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  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna be
    edited October 2017
    Lenn said:
    Well, truthfully I started following this thread more closely when someone quoted @Nicola's thing about noncombatants and anticombatants. Her opinions absolutely do affect me since she's a producer and I'm a paying customer.

    Shall I open a new thread, if you've all "settled" on changing this topic to be exclusively about Hashan? (The asides about Keresis and Eleusis make me pretty sure this isn't just about Hashan, but perhaps a new thread would help stifle further diversions.)

    IDRC what happens, but you're definitely stepping in to be contrarian, and then trying to twist a small portion of a larger argument that has nothing to do with you into you being a victim.



    EDIT: Quoting Lenn cuz Kasa had to go and ninja me </3
    Huh. Neat.
  • AlyxeriAlyxeri
    This is an... Interesting thread. For lack of better descriptors.
  • HataruHataru Midwest USA
    Kasa said:
    Sorry for triple-post, but can we stop talking about followers of Darkness in the plural? We don't defile because I have like 4-6 hours a day to play anymore, over half of which is during our non-peak time. Now, hopefully, the people I have been working with when I AM around will, you know, come defile with me in a couple days, but c'mon. It's like. Me.
    Ah I definitely should have been more clear - when I refer to Hashan and defiling I definitely don't just mean Darkwalker(s). If I talk about any city and defiling, save the two theologies, I'm meaning in a general sense since a few orders have presence everywhere and defnitely not as 'this fixes everything!' but just as an example of smaller scale stuff you can do if you can't get a huge group* to raid. (*not that one is needed)

    Also @Lenn, me personally only having a relationship with three players I found went over into toxic is my experience it doesn't count other people I have been known by other toxic people or toxic people I know about but haven't interacted with. And I'm probably underestimating, but I don't really give a care enough to spend hours thinking back 15 years to try and dredge up every single person to count. Also re Keresis/Eleusis: its called examples? I mean its almost like people use examples in arguments to point things out... I've also repeatedly refused to go indepth on the Keresis thing, much for the same reason I won't dredge back 15 years for individual toxic people I've dealt with (other wise 16 year old me would be screaming about how Mindshell is a horrific dickbag and should burn in hell, my definition of toxic has, ya know, also changed over 15 years so there's also that). So like I really, truly don't know what you're trying to do here besides be contrary. But I mean, to each their own.

    But uh, for the record? Being contrary to be contrary or going around "stiring the pot" on purpose is a good way to inch yourself to the toxic personality category. No one wants to deal with someone who does negative shit just to do negative shit.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
  • KasaKasa
    Illarion said:

    Two things: first, people are overthinking factionalism in Hashan.  @Rangor made a really good point about @Neraeos - you don't necessarily need a philosophy as such to be a great faction.  You don't need to be communism, or capitalism or whatever - you can just be The Red Team, provided that the Red Team has a cool and interesting identity.  If, as the person behind your characters, you think about all the factions this way roleplay actually becomes a lot easier and more sensible.  Darkness should, for the most part, be a set of tools and tropes that Dark-aligned characters can use to advance the interests of Team Darkness.  The philosophy of Darkness is great for rituals and RP and what-have-you, but let's remember: Darkness claims to have the secret knowledge that unlocks the universe.  Are people really expecting that if you get to OR8, an imaginary sect in a text game will reveal the truth of the universe to them?  Just jump in and go with it. 

    Second, the one thing that Darkness and @Twilight need to remember once and for all is this: no shitting where you eat.  As a player with a huge interest in there being as many great factions as possible, I was incredibly disappointed to see that the Darkies were playing aggressive politics in Hashan again.  People forget how soiled and hopeless the Darkwalker brand was once Original!Twilight went dormant for x hundred years.  You couldn't RP because everyone immediately assumed you would fuck them.  "Let's be friends!" ("Haaaaa, I'm not falling for that, I know how you people go!"), "Here's some information I found" ("Haaaaaaaa, you're all such liars"), "I'd like to run for office, be a secretary, whatever"  ("Haaaaaaaaaa, and then find out you betrayed me two minutes later?").  Darkies in Hashan have so many ridiculous RP advantages - you don't even need to play politics.  You ARE the city.  It doesn't really matter if an Aegean or an Ouranian or a Sartai or whoever is Seneschal or Regent.  Control should be spiritual rather than temporal.  It's... demeaning for Twilight and His order to play politics in Hashan - because sometimes you lose.  The only winning move is not to play.  The Patron has a dozen different opportunities to weave themselves into the fabric of a city and that's how they "control" things. 

    Way back when, Keresis tried to boss Mhaldor around and @Khoraji was Tyrannus, and he refused to comply on CT, and basically said This is Mhaldor, it's Sartan's city, and it always will be.  And every single Mhaldorian on CT replied with "Hail Sartan, Hail Tyrannus" (or similar) - no co-ordination, just instinct - because of course it was.  Mhaldor was Sartan, everyone knew it.  (It was pretty fucking cool).  And yes, that's easier with a dictatorship but it's not something you achieve by winning an election and getting a majority on the city council.  It's a long term, subtle, roleplay based move. 

    Darkness is so potentially cool, it's a shame when it's done badly.  A big part of fixing that is just chanting over and again: "No shitting where you eat, no shitting where you eat".  Cos again, the Darkies are having to clean up the turd they shat on to their own plates, and Hashan is going to spend another few decades  obsessed with internal strife instead of playing on the world stage.

    I'd just like to point out that, uh. yeah. We agree. The darkies that were part of that debacle were publicly killed and cast out of the Order on the world stage. Very loudly. That was a real ol' fuck-up. 

  • SidoniaSidonia
    I skipped like 8 pages but if Cyrenians are back to defending other cities I hope someone is laying the smackdown on them hard. Hate that bullshit. Its hard enough to balance numbers without accounting for randoms from other cities 
  • SalisaSalisa
    edited October 2017
    Edit: posted too slow, Ahmet got me.
  • LucianusLucianus
    Hashan after 100 comments about it on this thread:

    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • CaelanCaelan
    edited October 2017
           

  • JonathinJonathin Retired in a hole.
    Lucianus said:
    Hashan after 100 comments about it on this thread:

    Because a forum thread is totally going to cause an immediate paradigm shift in the city.
    I am retired and log into the forums maybe once every 2 months. It was a good 20 years, live your best lives, friends.
  • ReysonReyson
    Since @Kasa is here, lemme just say:

    C'mon over bb. We treat you real gud.
  • LucianusLucianus
    Jonathin said:
    Lucianus said:
    Hashan after 100 comments about it on this thread:

    Because a forum thread is totally going to cause an immediate paradigm shift in the city.
    More like multiple threads echoing the same problems over and over throughout the years the city has been around. 

    But in the end. Forums are more of an echo chamber wherever a debatable issue arises from time to time.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.
  • AsmodronAsmodron
    edited October 2017
    Reyson said:
    Since @Kasa is here, lemme just say:

    C'mon over bb. We treat you real gud.
    Kasa aint abandoning Hashan. While a lot of us oldies have been vocal about its issues...we still stick with it. It'll always be home. It is the memories there that keep us, as well as the hopes of a better tomorrow.

    Edit: Yes I know some of us started elsewhere but once you're hooked, you're hooked.
  • KietKiet
    Lenn said:
    It sounds a lot like "toxic" just means you don't like them.

    I mean, aren't you guys arguing that "toxic" players should be kicked or driven out? And your definition includes people who supposedly did that to you. :)
    this was one of the weirdest ways to jump into a convo and make it about you I've seen in a while, but I understand why you did it.

    you left eleusis of your own volition, and while you were a pacifist, you weren't, as far as I know, part of the group of people literally plotting to try and drive all the scions/gaians/gaia/etc away, so no, you can rest easy that no one's talking about you.
  • ReysonReyson
    Yeah, that's fair.
  • IllarionIllarion
    Kiet said:
    There's a big diff between a villainous character and what most people would consider a toxic character--which isn't necessarily the same as a toxic player. I assume that's her point.

    You can have a character who opposes literally everything Gaia/the scions/anyone not in your immediate circle does in Eleusis and ends up driving out all the combatants from the city as part of a likeminded collective, and that's a toxic character for the game as a whole.

    Then you can have perma shrubbed line-crossers of old, who were toxic as players.


    Right, but that's exactly my point.  @Hataru was equating toxic behaviour IC and OOC.  She posted that in response to me saying "I am a huge, enormous, ridiculous fan of the decision to turn Lorielan away from Good, for example.  Following your logic, everyone is obliged to go: oh, cool.  Still support you Lori babes, game balance!  That's the worst RP imaginable.  As a character, you're totally entitled to rage against her, hate her, drag her down, preach against her, kick her followers out your orgs, and burn everything down until she's really, really sorry".

    I'm fairly sure that you're agreeing with me, that a character would be totally entitled (and I'd go further, would be obligated) to do that.  Nowhere, anywhere have I advocated for the right to be obnoxious to the staff and volunteers - as staff and volunteers rather than as roleplayed characters.  In fact, I'm happy to vocally advocate the opposite.  My points are basically this:

    • as a character, your RP should be primarily defined by what makes narrative sense (for you as a character and within the constraints of the world) and not by deferring to the RP choices of others (including the Gods just because they are volunteers).  In other words, if Lorielan tells you she's bad all of a sudden, and you've devoted your life to Good, then your entitled to rage rather than follow - to fight Her, and preach against Her, and obstruct Her and do everything you can to stop Her and Her aims.  Or the opposite!  If that's what you think makes narrative sense for you. 
    • as a player, I think constructive and civil criticism is an important part of the dynamic between the playerbase and the Divine (and one the playerbase usually doesn't do very well).  Sometimes that involves saying "Hey! I think you fucked up here."  Or if swearing seems to bother you so much, "Hey! I think you made a mistake!".
    None of those propositions seem very controversial to me, but they seem to have bothered Hataru.  I assume because of some history with Keresis that appears to have been painful and upsetting on a number of levels.  Which is fine, but also not really relevant.  If your argument fails to separate IC and OOC considerations very well then usually it's a bad argument. 
  • TahquilTahquil
    Woah, woah, woah. Illarion, I’m going to let you finish but don’t you be bring Lorielan into your squabbles. The only bad thing about Her is how badass she is now. Her indifference is truly terrifying second to only what it means if She actually starts to show concern for the plight of us mortals.
  • HataruHataru Midwest USA
    edited October 2017
    Toxic behaviour can be IC and OOC and it can cross lines in both, I really don't see the point in beating this dead horse any further since you refuse to get that point. (It just so happens that many of the people who become most toxic, in my experience directly or as a witness, happen to bring it OOC as well - but plenty of people think they can get away with toxic shit IC that they'd never do OOC for no reason more than 'its a game' and people feel invincible on the internet).

    Edits made to make it clear my point was still about toxic behaviour specifically, not just disagreements/not liking something.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
  • IllarionIllarion
    edited October 2017

    @Tahquil I'm only bringing Her into this in the hope that She might turn on me with crystalline disdain, and smite me with Her Sceptre of Discipline Divinity.  Bad Lorielan is amazing Lorielan.

    @Lorielan @Lorielan @Lorielan

  • IllarionIllarion
    Hataru said:
    Toxic behaviour can be IC and OOC and it can cross lines in both, I really don't see the point in beating this dead horse any further since you refuse to get that point. (It just so happens that many of the people who become most toxic, in my experience directly or as a witness, happen to bring it OOC as well - but plenty of people think they can get away with toxic shit IC that they'd never do OOC for no reason more than 'its a game' and people feel invincible on the internet).

    Edits made to make it clear my point was still about toxic behaviour specifically, not just disagreements/not liking something.

    But you're not engaging with my points, whereas I'm responding directly to your arguments.  I addressed exactly that point in my last response.  If you're done with the argument though, fine.  I'm sure everyone else is plenty bored.  I'll just be in the corner claiming victory, like usual.

  • TahquilTahquil
    Illarion said:

    @Tahquil I'm only bringing Her into this in the hope that She might turn on me with crystalline disdain, and smite me with Her Sceptre of Discipline Divinity.  Bad Lorielan is amazing Lorielan.

    @Lorielan @Lorielan @Lorielan

    Yeah, but bro. You aren’t worth it.
  • KietKiet
    You're not totally engaging her points, though. You're kind of going off on tangentially related arguments. Characters can be both consistently roleplayed and toxic, and players can be toxic from an OOC standpoint, too.

    If the entire thing your character does is just oppose everything that'll be good for other people/your org as a whole, then it can be a consistently roleplayed character while still being better off... not doing that.
  • IllarionIllarion
    Tahquil said:
    Illarion said:

    @Tahquil I'm only bringing Her into this in the hope that She might turn on me with crystalline disdain, and smite me with Her Sceptre of Discipline Divinity.  Bad Lorielan is amazing Lorielan.

    @Lorielan @Lorielan @Lorielan

    Yeah, but bro. You aren’t worth it.

    I COULD BE, I COULD TRY. 


  • IllarionIllarion
    Oh it puts the video in your comment now?  Gosh I'm behind the times.  Is that allowed?  It's a really annoying video, I'm sorry for linking it.  I should really take my Lorielan S&M fetish to messages.
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