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Comments
But isn't Regi one of those players that makes things happen, and consistently made things happen? Oh wait are you talking about yourself in this example ? There are/was plenty of Hashani that work really hard, having an active Order should not make them any less important.
The whole coup thing really irritates me. I mean, I wasn't around for it, so my interpretation could be very wrong, but a couple of things frustrate me. One, I'm not even sure why we're calling it a coup, that's literally Hashan's process for electing a new Seneschal. Has happened several times in history where the Seneschal was blindsided by it or disagreed with it. Vayne -> Xadzia (if I'm remembering right) pops into mind for that. Two, it was one particular order member who revealed the "coup" to Regi through what looked like a pre-scripted converstaion, starting up the whole political mess, and the subsequently leaving Hashan.
I guess the real problem is that for number 2, there's technically nothing wrong with it, but it'll always be an attractive option to expose secrets and undermine the secret society, which means with respect to Darkness, Hashan will always shoot itself in the foot.
And no, you can't really blame the coup on this one, because even after that debacle, Hashan has lost people (Karren and Aesgar come to mind) to other cities who do actually do things.
edit: And I absolutely love Twiguy to bits, but as a whole, Targossas just functions way, way better than Hashan for the sole reason that it embraces its identity. It makes it easy for people to back the things they do, to ignite excitement in its players, and to attract converts from other cities.
I also admit it must be a combination of easy and awesome to have a broad unifying thought like every other city. It's also a slam dunk to say active divine makes a difference.
It can be disheartening to have grand ideas that you think would be great, but the admin aren't going to just hand you an atomic bomb and let you have fun. The core of Achaean gameplay is at the root level, but you're trying to get to the top of the tree by divine intervention.
To this same end, speaking for Hashan, are you hamstrung by not having one? Marginally, sure, but if you start a grass roots campaign of any consequence as far as RP goes then the Garden as a whole, and not just Twilight, will step in and bear the reward.
A lack of an active Divine may remove some of the more mechanics-heavy sides of RP in day-to-day life, but as far as overarching player-driven story lines go they aren't the end all be all.
Long story short you're not going to be given a ladder to climb out with. You have to create one yourself, and I'm all for this. I've contacted Hashani on multiple occasions trying to do something, as Kasa and Regi can attest to, and attempts are being made. But Twilight being dormant isn't the issue, nor would him being active solve your problem. Ashtan had an active Aegis following Farrah's Ashtan Adventure (trademark) and there was never a response from that to this day.
If you want to create a better Hashan, then just do it via RP. Mhaldor and Targossas are poised and in great positions to be your catalyst, to give you the conflict from which the phoenix rises. It doesn't have to be about raids or stompings, nor does it have to be overly complex. Just begin at the beginning and, with time, you'll find suddenly that I have to bribe Mathilda and Karren to not return home.
To be clear, I really respect the people involved for trying to make something happen, but they made some basic political errors, and got burned for it. The city elected a majority of Darkwalkers to their council without much fuss - I'd hesitate to use the failed coup as an example of the city's feelings towards Twilight at large.
Mhaldor definitely has it easier (activine divine or not) because who we worship is mandated (more so than ever right now, we don't even allow Aegeans etc. any more like we used to). However, there is no reason you have to demand an active divine to give yourself a purpose. Now, does that sometimes suck? Yes.
Keresis coming back, flipping the switch on all her neutral members and having to be the one who personally handled all the kicking since I was Avatar fucking sucked. So yes, sometimes your work is for naught. You do this work to keep shit going, the divine comes back and either game-needs or RP-changes mean that some of the shit you did went down the drain. But you can't blame having an inactive divine on no action on the behalf of the order. Nor should it be an excuse to let a city squander in having no image.
I have attended more Targossas sermons than Hashani sermons, sure sure active gods watching versus not, but with my premise of things that can be done with out help, that is definitely one of them. Yet, I'm not even exactly positive who the Order heads of Ourania, or Valnurana, and those would be the people that in game I would expect to help drive my understanding of each of their respective realms.
Short take away though, and I know I can be better about this (instead of saying welp, I'll just go hunt again) is trying to make the changes we can least for awareness, involvement, and inclusion in the city. Things that really are missing as we are to prone to work against each other.
Remember old Ashtan? They were all over the place with Gods coming and going. Occultists rocked their own RP, the Ashura were just let's be the best monks ever, the shadowsnakes did their thing... That also worked. You can have an effective city where everyone doesn't agree, long as they are doing cool stuff, their own thing and contributing to the whole.
Often I find people are scared to really make an effort out of fear of "overstepping" into someone's else's territory. It's a valid fear and one that usually results in some friction 50% of the time. The other 50% maybe you can ignite interest in that area that wasn't previously there. The takeaway, however, is that no matter the consequence friction was created, which is really what you're looking for here.
The way I see it is, if you're unhappy with the path being presented by the leadership of the organizations you turn to for RP creation, then usurp them. Take it over. If they fight back, well there you go you just Frankenstein'd a dead organization. If not, you're poised and ready as a city to take that organization back over for the general populace.
I don't mean any of this in a "You're lazy, have to do it yourself, get to work" sort of way, just offering constructive feedback based on my personal experiences in leadership and how I've learned and grown throughout the years. It can be difficult to really start the ball rolling, and fear of failure really holds so many of us back, but if you're willing to take a leap then I'll hold your hand on the way down. Then, as Deucalion burns us both alive, we can laugh hysterically at what a great fall it was.
Micaelis said: Statements like this really irritate me. They really undervalue the efforts that many players have made over the past fifteen years. How many years did Vayne labor to do this? Or Alcreadia, or Hellen, or Verily, or Fen, or Tyamat, or how much longer will Kasa keep going? Shallam didn't create their own ladder. Eleusis didn't make their own ladder.
I've no intent to undermine any Targ player's contribution to Targ, but I guarantee that it isn't done under the same opposition as a Hashan player's contribution to Hashan. The Big Four have direction, goals. They have the benefit of right and wrong being objective, rather than subjective. You can't model your political career on an anti-Aurora platform, its objectively wrong to do so in Targossas. Hashan has no such limitations, and no political upstart can be quelled as easily as it can elsewhere. The field is wide-freaking open in Hashan.
If offered a choice to walk down path A or B in a RP game you choose one. Perhaps you're wrong, perhaps A/B is harder than B/A, but what you can't do is stand at the fork and stare at it for 200 years.
The issue as it appeared to me, given that I'm an outsider in this, is that a complete turnover to Darkness would be subjugation to the Darkwalkers, specifically the members therein. I can see why this would be a problem for longstanding Hashani who just don't want to bend over, but on the other hand you're not really going to get a better platform. With the Darkwalker problem (mostly) being a problem of the past, however, now seems like the perfect time to explore that path to me. Could be wrong, but I know that if I were to ever go Hashani, something I've honestly considered, it would be for Darkness and Darkness alone.
Darkness is the allure, it's the 'it' factor. Anyone with an eye for RP understands that the original Darkness texts, works, and mythos are absolutely top tier and it's one of the richest RP's you could follow, as far as potential goes.
I will agree though that having never been Hashani before the Sundering, it was really clear to see that some people that enjoyed, and were stuck in the past. And generally there is nothing wrong with this, until it impedes the progress of the city and the people.
And the last statement here is categorically false unless you want to ignore the first few OOC years of Hashan existing. While neither may have that relationship NOW, they absolutely did under the first Twilight minimally.
I maintain that Hashan-as-Fallen-London would be a great improvement. Technological anti-theistic progress with spooky overtones. There's potential there, both for conflict within the city and between it and other cities--and it allows Hashan to pursue its relatively modest goals. No need for world domination; just expansion and the elimination of any potential threats to the growth and progress of the city.
Edit: Reading over the Hashani posts in this thread, I think the issue is very clear: you have people pulling the city into too many opposing directions. Just bite the bullet. Choose one, and demolish all others. Bring the malcontnets in line. Boot them from the city if you have to. You already kicked out all the Darkwalkers from leadership, and the Darkwalkers themselves are at their weakest. This is the opportune time to do this.
It's fine to have inter-city discord as long as people accept that the backstabbing is going to happen and consider it part of the city. Clandestine meetings and knives in the back are perfect for a Court of Shadows. The only reason I won't be scheming to impose my desires on the city is that it's wildly out of character for who I play.
Even on games that are RP-enforced such is difficult to accomplish. In a game with non-enforced RP as this, people will do anything not simply to not lose. They will filter secrets out, they will act on ooc information, they will ruin it not just for the people in the opposite faction but for the people in their own faction who are just trying to go along with things.
That came a bit rant-ish, but it is nonetheless how I feel, and why I feel an alternative to Darkness would be the best solution city-wise.
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.
ETA: I think I'm not being clear in terms of the divines relationship with their city. What I'm getting at, is that if you disagree with a Bloodsworn, you don't belong in Targossas. If you disagree with Sartan, you don't belong in Mhaldor. I've never seen a Hashan where you couldn't openly oppose Twilight. It might not be the popular platform at various (few) points in history, but it wasn't the blasphemy that it would currently be in Targ, Mhaldor, or Eleusis
edit: 'hilarious' = 'hilariously terrible'