439Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Rogue options?
    Nexus: Accents, Autotriggers, Dragon Talismans
    "As the child did... without the rope. Then fear will find you again."

  • ProficyProficy Posts: 255Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I'm super excited to see how this is going to play out....
    Not trying to ruin any surprises, but are herbs minerals going to get a decay timer applied to them?
  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 280Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Is there a baseline cost per warehouse/lease for the cities themselves, from which the baseline price of the tax/taxper is set? Essentially does it cost money for the cities to have these which the taxes offset. 

    I assume so but I can't find a figure listed so far in the help file.
  • JarrodJarrod Posts: 3,009Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 4


    Delos Edition

    (For Mak, it's Storage Wars)
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    CailinAtalkezKresslackXae
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,739Administrator Achaean staff
    Proficy said:
    I'm super excited to see how this is going to play out....
    Not trying to ruin any surprises, but are herbs minerals going to get a decay timer applied to them?


    Not herbs and minerals for the moment. If we make changes there they'll be independent of commodities, since the use cases are a bit different.

    Nataliia
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,739Administrator Achaean staff
    Micaelis said:
    Is there a baseline cost per warehouse/lease for the cities themselves, from which the baseline price of the tax/taxper is set? Essentially does it cost money for the cities to have these which the taxes offset. 

    I assume so but I can't find a figure listed so far in the help file.


    A 10% maintenance fee is extracted from all tax paid by warehouse owners. The rest goes to the cities trade budget. That maintenance fee percent may change based on how things play out, but we felt this was less confusing to manage from the city side of things. Basically warehouse owner's pay their taxes, the city gets their cut.

  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,739Administrator Achaean staff
    Tysandr said:
    Rogue options?


    You don't have to be a citizen to take a lease offered by a city, though we are discussing the possibility of making it possible to gate some leases to citizens only if that's something people would like.

    Tysandr
  • TelendriethTelendrieth Posts: 213Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it. In essence it is paying gold for increased "rift" capacity which offers some pretty good security option for large sums of commodities, which is nice. I'm curious to see the actual value that cities set as the PER limit. I'm going to assume "Much less viable" means decay timers on commodities, because I can see a lot of individuals not desiring to pay for storage of materials as they work on moving them. I'm definitely interested in seeing what part this plays in the larger plan though.

    One thing I'm curious about is why would a player choose to use this over the commodity market to store their goods? Doubly so if later down the road these warehouses sort of become the "prize" for the invading army in the war system. 
  • JarrodJarrod Posts: 3,009Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    If there's not mechanics that prevent using the comm market as storage I would be baffled.

    I feel it's safe to say the admin have thought of this.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 280Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited May 4
    Does it really offer a pretty good security option, though? Really seems to imply that, for a price, you can store your goods in a place where they can be stolen (or something along those lines) based on future war system changes.

    You're now paying for what was free before, for less security than before, as far as I can see.

    But that's all speculation until the war system updates rolls in, if it ever does. 
    TelendriethCailinNataliia
  • PuxiPuxi Posts: 526Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Micaelis said:
    You're now paying for what was free before, for less security than before, as far as I can see. 
    That isn't a bad thing, imo. I think they are addressing all things that completely remove the possibility for conflict. Next up: Ship camping.
    TorinnLii
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,739Administrator Achaean staff
    Its safe to assume its not going to play the part in the war system that you might be thinking.

    As for the commodity market, we will be making changes in that regard when we make the change that allows commodities to go directly to your warehouse on a transaction.
  • TelendriethTelendrieth Posts: 213Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Jarrod said:
    If there's not mechanics that prevent using the comm market as storage I would be baffled.

    I feel it's safe to say the admin have thought of this.
    I mean, right now you can store items in the commodity market for 0 cost, and the only caveat is that they are returned yearly if not sold. Currently there are 96,176 iron commodities stored in the market. I don't particularly think it is a -bad- thing, because that means almost 100k commodities are stored there, and not spread around the world in containers and spilled on the floor. 
  • MicaelisMicaelis Posts: 280Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited May 4
    Not necessarily a bad thing, but it would place a premium on non-com cities lease spaces, allowing them to rake in more gold with higher tax/taxper rates based on a higher safety net. Speculative again, but a Targossas/Mhaldor lease -has- to be worth less than a Cyrenian one just based on pure probability of conflict. Naturally the accumulation of wealth could make them a better target, but factions are still going to faction. 

    EDIT: Saw your comment about it not operating in the war system that we might think, so this is all probably moot. 
    Makarios
  • JarrodJarrod Posts: 3,009Member, Seafaring Liason @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jarrod said:
    If there's not mechanics that prevent using the comm market as storage I would be baffled.

    I feel it's safe to say the admin have thought of this.
    I mean, right now you can store items in the commodity market for 0 cost, and the only caveat is that they are returned yearly if not sold. Currently there are 96,176 iron commodities stored in the market. I don't particularly think it is a -bad- thing, because that means almost 100k commodities are stored there, and not spread around the world in containers and spilled on the floor. 
    You're mistaking what's currently available and what will likely change to facilitate the use of the new system.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • IsmayIsmay Posts: 536Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Arg what’s with all these horrible changes here lately? Frankly, I’m getting fed up with making everything less convenient for players. It’s getting to the point of pissing me off, I hate to say.
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaPosts: 4,801Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 4
    I think one of my main concern at the moment is housing. Saving up for housing projects, especially as OOS, can take a considerably long time with how much more difficult wood has been to get ahold of (stone's mostly doing fine). Now obviously, you can just say "well, just store your commodities in a warehouse then", but again, as an OOS house user, it's already prohibitively expensive to just save up enough. Having to have a tax on things you're saving, now, is... a bit discouraging.

    Would it be at all possible to that, before this change takes effect in June, that general OOS pricing could be looked into? I know that's kind of a niche request, but I'd appreciate it.

    Edit: Agree with a lot of what Skye is saying, too.
    "You have had an extraordinary adventure, my dear. Extraordinary! One that few people could ever imagine. Treasure it. Keep it safe and secure, tucked away in some special place in your heart. 

    But... don't spend the rest of your days chasing a ghost."
    Nataliia
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,739Administrator Achaean staff
    Skye said:
    1) Is there a limit to how much stuff can be stored in a single warehouse?

    2) " Currently, tax is pre set to 5000 gold, so if you store 12000 gold in the 3000 taxper warehouse, you will pay 20000 gold monthly." <- I hope that's RL months because holy crap. All that's going to do is make even more people continue using shopspace for warehousing. The other problem is that there are already a lot of comms in circulation with nothing concrete to spend them on. That's why a lot of us are even sitting on that many comms in the first place. I'm probably freaking out, but this feels like punishment for playing :x

    To be honest, I'm also a little bit concerned about the need to set a duration for the lease. Without any apparent way to extend a lease while it is still on-going (or indeed the fact that it needs to be manually extended at all), feels like a lot of added busywork for both city and tenant. In the event that the tenant is only able to lease from a particular city, they will have to empty out their warehouse space and hope there's a lease open to them, otherwise they revert to having to stash their comms somewhere (like a shop). This also means that the trade ministry needs to keepup with publishing leases, as if they didn't already have enough to do.

    Why not just let the leases be indefinite until the tenant defaults on payments (~2-3 years unpaid which is about as long as it takes to go unranked for not logging in), or the ministry chooses to revoke the lease (1 year notice), which they can do so for just about any reason from the tenant getting enemied, to wanting to revise the terms of the lease.



    1. There's no limit.

    2. Its in game months, but those values were mostly because small numbers are easier to look at and go "oh, ok" when it comes to helpfiles. I imagine taxper brackets will be much much larger than that if cities want to actually attract people.

  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,739Administrator Achaean staff
    Ismay said:
    Arg what’s with all these horrible changes here lately? Frankly, I’m getting fed up with making everything less convenient for players. It’s getting to the point of pissing me off, I hate to say.


    I definitely appreciate this is the painful part. Once this is out of the way there should be a lot more ways for us to add things to make playing much more convenient than it was previously.

  • SolnirSolnir Posts: 709Member ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Ismay said:
    Arg what’s with all these horrible changes here lately? Frankly, I’m getting fed up with making everything less convenient for players. It’s getting to the point of pissing me off, I hate to say.
    Rants section is that way.
    Lii
  • IsmayIsmay Posts: 536Member ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Ahh thought this was the section to weigh in on this particular change. Didn’t realize it was only for admin arse-kissing. Please pardon my blasphemy.
    Caelan
  • MinifieMinifie Posts: 1,917Member @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited May 4
    honestly I think this system will work great once all the pieces after it are in place, but it's a waiting game until then. I am glad though that the devs are trying to blitz changes for change sake. I'm definitely going to sit back and just see the next parts come into action first.

    Ismay said:
    Ahh thought this was the section to weigh in on this particular change. Didn’t realize it was only for admin arse-kissing. Please pardon my blasphemy.

    I sympathise with you ismay, I really do, but I think looking at it I can't suggest much changes without knowing the future plans ahead. I'm all for making housing and stuff better, but making them impenetrable storage hubs won't help. This will also help with issues of getting comms mailed and lost because your rift was full or a DC, as well as having people without ships having a safe storage place as well.



    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Taryius says, "Oops, thats not a foray. Thats two novices going at it in the wilderness."
    Lii
  • MakariosMakarios Posts: 1,739Administrator Achaean staff
    Ismay said:
    Ahh thought this was the section to weigh in on this particular change. Didn’t realize it was only for admin arse-kissing. Please pardon my blasphemy.


    It is, I appreciate the feedback. Criticism is always more valuable than praise.

    IsmayNataliiaTahquil
  • KarrenKarren Posts: 33Member ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'll reserve judgement until the changes are actually implemented, but, as is, most commodities in the game are already not worth mining. Having to pay any amount to store them, for any period of time, just makes them even more unattractive. 

    That said, I'll happily trade making a (very small) profit off mining for a cool war system.
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