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Comments
...glad you've come around to the idea.
I recall the events of that coup and the overload of drama with it. While I thought it was sloppy, I was hoping it would finally signify the next step for Hashan to reclaim its identity. I recall Regi, quite expectedly, losing his shit over it. I asked him to let it happen and not cause unneeded drama, to simply see the bigger picture of what this could mean for Hashan. Sadly, he replied that this was a matter of pride and frankly no one else in his position would take this lying down (he did have a point there). The Drama ensued, insults tossed around on newsboards, accusations left and right of Darkness trying to enslave Hashan, of Twilight being an enemy, etc. etc., basically everything that was needed to once again push Darkness out.
I looked at the events and simply saw history repeating itself once again in Hashan.
In the end, I made a quick post, telling Hashan not to lose itself and that this repeated path would eventually lead to its own doom. I havent touched it since.
I just wasn't sold on your platform because
1) You keep saying you don't know what Darkness is
2) When explained in simple terms, you said you didn't like it, and then
3) You proposed a "new" idea that is...essentially Darkness anyway (progress and improvement)
It would be amazing to see Hashan move in a direction similar to Ashtan, where the God doesn't wholly define the city, per see. To be more specific, it would be cool to see another city embrace a construct offered by an outside party or group that shares their same ethos. This could lean into Night without forcing it to define a really ambiguous concept.
It wouldn't need to replicate the exact scene in Ashtan, obviously. Every new addition should build from the mistakes and learning made from the previous one, and I have no suggestions as to who this mysterious group of influencers might be...
But I still love the idea of more connection to RP that all citizens can embrace. For cities that aren't going to go full theocracy, it seems like a solid move toward unification that still allows some people to follow the city patron(s) and others to do their own thing (within reason).
Hashan elected a majority of Darkwalkers to the council, giving them political control over the city with no real complaint until you decided you also needed the top spot. Hashan pretty happily got behind the Darkenwood conflict with Eleusis, explicitly pushing Twilight's influence in the world. There's certainly a long way to go before Hashan's truly embraced Darkness as a factional identity, but lately it's seemed pretty amenable to the idea, overall…until there was an explicit power grab against a relatively well-liked leader.
Defend it all you like, but in the end, you made a pretty basic political error, got burned for it, and then proceeded to quit the city in the aftermath when the city didn't side with you in an unnecessary conflict you played a large part in creating. It feels silly to then turn around and blame the city for making you want to leave.
I mean.. it'd be kinda genius if the Darkwalkers did a coup, failed, riled everyone up against Twilight (thus ensuring that all the other cities knew that the competition was gone), get themselves kicked out (thus removing any suspicion of their motivates as they move to new cities), and proceeded to get hidden Darkwalkers to get elected into the positions they just had to vacate.. >.>
Maybe it's cause I'm sick.. or my brain is functioning more like an RPG/awesome Wheel of Time book/any awesome fantasy book atm... but that'd be awesome. Let the masses believe they have control, and the power to shove Twilight's order around... but we all know who is really in charge.... Maybe it was Star Wars.
Even after the coup, I still stayed in Hashan for at least a couple of months. It wasn't an instantaneous rage quit; rather, it was something that I took time to decide and talked over with others. After it became apparent that a good majority of the current Hashan players would, at best, tolerate Twilight's presence and patronship, that's when I made the jump.
There are also some rose-coloured hindsight glasses going on here, which is understandable. But even back during the Darkenwood days, Darkwalkers were tolerated, not accepted. I remember an incident when, during a lull in the fighting, someone (I want to say Redwan, but it's been so long...maybe Hellen? Idk) came up and essentially said to me that Twilight should be thankful that he's even allowed back in Hashan, and to enjoy the patronship while it lasts.
Even back then, there was thinly-veiled contempt for Twilight, Darkness, and the Darkwalkers. There wasn't really ever a chance for Darkness in Hashan while these people remained citizens.
As to whether Hashan is anti-conflict or not, I don't believe this to be the case. I personally left because the Seneschal at the time of the 2nd blackwave told us we were free to do what we wanted, granted we did not fight with each other and then I was attacked in Annwyn by my own city-mates for holding avatar.
Lately though, I've seen Hashan become more adequate in their defense against raids and taking steps to remove toxic players so I think Hashan could be coming up. The biggest thing that would cement a Hashan upswing would be if they acquired a few solid RP-PK'ers willing to represent the core of Hashan's idealogies and increase their might (ability to impose their ideals on other factions).
2) I was her first orderhead when she came back I am 100% sure I remember and know more about what happened than you particularly what was said to me by people removed. The issues WITHIN MHALDOR are not what I was talking about - I was talking about the relationship of divine choices and orders. Also, for someone claiming I remembered it wrong you sure are forgetting it was Shaitan and Apples still at the time. Sartan did not exist at the time period you are talking about, he had been split in twain. You're also forgetting Keresis was made patron because Shaitan went absent. The consensus was that having an active divine was better than not. Again, this comes down to your ignorance on why some decisions are made even if not optimal.
I won't go into a lot of the rest of the Keresis issues. Anyone who was Mhaldorian at the time knows where I stand on the way she starting twisting things and know my overall opinion that in the end.
The fact that I left the order after weeks of pulling all-nighters to get it into shape should say enough.
3) The "particular case" doesn't erase the rest of what you said. You have been adamant that its "usually" the Divine and are insistent despite several people who have been order heads telling you otherwise that you are right and couldn't possibly be vastly overstating a divine's power.
4) It has literally been and remains the back bone of half of your argument, don't bring shit up if you don't want it brought into the conversation. I've never said it was beyond bounds but that it is what you're jumping to first and so intertwined with the power you think Divine have that they sincerely don't is absolutely the crux of why so many of your statements are being taken badly.
5) Your character doesn't have to be happy about something. They can even act against it. However, what we've been talking about doesn't fall under good RP and the outright vitriol and harassment some Divine get for doing whats necessary for the game to grow doesn't fall under "reasonable fall out".
There is no IC reason for a character to openly talk shit about a Divine. They're supposed to be viewed at a higher level, that this has been allowed to happen in any city blows your argument that Divine are all powerful out of the water.
You've literally come up here and all but denied things Sarapis himself has outright said on forums does happen.
At the end of the day its about understanding the balance between RP and the fact that you are interacting with real people. When you take it a step too far in RP, it has very real implications - especially on city/house/orderleaders and Divine because of the amount of stuff your average person just isn't aware goes on on a daily basis. And it has nothing to do with fighting back against something you disagree with its about how.
Hi!
Gosh, that was a lot more defensive than I was expecting. Just some quick responses:
1. I agreed it was relevant. I just don't find it a useful thing to bring into an argument as it usually descends into appeals to authority and a lot of things not really relevant to the argument. I'm happy to drop it if you are.
2. Ah, I didn't know you were so personally invested in that particular Keresis story. I can see it's still a bit raw, and I can understand why you would be so defensive about it. It must have sucked to work that hard and see it go totally tits up. I stand by the position though that it was misplayed by Keresis. It didn't have to go down that way, and wouldn't have done if it been handled a bit better.
3. When a Divine (specifically the Divine, not the Order, not their concept, but the Divine as a roleplayed character) is angrily rejected by the CHARACTERS (not the players) in their org, then yes. More often than not, I think the Patron has made an error in how they roleplayed the situation. That's the only point I'm making. You seem to be assuming that I'm arguing for the right to be a complete asshat to the people behind the characters. I'm not. I think we owe them a huge obligation to be civil and constructive.
4. I'm not really sure of your point here, it got lost in the vitriol a bit. The statement you highlighted could be the basis for a lot - civil or uncivil, constructive or destructive. It would entirely depend on how it was done. Your argument was that the premise was inherently uncivil and unconstructive. It isn't.
5. Again, you seem to be confusing OOC and IC things a little here. There are no limits to how you handle that situation as a character. There are enormous limits on how you handle it as a player. Don't you see the difference? Don't you think it's important? I would guess that the Keresis incident hurt you on an OOC and and IC level, and that might well make it difficult to maintain that separation, but I think that's always a mistake.
I also enjoyed the ultimate appeal to authority. Sarapis would agree with me! And also this "Again, this comes down to your ignorance". I'm glad we're not getting into a tit-for-tat about who's better, that would be awful!
1) Again, you're the only one who made it a thing beyond base relevance.
2) I never denied it was misplayed by Keresis. But I'm not here to drag a divine through the dirt. My opinion on what happened is well known ICly. Its not "personally invested" even, you're just literally wrong about why things happened. Shaitan dipped for OOC reasons. Mhaldor had done the no-divine thing for years and it doesn't work. It could have been handled better but Keresis didn't just magically supplant herself for no reason and with no back up. I say that having already stepped away from the order at that point (simply noted: I will not participate in something that is quantity over quality) and benefited in noway, if anything what she did screwed me over even more. But you're misrepresenting what happened while not even correctly stating the divine involved.
3) And everyone has said they fundamentally disagree with you because you're underestimating people's ability to be asshats.
4) "you done fucked up" as an idea (not your direct quote, but you did say 'fucked up' specifically) is inherently not civil nor constructive.
5) Toxic behaviour is toxic whether its IC or OOC.
You clearly don't know enough about the Keresis situation so I really think you should drop it because I am not getting into a drag fest about like 8 year old drama her. Keresis was just an example of something people flipped out on (for two reasons: culling her order, patron) when a lot of people just ignored the strong historical reasonings ICly and OOCly ignored just how much it sucked to have no patron for like 4 OOC years.
Ignorance isn't a tit for tat. I'm ignorant of somethings, you're gonna be ignorant of other things. Like whether or not it was Shaitan or Sartan.
People severely underestimate both the inertia of Hashan's general playerbase, and how easy it is to rile the populace up against the secret society trying to commandeer the city.
I mean, like a third of the leaders involved in Hashan's Renaissance discussions were pushing for a true neutral Hashan.
I suppose this is the part I'm objecting to: "I never denied it was misplayed by Keresis. But I'm not here to drag a divine through the dirt.". I don't think it's dragging a Divine through the dirt to make that observation. In fact, I think the constructive thing to do is to make that observation. The remainder of your point, I think, is that I shouldn't use the word "fuck" because its not civil? There's a lot more words but I don't really see any substance to them apart from that.
I'd like to take issue with your 5 though. It's tremendously silly to equate toxic behaviour as a character and a player. You are literally a serving minister in a city that considers public torture to be instructive, and that executes its citizens for disobedience. To argue that we shouldn't be "toxic" as characters is nonsense.
You can have a character who opposes literally everything Gaia/the scions/anyone not in your immediate circle does in Eleusis and ends up driving out all the combatants from the city as part of a likeminded collective, and that's a toxic character for the game as a whole.
Then you can have perma shrubbed line-crossers of old, who were toxic as players.
Toxic characters/players are not the same thing as villainous/Evil/Dark/etc. Toxic characters are their own thing. There is a huge difference between being toxic as a character and acceptable RP.
By equating public torture as an idea in Mhaldor to toxic behaviour of a character/player I really don't think we're even on the same planet with this conversation.
I mean, aren't you guys arguing that "toxic" players should be kicked or driven out? And your definition includes people who supposedly did that to you.
2) I mean, I don't think its weird to not like someone you find toxic, that being said there are some very toxic people wherever you go on the internet. Achaea isn't special in that way, neither is IRE.
3) I don't think anyone should be kicked for most things (within reason, obviously) without at least attempting to talk to them. Some people act toxic and don't even realize it. (Edit for clarity: And there's plenty of things that don't cross over into toxic that people should be removed from any various org for as well. Toxic is just sort of its own above and beyond category. Most often a category you find rife, in particular, with people who abuse IC/OOC lines and refuse IC solutions in favour of screaming on OOC clans.)
I can think of three people I have had toxic relationships with in game that I would consider crossed the line, not necessarily on Hat either, and none of them have been involved with situations above. A situation can also be toxic even if the people aren't necessary.
This all aside, seems like you came here just to start shit @Lenn, rather than actually add anything to the conversation or steer it in a new direction so shrugs.
I'm not really "starting" anything though. I play Achaea for light-hearted roleplay and occasional IC drama, not raids or war or some grand overarching plot (my overarching plot is opening an in-game cafe
Shall I open a new thread, if you've all "settled" on changing this topic to be exclusively about Hashan? (The asides about Keresis and Eleusis make me pretty sure this isn't just about Hashan, but perhaps a new thread would help stifle further diversions.)