Cities

Lucianus

Let Tlalaiad and the Tsol'teth destroy Hashan and start a new city of Darkness that aims to unite all mortalkind to become part of the Meld... with the Tsol'teth as a playable race. At least that city would have a more clear purpose from the beginning compared to what Hashan is right now. :]

Neutral players can play as refugees moving to Cyrene or something.

Shirszae

Are that kind of people so numerous in Hashan? Somehow that doesnt strike me as true. I could believe it of Cyrene, maybe. But I've seen Hashan muster, maybe not so much for raids but for other things, and when they do, almost everyone gets involved. I think its the lack of unifying reason that turns people off from bothering with combat.

Ahmet

Shirszae said:

Are that kind of people so numerous in Hashan? Somehow that doesnt strike me as true. I could believe it of Cyrene, maybe. But I've seen Hashan muster, maybe not so much for raids but for other things, and when they do, almost everyone gets involved. I think its the lack of unifying reason that turns people off from bothering with combat.

When you can call your city's patron a bold-faced liar at crossroads and suggest that Twilight has been misguiding Hashan for god knows how long with many people present, including a regent, with no consequences, there's something wrong with your faction.

Lucianus

I believe Tlalaiad, even with the limited interactions He's given to us so far, inspires more fear and respect amongst the populace.

Tsol'teth culture is rich and strongly united. They are literally everything Hashan wanted to be. Every input on what players want Hashan to be is basically a emulation of what the Tsol'teth have accomplished over a millennia of detailed planning and uttmost secrecy.

Science? Done. They're literally the pioneers of th4 Achaean equivalent of genetic engineering.

Forbidden magic? They've got that in spades with their research into Terminus.

Want to have a place amongst the Divine and potentially transcend them? They researched and created their own Divine.

Everyone seems to want Hashan to be Tsol'teth 2.0. But you know it'll never happen. Makarios said it takes thousands of years to accomplish what they did. And we're to arrogantly believe we can accomplish that as Hashani adventurers who routinely have identity problems as a city and exist in culture that encourages politics and backstabbing?

Shirszae

Ahmet said:

Shirszae said:

Are that kind of people so numerous in Hashan? Somehow that doesnt strike me as true. I could believe it of Cyrene, maybe. But I've seen Hashan muster, maybe not so much for raids but for other things, and when they do, almost everyone gets involved. I think its the lack of unifying reason that turns people off from bothering with combat.

When you can call your city's patron a bold-faced liar at crossroads and suggest that Twilight has been misguiding Hashan for god knows how long with many people present, including a regent, with no consequences, there's something wrong with your faction.

Sure. No one in this thread is denying that there's something wrong. The short of it is that people are unable or unwilling to rally around Darkness. All I've been suggesting is that perhaps it is time to rally around something else.

Mathilda

Shirszae said:

Sure. No one in this thread is denying that there's something wrong. The short of it is that people are unable or unwilling to rally around Darkness. All I've been suggesting is that perhaps it is time to rally around something else.

I think Nazihk hit the nail on the head, here: people don't want to rally behind Darkness not because it's a failed ideology, but because it will bring more conflict to them.

In that case, the solution should be the other way around: get the anti-combatants to an anti-combatant city, and allow Hashan to finally thrive as the Night faction.

Antidas

Mathilda said:

Shirszae said:

Sure. No one in this thread is denying that there's something wrong. The short of it is that people are unable or unwilling to rally around Darkness. All I've been suggesting is that perhaps it is time to rally around something else.

I think Nazihk hit the nail on the head, here: people don't want to rally behind Darkness not because it's a failed ideology, but because it will bring more conflict to them.

In that case, the solution should be the other way around: get the anti-combatants to an anti-combatant city, and allow Hashan to finally thrive as the Night faction.

Agree. If this is the case, the solution is not to tailor the city to those folk who want to avoid conflict and thus get in the way of Twilight/Darkness. Its to either convince them why this is a bad thing, or if they can't be convinced (more likely scenario), then just remove them entirely. Honestly, Hashan needs a leader who isn't afraid to kick out half the population of the city and start over with those who are willing to get on board with their patrons philosophy. Would be a pretty unpopular decision, sure, but it might get Hashan back on track.

Athroseilon

Antidas said:

Honestly, Hashan needs a leader who isn't afraid to kick out half the population of the city and start over with those who are willing to get on board with their patrons philosophy. Would be a pretty unpopular decision, sure, but it might get Hashan back on track.

As the guy who went full Dawkins in the Crossroads for an hour yesterday, much to the dismay of Cyrenians and Hashani exiles everywhere, I think this is a pretty good idea. At this point I care far less about what ideology the city rallies behind than I do that there be one to rally behind.

That means followers of Darkness need to start selling their ideology. All the people scandalized that someone would badmouth Twilight in the middle of the city should consider how easy it is to get a decent number of listeners if you actually do something besides wring your hands in private channels and on the forum.

Shirszae

That is evidently not going to happen, as it has not happened for the last 500~ IC years. 

The whole kicking out business might work for Targossas and Mhaldor where the ideology is already firmly entrenched and there really is no wiggle room, but its not going to work for Hashan because such has not been established yet and they are not a theocracy. It will just generate more turmoil, more sour feelings towards Twilight and Darkness and ultimately be all for nothing as things end up exactly like the last cup. 

Anyway, its Hashan's turn to play, so to speak. I sincerely hope they will take whatever can be taken from all this endless blabbering, if anything indeed can be, and use it to move forwards, in whatever direction that might end up being.

Jonathin

Athroseilon said:

someone would badmouth Twilight in the middle of the city

I was cracking up over this for a good 5 minutes

Calira

Mathilda said:

I think Nazihk hit the nail on the head, here: people don't want to rally behind Darkness not because it's a failed ideology, but because it will bring more conflict to them.

This sort of thing is what I meant earlier when I said that the Targossians in this thread didn't know what they were talking about. Whatever problems Hashan has, anti-combatants aren't among them. In fact, I haven't seen a single instance of anyone in Hashan openly showing such a mindset ever.

Hataru

Anti-combats and anti-conflict are not the same thing.

Plenty of people like individual PvP but hate raids/defilings etc. You can also not mind defending but definitely not want to increase the rate of raids on your city. The lack of retaliation on Hashan's part definitely, in my opinion, says more about whether or not they invite the idea of conflict.

Calira

Hataru said:

Anti-combats and anti-conflict are not the same thing.

Plenty of people like individual PvP but hate raids/defilings etc. You can also not mind defending but definitely not want to increase the rate of raids on your city. The lack of retaliation on Hashan's part definitely, in my opinion, says more about whether or not they invite the idea of conflict.

I think that the lack of raids says more about the overall strength of the city and the confidence of those who fight in it, rather than hinting towards an infestation of anti-combatants. Like I said, I've never seen a single person espouse being insular or playing nice with the other factions, nor have I seen anyone complaining when we do get raided. Considering that Hashan gets raided daily and usually multiple times per day, you would think those people would be more vocal.

Hashan certainly has people who are personally conflict-averse, but there's a big difference between non-combatants or people who fight only occasionally, and anti-combatants.

Armali

Yeah, it's not like Cyrene where we might get told off for, say, jumping people in Annwyn, or tracking into a city and breathraining people.

Hataru

You will literally never get better if you put no effort into trying. You have MORE THAN enough competent people to raid. You just don't. You don't even defile to retaliate (you have at least a few who can, but hey you shunned your patron so...). 

Again: anti-new-conflict is NOT the same as anti-combat. Its not a hard concept. You have absolutely enough people to raid Targ or Mhaldor - especially with preplanning and being cautious of when to do it. You just don't. If you think that says nothing you're naive.

Armali

Hah, no we don't. Trust me on this one. Maybe off hours, but our folks need quite a bit more practice before I'd be comfortable even leading them in defense, never mind an offensive raid.

Calira

Hataru said:

If you think that says nothing you're naive.

Call me naive, then, but I never said it says -nothing-. If you think that a lack of raids can and must mean only that Hashan is against conflict or afraid of retaliation, then you're mistaken.

Nazihk

The thing is, the only way to get that practice is by failing at defenses and raids.

There's no amount of practice that will make up for a lack of practical experience. 

Armali

Sure, we're failing in a lot of defenses. Not going to ask a team that loses literally every defense it does without guards to go offensively raiding. Let's get all our ducks in a row first before we ask them to march across the street, yeah?

Austere

Nazihk said:

The thing is, the only way to get that practice is by failing at defenses and raids.

There's no amount of practice that will make up for a lack of practical experience. 

Yeah, @Ashtan.  You hear that? Failure is the best gift I could ever give. You're fkin welcome.

Calira

Nazihk said:

The thing is, the only way to get that practice is by failing at defenses and raids.

There's no amount of practice that will make up for a lack of practical experience. 

As @Armali said, we don't lack in practical experience - getting raided daily ensures that we have plenty - that practical experience has just shown us that we have a very long way to go before we can stand up to any of the other cities.

Hataru

Hashan has been using that excuse since -I- was Hashani.

We're trying to be sincere here, until people see a real raid, until they slog through defenses, they won't learn just maybe sitting in the arena with allies every now and then.

Y'all seem really intent on coming up with any reasoning to act like there's nothing wrong or telling about any of this.

Armali

Nah, you weren't playing when Hashan was raiding and blowing up tanks. About half of us know how it goes. The other half would die the split second they hit retardation. You're being a bit ridiculous if you don't think that practicing in an arena against common defensive setups won't be helpful. Likewise, you're completely ignoring the fact that we're getting raided daily, and a lot of time, we're engaging - we're getting your oh-so-valuable 'practical' experience in. And it's telling us all raiding would do is feed. Maybe if we turned back a raid without having to call guards? That's the day when we can call a raid.

Calira

Hataru said:

Y'all seem really intent on coming up with any reasoning to act like there's nothing wrong or telling about any of this.

Calira said:

Call me naive, then, but I never said it says -nothing-.

I get the feeling that you're not listening to us. You have actual Hashani outright telling you why we don't raid as often as we did when we had more combatants, but you refuse to believe them. You have actual Hashani telling you that yes, something is wrong, but the thing you're pointing at isn't it, and you're accusing them of denying that problems exist. Feedback is great, but beating a dead horse doesn't help anyone.

Hataru

Armali said:

Nah, you weren't playing when Hashan was raiding and blowing up tanks. About half of us know how it goes. The other half would die the split second they hit retardation. You're being a bit ridiculous if you don't think that practicing in an arena against common defensive setups won't be helpful. Likewise, you're completely ignoring the fact that we're getting raided daily, and a lot of time, we're engaging - we're getting your oh-so-valuable 'practical' experience in. And it's telling us all raiding would do is feed. Maybe if we turned back a raid without having to call guards? That's the day when we can call a raid.

For someone complaining I'm not listening you sure are content to skip over me saying *just* in the arena. Shrugs.

Armali

Not complaining about anything, @Hataru -- just reputing your points that Hashan is somehow anti-conflict the same way Cyrene is. It seems like you have a really weird perspective on how things are, frankly. It's like you're asking five Mhaldorians to go raid Targossas during peak time and then blasting them for not doing it. Of course we're not going to do it, it's blatantly suicidal and no one learns anything except how fast Targossas can kill you. Even Targossas doesn't do it -- they skirm with 3-4 and we respond and they lose? They just bring more people.

If we had the equivalent of eleven Mhaldorians? Sure, why the hell not? I'm sure @Regi, @Mosr, @Kasa, @Ajoc, @Sobriquet, @Krizal, @Lylith -- all of those people, if we could get them together at the same time (which we usually can't because timezones which kinda sucks) would love to raid. And no one is going to stop them either, it's not like Hashan has this huge pacifist lobby that you seem to think it has.

Hashan has lots of problems, and I'm certainly not qualified to speak on most of them. You guys can talk Twilight vs. anti-Twilight all you want and I won't say anything because I have no idea how that goes, but bringing up being anti-conflict as a problem is kind of silly.

Hataru

Armali said:

Not complaining about anything, @Hataru -- just reputing your points that Hashan is somehow anti-conflict the same way Cyrene is. It seems like you have a really weird perspective on how things are, frankly. It's like you're asking five Mhaldorians to go raid Targossas during peak time and then blasting them for not doing it. Of course we're not going to do it, it's blatantly suicidal and no one learns anything except how fast Targossas can kill you. Even Targossas doesn't do it -- they skirm with 3-4 and we respond and they lose? They just bring more people.

If we had the equivalent of eleven Mhaldorians? Sure, why the hell not? I'm sure @Regi, @Mosr, @Kasa, @Ajoc, @Sobriquet, @Krizal, @Lylith -- all of those people, if we could get them together at the same time (which we usually can't because timezones which kinda sucks) would love to raid. And no one is going to stop them either, it's not like Hashan has this huge pacifist lobby that you seem to think it has.

Hashan has lots of problems, and I'm certainly not qualified to speak on most of them. You guys can talk Twilight vs. anti-Twilight all you want and I won't say anything because I have no idea how that goes, but bringing up being anti-conflict as a problem is kind of silly.

1) Never said Hashan and Cyrene were the same. They both have problems. One is legally anti-conflict. One is functionally anti-conflict.

2) Mhaldor raids with low numbers all the time (so does Targossas and Ashtan and portions of Eleusis), so that seems like a really weird claim to make when you're claiming I have a weird perspective.

3) No one has said you're pacifist. This falls back to the "anti-combat and anti-conflict and anti-additional-conflict aren't the same" thing again.

You can tag all the people in you want, make all the weird analogies you want, but the way your city comes off to the outside is something you should be aware of. Because, guess what, that has a major impact on whether or not you get new players or converts.

Calira

Hataru said:

3) No one has said you're pacifist. This falls back to the "anti-combat and anti-conflict and anti-additional-conflict aren't the same" thing again.

Perhaps you should elaborate on what you mean by 'anti-conflict', then? I think @Armali and I are both under the conception that when you say that Hashan is anti-conflict, you're saying that Hashan is against or opposed to conflict.

Mosr

I got tags! I got tags!

Mathilda

When I was in Hashan, we would have a CWHO of 15+ but only maybe 5 of those would show up for defense. But when I moved to Targossas, our CWHO barely broke 10 but like 7 of those would easily come for fights.

It's not a case of artied vs nonartied, either. Because Hashan started with a fair number of artied people and the status was still the same; there is no drive to participate. So those people slowly trickled out.