Cities

Mathilda

wtf how did you know @Armali ???? i know i didn't approve of your membership app >:(.

Athroseilon

Mathilda said:

1) What is the World According To Twilight?

Peaceful, harmonious, everyone's friends and we're all nice people because we're all mind-controlled by Darkness.

2) What do we do to accomplish this goal?

Whatever we have to do - it's the Great Work. We do science experiments to mind-control people. We write stuff to convince people (and mind-control them). We make pretty things to seduce people (and mind-control them). We kill them if they resist (...to mind-control them).

3) What can I do for the Great Work?

One of the above. There's not one way to contribute to the Great Work -- as long as it makes people interested in the Darkness, you're good to go buddy.

4) What about non-Hashani?

Well you're in luck. Rise to prominence in your city. Then bait-and-switch their ass and declare your eternal love for Twiguy and they should be in love, too.

See above re: headcanon, unformed theology. Unless Twilight's Order is somewhere around to set the record straight...

Keorin

But -why?- Saying you think everyone should follow your god is all well and good, but you need to be able to articulate a compelling and interesting reason for it that's not just "we think he's pretty cool and trust his vision." It just sounds like it's Twilight for Twilight's sake.

Synbios

Mathilda said:

1) What is the World According To Twilight?

Peaceful, harmonious, everyone's friends and we're all nice people because we're all mind-controlled by Darkness.

2) What do we do to accomplish this goal?

Whatever we have to do - it's the Great Work. We do science experiments to mind-control people. We write stuff to convince people (and mind-control them). We make pretty things to seduce people (and mind-control them). We kill them if they resist (...to mind-control them).

3) What can I do for the Great Work?

One of the above. There's not one way to contribute to the Great Work -- as long as it makes people interested in the Darkness, you're good to go buddy.

4) What about non-Hashani?

Well you're in luck. Rise to prominence in your city. Then bait-and-switch their ass and declare your eternal love for Twiguy and they should be in love, too.

For some inexplicable reason,  I read that and thought of Hashan as the CIA turned city-state.

Asmodron

Everytime it feels Hashan is leading up to fully embrace darkness and remove the identity crisis....shit hits the fan.

Suddenly people appear screaming conspiracy and claiming Twilight is trying to enslave us. Insults are thrown, elections are tossed around, threats are given and after the mess with several citizens having quit...we go back to square 1.

It's why I eventually just gave up on change and accepted what I could.

Hataru

Asmodron said:

Kiet said:

yeah but literally all the orgs do that.

targ/mhaldor/ashtan also all outdo hashan on the ritual front by a lot. Even Eleusis does. Saying Hashan is somehow a special ritual place is meaningless if Hashan does little with it.

Hashan used to do much and more. It was very prevalent with the spiritwalkers and city rituals were conducted often.

Sadly with their dissolution it is much less prevalent. You'll find the occasional darkwalker ritual or a citizen attempting something..but it is pretty obscure.

The potential is there, but people are too busy squabbling over politics to care.

I mean having been a Shamanic Elder in that house. I can tell you, it really wasn't as prevalent as I've ever seen in Mhaldor. IDK during the batshit crazy Bluef days they did a whole bunch more I wasn't involved in (but why that was problematic, why it was out of line, why it doesn't really count imo is a conversation not for this thread), but the past is full of rose tinted glasses other wise. It was definitely more prevalent than I've seen in recent years, but when I moved from Spirit Walker leadership over to Congregation and being a Vicar etc. I almost immediately was already doing double the ritualism I was doing back in Hashan. At a lot of points the Spirit Walkers were just too small and insular, and the biggest ritualists often WEREN'T Hashani in the house or gave little to no shits about Hashan (for example, at one point I was forced back Hashani beause it was part of some backwards treaty that Shaman/SW leadership had to be Hashani even if full members weren't required to be).

A few people really loved Hashan (like Kachan), don't get me wrong, but there were more than a few times the house seriously asked to be removed from the city.

But I do miss doing a yearly sacrifice to the spirits. RIP that altar man, it was the best.

EDIT TO BE CLEAR: My only point here is Hashan can't take fucking credit for what the Shamans/Spirit Walkers did when we weren't even required to be Hashani because so many people hated Hashan.

Trey

I hated Hashan enough that when I made HL of the Merchants, I had <redacted> induct me without having to swear the oath, then immediately went CTOFF permanently and pretended I wasn't a citizen. (Not being a citizen of Hashan as leader wasn't an option at the time)

Mathilda

Athroseilon said:

Mathilda said:

1) What is the World According To Twilight?

Peaceful, harmonious, everyone's friends and we're all nice people because we're all mind-controlled by Darkness.

2) What do we do to accomplish this goal?

Whatever we have to do - it's the Great Work. We do science experiments to mind-control people. We write stuff to convince people (and mind-control them). We make pretty things to seduce people (and mind-control them). We kill them if they resist (...to mind-control them).

3) What can I do for the Great Work?

One of the above. There's not one way to contribute to the Great Work -- as long as it makes people interested in the Darkness, you're good to go buddy.

4) What about non-Hashani?

Well you're in luck. Rise to prominence in your city. Then bait-and-switch their ass and declare your eternal love for Twiguy and they should be in love, too.

See above re: headcanon, unformed theology. Unless Twilight's Order is somewhere around to set the record straight...

I just did,

Mathilda

Keorin said:

But -why?- Saying you think everyone should follow your god is all well and good, but you need to be able to articulate a compelling and interesting reason for it that's not just "we think he's pretty cool and trust his vision." It just sounds like it's Twilight for Twilight's sake.

Keorin said:

But -why?- Saying you think everyone should follow your god is all well and good, but you need to be able to articulate a compelling and interesting reason for it that's not just "we think he's pretty cool and trust his vision." It just sounds like it's Twilight for Twilight's sake.

Well didn't want to relay all of the information here. The above is just a gist of the whole thing. Darkness is a fully-formed ideology.

Plus I think the deeper stuff are best discussed IG.

Anyway, I am commuting, so I can't post longer stuff at the moment. But I will check back in a few hours and if there's a lot of interest still, sure, I'll go in-depth.

Hataru

Trey said:

I hated Hashan enough that when I made HL of the Merchants, I had <redacted> induct me without having to swear the oath, then immediately went CTOFF permanently and pretended I wasn't a citizen. (Not being a citizen of Hashan as leader wasn't an option at the time)

Do you see what you've all done? You've made me and Trey agree on something. You should be fucking ashamed.

Nazihk

Ozmatiah said:

I don't know that I accept the reason that Karren, Vender, Nazihk, Mathilda, Aesgar, and whoever left Hashan because 'others were not willing to die' It just feels like a cop out to me, when I think the identity issue is much bigger.  

I left because the combat environment was bad, and it's bad for multiple reasons. One is the lack of a good factional identity, which gives the citizens no common cause to rally around. Another is that the general attitude towards death means that citizens aren't as willing to participate in losing fights, and losing fights is how you learn to win them.

Kiet said:

I honestly am at a loss on how to 'fix' Hashan. Like what possibly is there to be done, other than embracing an actual ethos? Hashan doesn't want to embrace Twilight, fine. But what else is there left to embrace? Every archetype is kind of taken.

Go the whole 'No Gods, No Masters' route. Object to all Divine interference. Turn the Wellspring into a force capable of letting them hold their own against Gods. Instead of Orders, they can have some kind of secret scientist society that builds alchemical 'shrines', etc. Want to be the Science City? Then do that shit hardcore imo.

Reyson

Coming of age ceremony is getting a lab coat and sticking your fingers into a power socket so your hair gets all frizzy and stands up on end. 

I like it. 

Hataru

Nazihk said:

Kiet said:

I honestly am at a loss on how to 'fix' Hashan. Like what possibly is there to be done, other than embracing an actual ethos? Hashan doesn't want to embrace Twilight, fine. But what else is there left to embrace? Every archetype is kind of taken.

Go the whole 'No Gods, No Masters' route. Object to all Divine interference. Turn the Wellspring into a force capable of letting them hold their own against Gods. Instead of Orders, they can have some kind of secret scientist society that builds alchemical 'shrines', etc. Want to be the Science City? Then do that shit hardcore imo.

Oh man I have no idea how this would work functionally or how it could even be worked into the rest of Achaea but if this were possible, that would be amazing and it would give Achaea some really great variety on the city front.

Other cities would inevitably lose people to such an idea. And I dislike losing the Darkness role as a whole, but man, if Hashan's gonna reject their founding ideals, reject finding a middle ground. May as well go full tilt.

Mathilda

I would love No Masters Hashan. Anything better than the inertia of the present.

Kiet

That'd be a huge step up and be genuinely intriguing, yes. Hard to justify for a city founded by Twilight, though, and I imagine he'd just blow up the city at that point.

Penwize

Kiet said:

That'd be a huge step up and be genuinely intriguing, yes. Hard to justify for a city founded by Twilight, though, and I imagine he'd just blow up the city at that point.

Him trying to blow it up but them using the power of the Wellspring to stop that would actually be a really interesting catalyst to build the city up.  Probably wouldn't happen, but damn that'd be cool.

Jacen

I floated that idea a long time ago with Penwize, and he convinced me that it just couldn't work, for several reasons. You need a healthy respect for the gods in the game, both because they're administrators, and also because they're the big movers of the world. There'd be no god to spur the city into action. Twilight and Ourania, even with all the opposition and anti-theocracy of the city, when they ask for something to get done, a good chunk of the city rallies to do it. See the new Obelisk, that Darkenwood conflict with Eleusis, the moonstone thing with Ourania and Tasur'ke, etc. You just can't replace their ability to call the city to action. The end result would be a Hashan more apathetic to the world than its ever been before.

Penwize

I mean, all of that junk right now is demonstrably not working, though.  Ashtan seems to be trying a variant of the no-divine route with the Chaos Court, who's to say it wouldn't work for Hashan?

Jacen

Is the Chaos Court any different from a divine, except in name? They're the ultimate authority on Chaos, the (Chaos-inclined) Ashtani follow their orders. Is that really any different?

Jonathin

It's an interesting idea at the very least.

Penwize

If you need an NPC to rally behind, it wouldn't be hard for the admin to supply one.  Maybe a member of the Cauda Pavonis gets cast out, but finds something interesting about the Wellspring and guides Hashan to understanding its power.  Maybe Yudhi decides to make Hashan his summer home and the Wellspring his private bath.  I don't know, I'm not an expert here!  There's potential if they wanted to go that route with it, if the general feeling is the current route is not working.

Having Twilight as an angry, direct adversary could even be interesting itself, with the Darkwalkers trying to reclaim control and all the anti-Darkies being vindicated and all that jazz.

Alyxeri

Penwize said:

Having Twilight as an angry, direct adversary could even be interesting itself, with the Darkwalkers trying to reclaim control and all the anti-Darkies being vindicated and all that jazz.

Or it'll just result in people being dicks and casting them from the city for "trying to ruin the city," or whatever other bullshit excuse they can come up with for having RP that wasn't the exact same as theirs.

Not that that ever happens in IRE games

Penwize

Thus giving the Darkwalkers an even better reason for secrecy and deception! Working with the reality of the situation, instead of against it.

Mathilda

Hashan can go that route. Different denizens throughout the city would study the wellspring, and if the godmins want to do something with Hashan, they can just use the mobs. OOC, the godmins and the players would still work together, but via a different vehicle.

Hataru

And if it fails they're conveniently close to the water.

Nazihk

Kiet said:

That'd be a huge step up and be genuinely intriguing, yes. Hard to justify for a city founded by Twilight, though, and I imagine he'd just blow up the city at that point.

It's super easy to justify for a Twilight city because Twilight is, well, Twilight.

There's all kinds of ways you can hook the manipulative and secretive God of Darkness into the heart of a secret society of alchemists. Manipulating Hashan into using the Wellspring to attack his enemies without having to actually expose himself to conflict is totally the kind of thing that fits him.

IMO, this kind of thing is perfect for him because Twilight's role and theme just don't work for a public face; he is much more suited to playing the puppetmaster behind the scenes.

Penwize said:

Thus giving the Darkwalkers an even better reason for secrecy and deception! 

Exactly.

Asmodron

Hataru said:

Asmodron said:

Kiet said:

yeah but literally all the orgs do that.

targ/mhaldor/ashtan also all outdo hashan on the ritual front by a lot. Even Eleusis does. Saying Hashan is somehow a special ritual place is meaningless if Hashan does little with it.

Hashan used to do much and more. It was very prevalent with the spiritwalkers and city rituals were conducted often.

Sadly with their dissolution it is much less prevalent. You'll find the occasional darkwalker ritual or a citizen attempting something..but it is pretty obscure.

The potential is there, but people are too busy squabbling over politics to care.

I mean having been a Shamanic Elder in that house. I can tell you, it really wasn't as prevalent as I've ever seen in Mhaldor. IDK during the batshit crazy Bluef days they did a whole bunch more I wasn't involved in (but why that was problematic, why it was out of line, why it doesn't really count imo is a conversation not for this thread), but the past is full of rose tinted glasses other wise. It was definitely more prevalent than I've seen in recent years, but when I moved from Spirit Walker leadership over to Congregation and being a Vicar etc. I almost immediately was already doing double the ritualism I was doing back in Hashan. At a lot of points the Spirit Walkers were just too small and insular, and the biggest ritualists often WEREN'T Hashani in the house or gave little to no shits about Hashan (for example, at one point I was forced back Hashani beause it was part of some backwards treaty that Shaman/SW leadership had to be Hashani even if full members weren't required to be).

A few people really loved Hashan (like Kachan), don't get me wrong, but there were more than a few times the house seriously asked to be removed from the city.

But I do miss doing a yearly sacrifice to the spirits. RIP that altar man, it was the best.

EDIT TO BE CLEAR: My only point here is Hashan can't take fucking credit for what the Shamans/Spirit Walkers did when we weren't even required to be Hashani because so many people hated Hashan.

Ah sorry but your name isnt familiar XD..roughly how long ago were you a member? Were you around for the Wlo days?

I do not doubt nor disagree that the house at times wanted. I can recall a time for each Hashani house wanting out.

I also dont disagree of mhaldor's ritual potential.

I'm merely saying Hashan was built as a construct of ritual power. It is an actual literal part of it. Mysticism is found all throughout it's history..it's just constantly been drowned by politics.

Kiet

rip at talking about the shamans and not recognizing hataru's name

On the hashan thing: now would be the best time ever to try and cast off the divine, at any rate. The Tsol'teth basically proved you can kill them and make your own if you want to.

Hataru

I mean your name isn't familiar to me either, but that's sort of irrelevant I was on the Elder Council for both the Shamans and Spirit Walkers for 100 years ish (I don't have good records of exactly what year I left for Mhaldor). Let alone that I kept in very good contact with many Spirit Walkers after I left when I was Viera's heir because I told her it was Bluef or me, one of us had to go. Which went real well real well  for the house, as we all know.

(Edit is me flubbing enter for submit on my phone, sorry) either way - you recognizing my name or not is irrelevant to my point so. 

(Edit 2 cause fuck me trying to phone one handed I guess, my finger needs to heal already) The point is is that you're basing Hashan's mysticism on something that for a good part of its history was almost solely the result of an insular group of people who a majority of really wanted nothing to do with Hashan.

Mathilda

Yeah, and that was problematic. Good riddance to Houses that wanted an out, anyway.