Cities

Hataru

Mathilda said:

Yeah, and that was problematic. Good riddance to Houses that wanted an out, anyway.

100% agree. It was always problematic how bad the Spirit Walkers wanted out in the early-house days, it caused a hefty amount of drama. A hefty amount. And a lot of that was rooted in Twilight being gone and the Spirit Walkers really aligning with Indrani and just not having a place there. Ultimately more than a century later (lets not talk about some years there) it benefitted the SW to have stayed, but ultimately, it was another house that sort of had an initial idea tha changed because a Divine was gone and ended up having no real place in the city it was in (which is why it was good we could be citizens elsewhere at the time - though most remained rogue, we had a few Ashtani and 2-3 Mhaldorians and I would have been Mhaldorian and Spirit Walker if that rule hadn't change/had Viera not picked me as heir).

It was 100% problematic, I just hate to see people nostalgia-glasses like the mysticism was driven by Hashan and not the house.

Asmodron

Hataru said:

I mean your name isn't familiar to me either, but that's sort of irrelevant I was on the Elder Council for both the Shamans and Spirit Walkers for 100 years ish (I don't have good records of exactly what year I left for Mhaldor). Let alone that I kept in very good contact with many Spirit Walkers after I left when I was Viera's heir because I told her it was Bluef or me, one of us had to go. Which went real well real well  for the house, as we all know.

(Edit is me flubbing enter for submit on my phone, sorry) either way - you recognizing my name or not is irrelevant to my point so. 

(Edit 2 cause fuck me trying to phone one handed I guess, my finger needs to heal already) The point is is that you're basing Hashan's mysticism on something that for a good part of its history was almost solely the result of an insular group of people who a majority of really wanted nothing to do with Hashan.

Ah you were back then ( also your mention of Indrani helped figure it out). Yep I joined roughly after that. 

I can understand your indifference towards a certain member...I wont push at it.

I do wish you were around for the Wlo days. I find those (personally) to be the pinacle of spiritwalker ritualism and achievement.

Anywho moving on. I'd love the "no god" concept for Hashan

Ahmet

Re: the wellspring idea

Turns out later down the line it was Twilight the whole time, faking His failure, then manipulating things behind the scenes, and it was His power fueling the Wellspring and guarding Hashan against the wrath of other divine.

Make it happen.

Voli

All this talk about Hashan rising up reminds me of the intro trailer to Gal Civ 3.. if you replace every mention of 'Human' with 'Hashani'.

(found the spoiler button)

Dominius

I'm in for a loyalty system for cities. Something like if loyalty is weak things start crawling out of sewers or NPC towns start attacking the city within its boundaries and the weaker the loyalty the stronger the NPCs. Now that would be reason for some people to support their city.

Aesgar

Nazihk said:

Ozmatiah said:

I don't know that I accept the reason that Karren, Vender, Nazihk, Mathilda, Aesgar, and whoever left Hashan because 'others were not willing to die' It just feels like a cop out to me, when I think the identity issue is much bigger.  

I left because the combat environment was bad, and it's bad for multiple reasons. One is the lack of a good factional identity, which gives the citizens no common cause to rally around. Another is that the general attitude towards death means that citizens aren't as willing to participate in losing fights, and losing fights is how you learn to win them.

Kiet said:

I honestly am at a loss on how to 'fix' Hashan. Like what possibly is there to be done, other than embracing an actual ethos? Hashan doesn't want to embrace Twilight, fine. But what else is there left to embrace? Every archetype is kind of taken.

Go the whole 'No Gods, No Masters' route. Object to all Divine interference. Turn the Wellspring into a force capable of letting them hold their own against Gods. Instead of Orders, they can have some kind of secret scientist society that builds alchemical 'shrines', etc. Want to be the Science City? Then do that shit hardcore imo.

This is actually the best idea for Hashan I have heard in a long time. Something that would make them standout. Right now they are caught in the "shadows", or somewhere between embracing Darkness and Freedom.

Would be cool if they had a unique purpose instead of not really knowing where to align themselves.

Athroseilon

So... fedora Hashan? 

I like the idea, thought about making a "no gods, no kings" reference, but balancing it would be a wee bit hard. Brings to mind that Pratchett quote about "standing on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards!'"

If you give Hashan a Godhammer, it's going to have to be tuned so that it can't affect other cities. 

I still really like the idea, though. 

Asmodron

Hmm..I could sort of see it working...if the emphasis was on science and the self with a complete rejection of faith....though to reject faith when you have literal walking gods that bestow power and boons on mortals is pretty difficult to swallow.


Frankly I'd just want to use the giant ritual circle and wellspring to make something like this for Hashan:

Lucianus

Hashan needs a visible mechanic to hold players from the moment they complete their city tasks and swear into full citizenship. Dangling a carrot and whispering, 'Oooo~ secrecy~ Work haaard and you'll become a part of it~', can only hold a player's interest for so long. Plus the moment a key player/CL who is maintaining the RP disappears or has to step back due to personal issues in real life, it all starts falling apart and becomes a cycle where Hashan has to fight to redefine itself every time there is a void left behind by that player.

It's a shame too. Cause Darkness is suppose to be one of the main antagonistic forces vying for dominance in Creation. They're not suppose to be Cyrene-Lite. It doesn't have to be something big like a factional class. A small mechanic like being able to tap into the Well-spring to return to the city from anywhere on the continent via a channeled action or be able to gain a small regeneration bonus would make a huge difference for players looking to feel as though they are a part of something in Hashan.

Xaden

Lucianus said:

Hashan needs a visible mechanic to hold players from the moment they complete their city tasks and swear into full citizenship. Dangling a carrot and whispering, 'Oooo~ secrecy~ Work haaard and you'll become a part of it~', can only hold a player's interest for so long. Plus the moment a key player/CL who is maintaining the RP disappears or has to step back due to personal issues in real life, it all starts falling apart and becomes a cycle where Hashan has to fight to redefine itself every time there is a void left behind by that player.

It's a shame too. Cause Darkness is suppose to be one of the main antagonistic forces vying for dominance in Creation. They're not suppose to be Cyrene-Lite. It doesn't have to be something big like a factional class. A small mechanic like being able to tap into the Well-spring to return to the city from anywhere on the continent via a channeled action or be able to gain a small regeneration bonus would make a huge difference for players looking to feel as though they are a part of something in Hashan.

Problem is the time to ask for something like that has long passed.

In the wake of the underworld war they could well have pushed for a mechanic like this based on an RP event they design themselves and would have had a good shout at getting something through.

You have to earn these things - be that through drawing attention to yourselves through military dominance or through stand-out RP (think Flair).

Trey

Asmodron said:

Hmm..I could sort of see it working...if the emphasis was on science and the self with a complete rejection of faith....though to reject faith when you have literal walking gods that bestow power and boons on mortals is pretty difficult to swallow.


Frankly I'd just want to use the giant ritual circle and wellspring to make something like this for Hashan:

You're severely limiting yourself by equating rejection to denying their existence. Rejection of the Gods could be as easy as "we have no need of you. We wield power as you do, and there is no task the Divine can accomplish that we camnot also accomplish through our great works. The time of your ilk growing fat on the essence we offer is over, and you will fade, forgotten".

Aralaya

If that ever does happen it'd be interesting to see how the other cities reacted, especially the theologies since they're defined by their Gods.

Mathilda

Athroseilon said:

If you give Hashan a Godhammer, it's going to have to be tuned so that it can't affect other cities. 

Why wouldn't you want to affect other cities?

If you're going to continue being insular, then you might as well not bother working towards a unique identity.

Asmodron

Trey said:

Asmodron said:

Hmm..I could sort of see it working...if the emphasis was on science and the self with a complete rejection of faith....though to reject faith when you have literal walking gods that bestow power and boons on mortals is pretty difficult to swallow.


Frankly I'd just want to use the giant ritual circle and wellspring to make something like this for Hashan:

You're severely limiting yourself by equating rejection to denying their existence. Rejection of the Gods could be as easy as "we have no need of you. We wield power as you do, and there is no task the Divine can accomplish that we camnot also accomplish through our great works. The time of your ilk growing fat on the essence we offer is over, and you will fade, forgotten".

Definitely not equating it to rejection of existence, but as you said, to the idea of their power. I'd honestly find it very hard to believe that any city or mortal (not raised by other gods) could equate to the power of a god...I mean...anything is possible if the admin want it to be...but it just seems highly unlikely.

Even the Tsol'teth, whom became incredibly powerful by their own free will and in no service to a god....were initially empowered by a God (Thoth).

The idea itself has merit...but as I said, it is hard to reject faith towards super powerful beings when they are literally walking around you accomplishing miracles and smiting mortals with a flick of the wrist. It would be pretty interesting for Hashan to go that route...but sadly all I see is just more drama exploding from it.

It would have to be an incredibly clear-cut concept that fully defines the city as a whole, rather than the usual half-ass changes that have occurred in the past, for it to stick.

Jacen

Xaden said:

Lucianus said:

Hashan needs a visible mechanic to hold players from the moment they complete their city tasks and swear into full citizenship. Dangling a carrot and whispering, 'Oooo~ secrecy~ Work haaard and you'll become a part of it~', can only hold a player's interest for so long. Plus the moment a key player/CL who is maintaining the RP disappears or has to step back due to personal issues in real life, it all starts falling apart and becomes a cycle where Hashan has to fight to redefine itself every time there is a void left behind by that player.

It's a shame too. Cause Darkness is suppose to be one of the main antagonistic forces vying for dominance in Creation. They're not suppose to be Cyrene-Lite. It doesn't have to be something big like a factional class. A small mechanic like being able to tap into the Well-spring to return to the city from anywhere on the continent via a channeled action or be able to gain a small regeneration bonus would make a huge difference for players looking to feel as though they are a part of something in Hashan.

Problem is the time to ask for something like that has long passed.

In the wake of the underworld war they could well have pushed for a mechanic like this based on an RP event they design themselves and would have had a good shout at getting something through.

You have to earn these things - be that through drawing attention to yourselves through military dominance or through stand-out RP (think Flair).

Lol says a guy from the city that got, without earning, a brand new city, an identity/ethos overhaul, and two brand new divine!

Aralaya

Deucalion and Aurora weren't new? They existed before Shallam decided to go swimming.

Also I'm pretty sure when the Admins sank Shallam they planned for another city of Good.

There's a difference in something being planned to happen and asking for the Admins to do something over a year (maybe 2? I don't remember when the wellspring poofed into existence)

Edit: Also, having different divines become city patrons will cause your Ethos to change, especially with the Bloodsworn being what they are.

Mathilda

Jacen said:

Xaden said:

Lucianus said:

Hashan needs a visible mechanic to hold players from the moment they complete their city tasks and swear into full citizenship. Dangling a carrot and whispering, 'Oooo~ secrecy~ Work haaard and you'll become a part of it~', can only hold a player's interest for so long. Plus the moment a key player/CL who is maintaining the RP disappears or has to step back due to personal issues in real life, it all starts falling apart and becomes a cycle where Hashan has to fight to redefine itself every time there is a void left behind by that player.

It's a shame too. Cause Darkness is suppose to be one of the main antagonistic forces vying for dominance in Creation. They're not suppose to be Cyrene-Lite. It doesn't have to be something big like a factional class. A small mechanic like being able to tap into the Well-spring to return to the city from anywhere on the continent via a channeled action or be able to gain a small regeneration bonus would make a huge difference for players looking to feel as though they are a part of something in Hashan.

Problem is the time to ask for something like that has long passed.

In the wake of the underworld war they could well have pushed for a mechanic like this based on an RP event they design themselves and would have had a good shout at getting something through.

You have to earn these things - be that through drawing attention to yourselves through military dominance or through stand-out RP (think Flair).

Lol says a guy from the city that got, without earning, a brand new city, an identity/ethos overhaul, and two brand new divine!

Yeah, but they had to let go of literally one of the two oldest cities in history, along with all the things associated with it (good AND bad), not to mention 5 divine (counting Lorielan, too), many uniquely-designed rooms, a lot of history, etc.

I mean, Hashan could blow up completely to justify an overhaul, if that's what you're saying...

Jacen

Aralaya said:

Deucalion and Aurora weren't new? They existed before Shallam decided to go swimming.

Also I'm pretty sure when the Admins sank Shallam they planned for another city of Good.

There's a difference in something being planned to happen and asking for the Admins to do something over a year (maybe 2? I don't remember when the wellspring poofed into existence)

Edit: Also, having different divines become city patrons will cause your Ethos to change, especially with the Bloodsworn being what they are.

Deuc and Aurora were new in the sense that they no longer existed in the lore, and were recreated for the purpose of rezzing Shallam. The whole thing was done to overhaul Shallam because it was in a similar state to the Hashan of... well, of Hashan's entire life. Hashan just doesn't have the benefit of being a major fantasy archetype.

Mathilda said:

Yeah, but they had to let go of literally one of the two oldest cities in history, along with all the things associated with it (good AND bad), not to mention 5 divine (counting Lorielan, too), many uniquely-designed rooms, a lot of history, etc.

I mean, Hashan could blow up completely to justify an overhaul, if that's what you're saying...

I mean, you say it like its a bad thing, but is there anyone currently in Targossas, or even in the game, that doesn't think Targ is much better off than Shallam was?

The only thing I care about that didn't already disappear in the Renaissance is Twilight, so you won't find me opposed to a catastrophic event.

Antonius

Mathilda said:

Athroseilon said:

If you give Hashan a Godhammer, it's going to have to be tuned so that it can't affect other cities. 

Why wouldn't you want to affect other cities?

If you're going to continue being insular, then you might as well not bother working towards a unique identity.

I think they're assuming that Hashan would be given a mechanical "Godhammer" that they're free to use, which obviously they wouldn't because that's moronic. It would/should simply be a roleplay tool, and usage would require admin/God intervention behind the scenes. It doesn't require balancing or tuning because mechanically it does nothing.

Reyson

Just a shield around Hashan that makes Divinities impotent within it would be enough. No offensive capability, just a no-fly zone, so to speak.

Ethos could be: given what You people have done for Sapience, we think we'll try our own way, tyvm.

Aggressively secular city state, rooted in science, coming right up. 

Xaden

Jacen said:

Xaden said:

Lucianus said:

Hashan needs a visible mechanic to hold players from the moment they complete their city tasks and swear into full citizenship. Dangling a carrot and whispering, 'Oooo~ secrecy~ Work haaard and you'll become a part of it~', can only hold a player's interest for so long. Plus the moment a key player/CL who is maintaining the RP disappears or has to step back due to personal issues in real life, it all starts falling apart and becomes a cycle where Hashan has to fight to redefine itself every time there is a void left behind by that player.

It's a shame too. Cause Darkness is suppose to be one of the main antagonistic forces vying for dominance in Creation. They're not suppose to be Cyrene-Lite. It doesn't have to be something big like a factional class. A small mechanic like being able to tap into the Well-spring to return to the city from anywhere on the continent via a channeled action or be able to gain a small regeneration bonus would make a huge difference for players looking to feel as though they are a part of something in Hashan.

Problem is the time to ask for something like that has long passed.

In the wake of the underworld war they could well have pushed for a mechanic like this based on an RP event they design themselves and would have had a good shout at getting something through.

You have to earn these things - be that through drawing attention to yourselves through military dominance or through stand-out RP (think Flair).

Lol says a guy from the city that got, without earning, a brand new city, an identity/ethos overhaul, and two brand new divine!

Shallam absolutely earned their destruction. I never played there and wasn't active much at all when it was a thing but from what I understand they worked very hard to fuck everything up massively.

Silliness aside;

Admins deciding that Shallam was fucked beyond redemption and they needed to redefine the Good faction completely is irrelevant to my point that you are in a better position to request the tools to  impact the world from a position of power. 

Jonathin

I swear that if you blow up Hashan, it's going to look like wherever I go, shit is always exploding.

Caelan

Xaden said:

Shallam absolutely earned their destruction. I never played there and wasn't active much at all when it was a thing but from what I understand they worked very hard to fuck everything up massively.

Silliness aside;

Admins deciding that Shallam was fucked beyond redemption and they needed to redefine the Good faction completely is irrelevant to my point that you are in a better position to request the tools to  impact the world from a position of power. 

"We were winning when I left".

Jokes aside, Shallam was so toxic that it spun off two other cities (Cyrene, Targ) to get away from the dumb shit.  People all fought for Good, but some folks like me thought that meant taking it to the enemy, some thought Good meant being a goddamned beatnik hippy peacekeeper.  Church thought their way of Good was better.  So on and so forth.   The big difference I see, is that they had an identity.  They stood in as the anti-Chaos (and then the anti-Evil) alternative.  Politically, yeah very similar.  Backroom deals, shady techniques, nepotism, etc.  

Goddamn it was fun.

Athroseilon

Antonius said:

I think they're assuming that Hashan would be given a mechanical "Godhammer" that they're free to use, which obviously they wouldn't because that's moronic. It would/should simply be a roleplay tool, and usage would require admin/God intervention behind the scenes. It doesn't require balancing or tuning because mechanically it does nothing.

I'd prefer to avoid sloppy, lazy writing to justify why a city can't use an enormous source of power at its disposal. Right now Hashan can't use the wellspring because nobody knows how it works. If the city does figure out how it works, it doesn't make sense not to use it. Saying "gosh, the admins won't let us use it" is not something the city leaders can say if we're attempting to actually roleplay. "The gods won't let us use it" is a better fiction, but the whole point of the device is to give the finger to the gods. Which means that you'll need a reason the device can't be used willy-nilly, and one that makes sense in the context of a city that rejects any authority but its own.

It's not about mechanics. It's about verisimilitude. The inability of players to recognize the need for IC reasons is a plague.

Shirszae

Athroseilon said:

Antonius said:

I think they're assuming that Hashan would be given a mechanical "Godhammer" that they're free to use, which obviously they wouldn't because that's moronic. It would/should simply be a roleplay tool, and usage would require admin/God intervention behind the scenes. It doesn't require balancing or tuning because mechanically it does nothing.

I'd prefer to avoid sloppy, lazy writing to justify why a city can't use an enormous source of power at its disposal. Right now Hashan can't use the wellspring because nobody knows how it works. If the city does figure out how it works, it doesn't make sense not to use it. Saying "gosh, the admins won't let us use it" is not something the city leaders can say if we're attempting to actually roleplay. "The gods won't let us use it" is a better fiction, but the whole point of the device is to give the finger to the gods. Which means that you'll need a reason the device can't be used willy-nilly, and one that makes sense in the context of a city that rejects any authority but its own.

It's not about mechanics. It's about verisimilitude. The inability of players to recognize the need for IC reasons is a plague.

The IC reason can be whatever. Its not sloppy writing to acknowledge that mechanic limitations permeate  much  of the game for the sake of plot and balance and other considerations. I mean, we don't we raze every village and reduce it to ash? We certainly have the power. We have holos and we have every other bit of skill-fueled magic at our disposal? We don't we just destroy Mhaldor or Hashan or Cyrene or Eleusis despite detonating three or so tanks in them?

Its all just a matter of suspension of disbelief. 

Athroseilon

Shirszae said:

The IC reason can be whatever. Its not sloppy writing to acknowledge that mechanic limitations permeate  much  of the game for the sake of plot and balance and other considerations. I mean, we don't we raze every village and reduce it to ash? We certainly have the power. We have holos and we have every other bit of skill-fueled magic at our disposal? We don't we just destroy Mhaldor or Hashan or Cyrene or Eleusis despite detonating three or so tanks in them?

Its all just a matter of suspension of disbelief. 

Yes, the IC reason can be whatever, but suspension of disbelief is more readily accomplished when there is a good reason. Cities fighting each other can (and at least used to) be seen as part of larger conflicts, just like cities are seen as larger than depicted in room size. 

Jacen

Xaden said:

Admins deciding that Shallam was fucked beyond redemption and they needed to redefine the Good faction completely is irrelevant to my point that you are in a better position to request the tools to  impact the world from a position of power. 

Idk. On the one hand, I definitely see your point. On the other hand, I feel like the admin would view Hashan in a position of power as "Hell, the problem just fixed itself, no need for us to spend time and resources fixing Hashan now!", and then boom, we're back to pre-Underworld Hashan.

Vallie

Daeir said:

I mean, has anyone actually *tried* setting the Wellspring loose in a big fuckhuge display and seeing what happens?

Make enough noise about something and get enough people involved and I'd be surprised if you didn't get a response out of it.

I looked through some news posts when I first joined Hashan, and some people had done some rituals with it that had some (I assume) admin backed ambiance. None of them did anything world changing, but the logs were neat and the concept was cool! Would love to see more of these, I have one half-written but I'm shit at this ritual-y stuff.

Ozmatiah

The idea of rejection of the Gods or the Godhammer wellspring is kind of silly, I realize it's fun to romanticize being mortal and standing up to a god, but at the end of the day the history of Hashan is to deep, and I don't think honestly needs a major overhaul to fix. All it needs is a commitment of the citizens to put Hashan first, Order second.  

I feel that Lord Twilight's response to a rather the coup, was a solid show of disapproval and all the coup did was weaken the city, and only really punished those committed to Hashan, didn't leave/retire/go dormant and have to work hard to rebuild.  I mean, with the Triad of Night, I would have expected those Orders to really just work together like Aurora/Deuc, but I believe we all saw that this was not the case.  I mean sure have your secrets. espionage, and spying, but why would Anyone think doing that to fellow citizens would further the city?

I'm just hopeful that Lord Twilight is still with us and rebuilding His Order with people committed to Hashan, and those that desire to really maximize it's potential. That or maybe Kasa can do it on his own, which he probably could with the right amount of free time.
 

Kiet

It's not really that major of an overhaul. Hashan has been rejecting divinities for a while now, and recent events show that the divine are more than fallible/vulnerable.