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  • Maybe we'll get back there three years down the road. If they learn anything from Kasa it'll be a pretty sweet ride. I'm beginning to feel like I'm going to need to break out sock puppets to explain why the Order failed. I'll just be here, doing alchemy stuff and trying to set Eleusis and the Merchants on fire. Maybe if I'm lucky I can get some kind of contraption down to the Wellspring or something.
  • Ozmatiah said:
    If not, I can always go to one of the most powerful cities, and take credit for their success, right ?  (I am totally kidding :p  )


    The best part is that you can definitely do this. The strongest cities right now are strong because they support their players who actually go out and do things. It's a positive feedback cycle. You wouldn't be 'taking' credit, you'll be earning it.
     <3 
  • Mathilda said:
    And yet whenever things do happen, you turn it all around and go against the players that make these things happen.

    But isn't Regi one of those players that makes things happen, and consistently made things happen?   Oh wait are you talking about yourself in this example ?  There are/was plenty of Hashani that work really hard, having an active Order should not make them any less important. 
  • Asmodron said:

    "The Triad represented a guiding force for self-awareness and growth. The Moon that guides your path. The Darkness that bestows truths and understanding. The Dreams that inspire for greater works."

    A bit paraphrased. It was a simple concept based on cultivating the self and your community.
    This may be an accurate interpretation of the Night, but I hate it. Its so vanilla, meaningless, and boring.

    The whole coup thing really irritates me. I mean, I wasn't around for it, so my interpretation could be very wrong, but a couple of things frustrate me. One, I'm not even sure why we're calling it a coup, that's literally Hashan's process for electing a new Seneschal. Has happened several times in history where the Seneschal was blindsided by it or disagreed with it. Vayne -> Xadzia (if I'm remembering right) pops into mind for that. Two, it was one particular order member who revealed the "coup" to Regi through what looked like a pre-scripted converstaion, starting up the whole political mess, and the subsequently leaving Hashan.

    I guess the real problem is that for number 2, there's technically nothing wrong with it, but it'll always be an attractive option to expose secrets and undermine the secret society, which means with respect to Darkness, Hashan will always shoot itself in the foot.
    image
  • @jacen every part of me wants to believe that Twilight didn't kick them out, and it's all a big show and folks like Mathilda are about to bring Targossas to it's knees. To me, that would have been pretty epic, if all of the Darkwalkers were "removed' and relocated else where, and the problems they could cause there, I mean like you said cause problems, light the fire, and then leave.  They could do that elsewhere, and then comeback to Hashan.   you hear me @Karren come.back.to.hashan.  :)
  • @jacen It's only called a coup because they acted like it was a coup, quite frankly. Regi claimed it was, and the term just kinda stuck since as I said previously there's not really a mechanism for political takeover. If they had pressed the fact that it was, in fact, the lawful turning over of power from one Seneschal to another for banal reasons things probably would have gone much better for them.
  • edited October 2017
    Ozmatiah said:

    But isn't Regi one of those players that makes things happen, and consistently made things happen?   Oh wait are you talking about yourself in this example ?  There are/was plenty of Hashani that work really hard, having an active Order should not make them any less important. 
    Well...Regi is a cool guy, but he's been Seneschal for some time now and Hashan has only continued to sink.

    And no, you can't really blame the coup on this one, because even after that debacle, Hashan has lost people (Karren and Aesgar come to mind) to other cities who do actually do things.

    edit: And I absolutely love Twiguy to bits, but as a whole, Targossas just functions way, way better than Hashan for the sole reason that it embraces its identity. It makes it easy for people to back the things they do, to ignite excitement in its players, and to attract converts from other cities.
     <3 
  • Trust me, I agree with a lot of the points being made.  I just refuse to let go that the coup was not needed,  and I believe the ripples still effect Hashan today.  That is not to say the result wouldn't not have been the same, I can concede that easily. Imagine if Tyamat and friends gave a pitch to Regi and the city, and then we all said pound sand.  Yeah who knows what would have happened then, a different yet the same outcome of people leaving the city, or going dormant?

    I also admit it must be a combination of easy and awesome to have a broad unifying thought like every other city. It's also a slam dunk to say active divine makes a difference.


  • Asmodron said:
    Nazihk said:
    If you think the Night would work as a factional identity, then please do the following:

    Explain to me in 3-5 sentences(suitable for HELP HASHAN) what the Night is and what being a follower of the Night entails. Assume I know absolutely nothing about Achaea and have never heard of Ourania or Twilight.
    I will explain it below:

    "The Triad represented a guiding force for self-awareness and growth. The Moon that guides your path. The Darkness that bestows truths and understanding. The Dreams that inspire for greater works."

    A bit paraphrased. It was a simple concept based on cultivating the self and your community.
    Doesn't tell me anything about what it means to be a follower of the Night, it's just a bunch of vague spiritual self-help book shit about being inspired by the moon.
  • HataruHataru Midwest USA
    Having an active divine is amazing (shout out to @Sartan making me cry on the daily from all the attention and hardwork he gives us cause like, after literally years of no divine and poor Tecton having to handle all of our crap this is like, honestly, probably the best relationship I've played through with a city having a divine - though the amount of attention Indrani gave the Shamans/Spirit Walkers is a close second). However, if you can't give your city a purpose without one, you're doing it wrong.

    Mhaldor definitely has it easier (activine divine or not) because who we worship is mandated (more so than ever right now, we don't even allow Aegeans etc. any more like we used to). However, there is no reason you have to demand an active divine to give yourself a purpose. Now, does that sometimes suck? Yes.

    Keresis coming back, flipping the switch on all her neutral members and having to be the one who personally handled all the kicking since I was Avatar fucking sucked. So yes, sometimes your work is for naught. You do this work to keep shit going, the divine comes back and either game-needs or RP-changes mean that some of the shit you did went down the drain. But you can't blame having an inactive divine on no action on the behalf of the order. Nor should it be an excuse to let a city squander in having no image.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
  • @micaelis one of the better posts I've read, and really agree with, spot on.  However, I don't know that it's wanting to be spoon fed, or wanting someone to try what is on my spoon. It's a far different version of apathy and complacency I think. And a similar statement lines up with what @hataru said, there really isn't much stopping us from making progress, if we bound it in things we are completely capable of that don't need divine assistance, completely agree. And a ton of the actions still lie in the players hands, but let me give you an example.

    I have attended more Targossas sermons than Hashani sermons, sure sure active gods watching versus not, but with my premise of things that can be done with out help, that is definitely one of them.  Yet, I'm not even exactly positive who the Order heads of Ourania, or Valnurana, and those would be the people that in game I would expect to help drive my understanding of each of their respective realms. 

    Short take away though, and I know I can be better about this (instead of saying welp, I'll just go hunt again) is trying to make the changes we can least for awareness, involvement, and inclusion in the city. Things that really are missing as we are to prone to work against each other.



  • There can really be a wall if the leaders of your respective organizations are hush hush in most things. I know Kasa isn't around as often as he used to be, though I think he's making a return, and I'm mostly ignorant of the other two Orders you mentioned as well so I wouldn't really think they offer much in the way of potential for you.

    Often I find people are scared to really make an effort out of fear of "overstepping" into someone's else's territory. It's a valid fear and one that usually results in some friction 50% of the time. The other 50% maybe you can ignite interest in that area that wasn't previously there. The takeaway, however, is that no matter the consequence friction was created, which is really what you're looking for here. 

    The way I see it is, if you're unhappy with the path being presented by the leadership of the organizations you turn to for RP creation, then usurp them. Take it over. If they fight back, well there you go you just Frankenstein'd a dead organization. If not, you're poised and ready as a city to take that organization back over for the general populace.

    I don't mean any of this in a "You're lazy, have to do it yourself, get to work" sort of way, just offering constructive feedback based on my personal experiences in leadership and how I've learned and grown throughout the years. It can be difficult to really start the ball rolling, and fear of failure really holds so many of us back, but if you're willing to take a leap then I'll hold your hand on the way down. Then, as Deucalion burns us both alive, we can laugh hysterically at what a great fall it was. 
  • Not having an active divine definitely hurts, but that's not even half of Hashan's problem. We've had active divine many times over the years, and even (I think?) multiple occasions of having an active Ourania and Twilight at the same time. Neither of our two divine have a relationship with Hashan like the Bloodsworn to Targ, or Sartan to Mhaldor, or Artemis and Gaia to Eleusis.

    Micaelis said:
    Long story short you're not going to be given a ladder to climb out with. You have to create one yourself...

    If you want to create a better Hashan, then just do it via RP.
    Statements like this really irritate me. They really undervalue the efforts that many players have made over the past fifteen years. How many years did Vayne labor to do this? Or Alcreadia, or Hellen, or Verily, or Fen, or Tyamat, or how much longer will Kasa keep going? Shallam didn't create their own ladder. Eleusis didn't make their own ladder. 

    I've no intent to undermine any Targ player's contribution to Targ, but I guarantee that it isn't done under the same opposition as a Hashan player's contribution to Hashan. The Big Four have direction, goals. They have the benefit of right and wrong being objective, rather than subjective. You can't model your political career on an anti-Aurora platform, its objectively wrong to do so in Targossas. Hashan has no such limitations, and no political upstart can be quelled as easily as it can elsewhere. The field is wide-freaking open in Hashan.
    image
  • That may be true, and given that my statements are a vast understatement and in no way reflect the work and drive necessary to see it through, but what you're facing is resistance at the player level. Shallam was a convoluted mess of conflicting Divine-given mandates and resistance that filtered to the player level, but Hashan was given a platform and solidly rejected it. Perhaps that's right or wrong, but it was a decision made and a decision that should have been made with a plan in mind.

    If offered a choice to walk down path A or B in a RP game you choose one. Perhaps you're wrong, perhaps A/B is harder than B/A, but what you can't do is stand at the fork and stare at it for 200 years.  
  • What platform did we reject?
    image
  • Jacen said:
    What platform did we reject?
    Darkness, not that it was rejected without reason (mostly the people). If you removed the idiocy of the people involved, however, you have a fascinating concept to use as a foundation for the future. 

    The issue as it appeared to me, given that I'm an outsider in this, is that a complete turnover to Darkness would be subjugation to the Darkwalkers, specifically the members therein. I can see why this would be a problem for longstanding Hashani who just don't want to bend over, but on the other hand you're not really going to get a better platform. With the Darkwalker problem (mostly) being a problem of the past, however, now seems like the perfect time to explore that path to me. Could be wrong, but I know that if I were to ever go Hashani, something I've honestly considered, it would be for Darkness and Darkness alone.

    Darkness is the allure, it's the 'it' factor. Anyone with an eye for RP understands that the original Darkness texts, works, and mythos are absolutely top tier and it's one of the richest RP's you could follow, as far as potential goes.
  • I don't feel darkness was rejected, but I guess it depends what you mean.  If you mean that Twilight had to remove so many people from the Order because they were not representing Him properly, then I would agree, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us were against it.  I know myself for example was just staring at the door wondering if I should open it.  This is especially a rough call when its an Order V Order battle, and you wonder if you should be pitching in or with the only justification being He is the patron. I feel that people older than I were thinking well I like my god, and all that, it's the triad, and from Oz's perspective it was almost portrayed that 2/3rds of the triad didn't matter anymore.  I mean, I am sure Aurora still has an influence right? And followers of Deucalion are not trying to run everything because she isn't active?

    I will agree though that having never been Hashani before the Sundering, it was really clear to see that some people that enjoyed, and were stuck in the past.  And generally there is nothing wrong with this, until it impedes the progress of the city and the people.



  • HataruHataru Midwest USA
    Jacen said:
     We've had active divine many times over the years, and even (I think?) multiple occasions of having an active Ourania and Twilight at the same time. Neither of our two divine have a relationship with Hashan like the Bloodsworn to Targ, or Sartan to Mhaldor, or Artemis and Gaia to Eleusis.
    At least three instances of having both, at least two of having all three.

    And the last statement here is categorically false unless you want to ignore the first few OOC years of Hashan existing. While neither may have that relationship NOW, they absolutely did under the first Twilight minimally.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
  • Micaelis said:
    Darkness is the allure, it's the 'it' factor. Anyone with an eye for RP understands that the original Darkness texts, works, and mythos are absolutely top tier and it's one of the richest RP's you could follow, as far as potential goes.
    To be brutally honest, the only 'potential' in Darkness I ever saw was the potential of a Rorschach inkblot where you can read whatever you like into the quasi-esoteric pseudophilosophical ramblings about Twilight Trismegistus. "Those who have eyes to see, LOOK. Those who have ears to hear, LISTEN." Great. Now, possibly the original Darkness texts, works, and mythos are kept secret because Darkness Is All About The Secrets, but that's just another problem.

    I maintain that Hashan-as-Fallen-London would be a great improvement. Technological anti-theistic progress with spooky overtones. There's potential there, both for conflict within the city and between it and other cities--and it allows Hashan to pursue its relatively modest goals. No need for world domination; just expansion and the elimination of any potential threats to the growth and progress of the city.
  • edited October 2017
    I will repeat: Darkness has texts, works, and mythos that are accessible to the general public.

    Edit: Reading over the Hashani posts in this thread, I think the issue is very clear: you have people pulling the city into too many opposing directions. Just bite the bullet. Choose one, and demolish all others. Bring the malcontnets in line. Boot them from the city if you have to. You already kicked out all the Darkwalkers from leadership, and the Darkwalkers themselves are at their weakest. This is the opportune time to do this.
     <3 
  • Mathilda said:
    I will repeat: Darkness has texts, works, and mythos that are accessible to the general public.

    Edit: Reading over the Hashani posts in this thread, I think the issue is very clear: you have people pulling the city into too many opposing directions. Just bite the bullet. Choose one, and demolish all others. Bring the malcontnets in line. Boot them from the city if you have to. You already kicked out all the Darkwalkers from leadership, and the Darkwalkers themselves are at their weakest. This is the opportune time to do this.
    Yes, but they're pretty terrible, so I was giving the order the benefit of the doubt.

    It's fine to have inter-city discord as long as people accept that the backstabbing is going to happen and consider it part of the city. Clandestine meetings and knives in the back are perfect for a Court of Shadows. The only reason I won't be scheming to impose my desires on the city is that it's wildly out of character for who I play.
  • Hataru said:
    Jacen said:
     We've had active divine many times over the years, and even (I think?) multiple occasions of having an active Ourania and Twilight at the same time. Neither of our two divine have a relationship with Hashan like the Bloodsworn to Targ, or Sartan to Mhaldor, or Artemis and Gaia to Eleusis.
    At least three instances of having both, at least two of having all three.

    And the last statement here is categorically false unless you want to ignore the first few OOC years of Hashan existing. While neither may have that relationship NOW, they absolutely did under the first Twilight minimally.
    If you're gonna dig back to 1999 then I'll let you have that one, but that doesn't change anything about my assertion.
    image
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo Domingo
    I sort of feel that for something like Darkness to work on the faction level, a stricter level of RP would need to be enforced across Achaea. I mean,  Evil, Chaos, Good, and Nature are simple to grasp, simple to push for. Simple for people to become immersed in and simple for people to act on.  Darkness is misdirection, secrets, guile, and lies, but for the most part people here refuse to lose. They refuse to lose when mechanics are involved, and they refuse to lose even harder when there are no mechanics involved, when they must be good players and allow that the other side has pulled one completely over them. 

    Even on games that are RP-enforced such is difficult to accomplish. In a game with non-enforced RP as this, people will do anything not simply to not lose. They will filter secrets out, they will act on ooc information, they will ruin it not just for the people in the opposite faction but for the people in their own faction who are just trying to go along with things.

    That came a bit rant-ish, but it is nonetheless how I feel, and why I feel an alternative to Darkness would be the best solution city-wise.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

  • HataruHataru Midwest USA
    Jacen said:
    Hataru said:
    Jacen said:
     We've had active divine many times over the years, and even (I think?) multiple occasions of having an active Ourania and Twilight at the same time. Neither of our two divine have a relationship with Hashan like the Bloodsworn to Targ, or Sartan to Mhaldor, or Artemis and Gaia to Eleusis.
    At least three instances of having both, at least two of having all three.

    And the last statement here is categorically false unless you want to ignore the first few OOC years of Hashan existing. While neither may have that relationship NOW, they absolutely did under the first Twilight minimally.
    If you're gonna dig back to 1999 then I'll let you have that one, but that doesn't change anything about my assertion.
    1999? More like at least until 2008...and there have been several periods (like when Vayne was Seneschal) in the 2010s where it was true as well. Don't overexaggerate just to try and be right.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
  • edited October 2017
    Pre-2009 was before I started playing, and Twilights order worldburned Hashan sometime before then, so I can't imagine that twilight was to Hashan then as the Bloodsworn are to Targossas now. It certainly wasn't at anytime since I've been playing, which would include Vayne's stints as Seneschal. It was certainly a high point, but still, far different.

    ETA: I think I'm not being clear in terms of the divines relationship with their city. What I'm getting at, is that if you disagree with a Bloodsworn, you don't belong in Targossas. If you disagree with Sartan, you don't belong in Mhaldor. I've never seen a Hashan where you couldn't openly oppose Twilight. It might not be the popular platform at various (few) points in history, but it wasn't the blasphemy that it would currently be in Targ, Mhaldor, or Eleusis
    image
  • edited October 2017
    I always did find it hilarious that you can basically flip Twilight as a Hashani and actually be praised for it.

    edit: 'hilarious' = 'hilariously terrible'
     <3 
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