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  • I mean, you are the one that sat down with the Seneschal and said yeah, this is a coup...
    image
  • And I'd do it again, too. Hashan needs to bite the bullet and embrace a factional identity. No more mish-mashing, half-assing work that just increases the inertia. If Hashan decides to kick Twilight out and go full No Gods, that'd be super amazing, but again, it needs to be done fully and with zeal. None of the "We follow no gods except there are citizens who do actually also 3/5 of our ruling council are part of orders and it's okay if you think gods are actually our friends."
     <3 
  • Mathilda said:
    If Hashan decides to kick Twilight out and go full No Gods, that'd be super amazing

    ...glad you've come around to the idea. :tongue:

  • Mathilda said:
    And I'd do it again, too. Hashan needs to bite the bullet and embrace a factional identity. No more mish-mashing, half-assing work that just increases the inertia. If Hashan decides to kick Twilight out and go full No Gods, that'd be super amazing, but again, it needs to be done fully and with zeal. None of the "We follow no gods except there are citizens who do actually also 3/5 of our ruling council are part of orders and it's okay if you think gods are actually our friends."

    I recall the events of that coup and the overload of drama with it. While I thought it was sloppy, I was hoping it would finally signify the next step for Hashan to reclaim its identity. I recall Regi, quite expectedly, losing his shit over it. I asked him to let it happen and not cause unneeded drama, to simply see the bigger picture of what this could mean for Hashan. Sadly, he replied that this was a matter of pride and frankly no one else in his position would take this lying down (he did have a point there). The Drama ensued, insults tossed around on newsboards, accusations left and right of Darkness trying to enslave Hashan, of Twilight being an enemy, etc. etc., basically everything that was needed to once again push Darkness out.

    I looked at the events and simply saw history repeating itself once again in Hashan.

    In the end, I made a quick post, telling Hashan not to lose itself and that this repeated path would eventually lead to its own doom. I havent touched it since.

  • ...glad you've come around to the idea. :tongue:

    I've been good with the idea pages ago when it was proposed by Nazihk:

    Mathilda said:
    I would love No Masters Hashan. Anything better than the inertia of the present.
    I just wasn't sold on your platform because

    1) You keep saying you don't know what Darkness is

    2) When explained in simple terms, you said you didn't like it, and then

    3) You proposed a "new" idea that is...essentially Darkness anyway (progress and improvement)
     <3 
  • edited October 2017
    Mathilda said:

    ...glad you've come around to the idea. :tongue:

    I've been good with the idea pages ago when it was proposed by Nazihk:

    Mathilda said:
    I would love No Masters Hashan. Anything better than the inertia of the present.
    I just wasn't sold on your platform because

    1) You keep saying you don't know what Darkness is

    2) When explained in simple terms, you said you didn't like it, and then

    3) You proposed a "new" idea that is...essentially Darkness anyway (progress and improvement)
    To be honest the last few pages tl;dr but I did skim the discussion. 

    It would be amazing to see Hashan move in a direction similar to Ashtan, where the God doesn't wholly define the city, per see. To be more specific, it would be cool to see another city embrace a construct offered by an outside party or group that shares their same ethos. This could lean into Night without forcing it to define a really ambiguous concept. 

    It wouldn't need to replicate the exact scene in Ashtan, obviously. Every new addition should build from the mistakes and learning made from the previous one, and I have no suggestions as to who this mysterious group of influencers might be...

    But I still love the idea of more connection to RP that all citizens can embrace. For cities that aren't going to go full theocracy, it seems like a solid move toward unification that still allows some people to follow the city patron(s) and others to do their own thing (within reason). 
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the Storm
    Mathilda said:
    What I mean is, even dragons can take some time to recoup experience losses.

    The overarching idea, though, is that you shouldn't let the idea of textp loss hinder your raid game. Paging @Kasa, are you even level 80 yet?
    Last time I defended vs Targ, I died six times, lost somewhere around 0.2%. The xp loss really is trivial for dragons, and even if you only get a single kill, you're net positive.

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • Mathilda said:
    Opinions and ideas from outsiders aren't any less valid than those from inside Hashan. Similar problems can crop up in all cities, so you'd do well to actually listen to people who have continued to provide input despite your stubbornness.
    If that was directed at me, Fuck right off. If it wasn’t, carry on as you were. 

    (Party): Mezghar says, "Stop."
  • Klendathu said:
    Mathilda said:
    What I mean is, even dragons can take some time to recoup experience losses.

    The overarching idea, though, is that you shouldn't let the idea of textp loss hinder your raid game. Paging @Kasa, are you even level 80 yet?
    Last time I defended vs Targ, I died six times, lost somewhere around 0.2%. The xp loss really is trivial for dragons, and even if you only get a single kill, you're net positive.
    If you get .2% from a single kill then I'm calling shenanigans :(
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • Is this the part where we all realize that Hashan's inner turmoil is just a front for the Darkwalkers as they slowly indoctrinate major NPCs from various factions, numerous rogues into becoming informants, and align themselves with super powerful creatures.

    I mean.. it'd be kinda genius if the Darkwalkers did a coup, failed, riled everyone up against Twilight (thus ensuring that all the other cities knew that the competition was gone), get themselves kicked out (thus removing any suspicion of their motivates as they move to new cities), and proceeded to get hidden Darkwalkers to get elected into the positions they just had to vacate.. >.>

    Maybe it's cause I'm sick.. or my brain is functioning more like an RPG/awesome Wheel of Time book/any awesome fantasy book atm... but that'd be awesome. Let the masses believe they have control, and the power to shove Twilight's order around... but we all know who is really in charge.... Maybe it was Star Wars.


  • Keorin said:

    Defend it all you like, but in the end, you made a pretty basic political error, got burned for it, and then proceeded to quit the city in the aftermath when the city didn't side with you in an unnecessary conflict you played a large part in creating. It feels silly to then turn around and blame the city for making you want to leave. 
    This wrongly assumes that it all happened one right after the other, when it didn't.

    Even after the coup, I still stayed in Hashan for at least a couple of months. It wasn't an instantaneous rage quit; rather, it was something that I took time to decide and talked over with others. After it became apparent that a good majority of the current Hashan players would, at best, tolerate Twilight's presence and patronship, that's when I made the jump.

    There are also some rose-coloured hindsight glasses going on here, which is understandable. But even back during the Darkenwood days, Darkwalkers were tolerated, not accepted. I remember an incident when, during a lull in the fighting, someone (I want to say Redwan, but it's been so long...maybe Hellen? Idk) came up and essentially said to me that Twilight should be thankful that he's even allowed back in Hashan, and to enjoy the patronship while it lasts.

    Even back then, there was thinly-veiled contempt for Twilight, Darkness, and the Darkwalkers. There wasn't really ever a chance for Darkness in Hashan while these people remained citizens.


     <3 
  • edited October 2017
    Armali said:
    Ahmet said:
    Calira said:
    Mathilda said:
    Nevermind, you're right. Hashan is fine and does not need to change its attitude in anything at all.
    Very helpful. No, despite what you've been saying, Hashan doesn't need to be burned to the ground. Hashan doesn't need to oust its non-coms or force people to raid when they don't want to. What Hashan needs is an identity and a purpose, which is, unfortunately, not something that will come fast or easily. If there was an easy fix then it would have been fixed ages ago.
    Ousting non-coms and ousting people who actively oppose conflict aren't tehe same thing.
    No one actively opposes conflict, though. We just don't like getting into it when we don't perceive we have a reasonable (50/50) chance of winning, by any well-reasoned metric of winning. Will gladly breathrain a group of raiders raiding another city (and I did, and so did @Calira and @Kryger and @Ajoc) if I think there's a reasonable chance of winning, wherein winning here is defined as 'getting at least one kill OR getting out alive if I'm becalmed'. @Mathilda is, however, conflating the two in her post, which is where Calira takes issue - basically she's saying that if you're a non-com, you're anti-conflict.


    I don't think there is anything wrong with not wanting to go into a fight you know you might likely lose, but I prefer to engage or take on fights even when the odds are against me. Sure, my kill to deaths ratio is terrible, but through this process I would say that I have steadily improved my system, fighting methods and knowledge, in fashion similiar to playing a roguelike and slowly advancing towards the beating the end game. This kind of philosophy in my opinion is why other players like Karren and Mathilda often ask me to lead a raid for them. They know they'll have fun even if they die and when we do die horribly, we usually try to come up with a solution (while the more general response from the playerbase might be to go "welp, they had more/they lamed with guards").

    As to whether Hashan is anti-conflict or not, I don't believe this to be the case. I personally left because the Seneschal at the time of the 2nd blackwave told us we were free to do what we wanted, granted we did not fight with each other and then I was attacked in Annwyn by my own city-mates for holding avatar.

    Lately though, I've seen Hashan become more adequate in their defense against raids and taking steps to remove toxic players so I think Hashan could be coming up. The biggest thing that would cement a Hashan upswing would be if they acquired  a few solid RP-PK'ers willing to represent the core of Hashan's idealogies and increase their might (ability to impose their ideals on other factions).
    spread positivity
  • Vender said:
     The biggest thing that would cement the a Hashan upswing would be if they acquired  a few solid RP-PK'ers willing to represent the core of Hashan's idealogies and increase their might (ability to impose their ideals on other factions).
    The issue is that there is still no consensus on exactly what Hashan's ideologies are :p
     <3 
  • AchillesAchilles Los Angeles
    Klendathu said:
    Mathilda said:
    What I mean is, even dragons can take some time to recoup experience losses.

    The overarching idea, though, is that you shouldn't let the idea of textp loss hinder your raid game. Paging @Kasa, are you even level 80 yet?
    Last time I defended vs Targ, I died six times, lost somewhere around 0.2%. The xp loss really is trivial for dragons, and even if you only get a single kill, you're net positive.
    you should lose about about .1-.2% on a burst and .3-.4 on a true death.  Once a raid is sanctioned (usually 6 soldier deaths?) then all non market citizens xp loss is turned off.  Raid defense is typically good xp, you're KD ratio might suffer but you are playing with house money.
    image
  • Hataru said:
    1) How long you've played is actually relevant. Someone who has played through something like, oh, Caspian. Or the previous treatment of other Twilights. Or what happened in Eleusis and has seen the result of those sort of things can definitely make a difference in how you view a situation. If you don't like that, tough titties, what you've played through and seen is relevant whether you like it or not. No one is 'showboating' qualifications. But a person who has played 1 or 5 or 8 or 10 or 15 years will all have very different exposure to these issues. That's just how that works.

    It's not that it's not relevant, it's just awkward and unpleasant.  Illarion is just a dabbling alt, but I've played at least as long as you (assuming Hataru is your oldest character).  If you genuinely don't want to play "I'm better than you", cool.  I'll leave it at that.

    2) Divine do not have the advantage you think they do. Being Divine isn't a "whatever whatever I do what I want!" card. You are literally just not correct, there are literal examples of this having happened before. I've seen it happen here and in other games. I'll repeat: that you think automatically that the playerbase being crappy to a Divine automatically means the Divine fucked up and not maybe that the playerbase is being shitty and refusing to change because wah wah snowflakes (and I can and will say snowflakes here because the amount of 'BUT KERESIS ISN'T EVIL' ALIGNED when her whole origin is based off of being Shaitan's in the Elder Wars still gives me nightmares of having to deal with) says a lot.

    I disagree with a lot of this.  Divine have enormous advantages over players from a roleplaying perspective.  You're caricaturing my argument by reducing it to the statement Divine can "do what they wan'", that's not at all what I'm saying.  Of course Divine are restricted in any number of ways but they still retain enormous structural advantages over players - particularly over organisations they Patron.  You're also misrepresenting/misremembering the Keresis thing.  The problem wasn't that she "went Evil" - She was welcomed into Mhaldor while Sartan was dormant, they were desperate for a patron.  The problem was that she very quickly attempted to go against Sartan and place herself as co-equal or superior to him, and then demanded obedience from the (exceptionally popular and well-established) Tyrannus of the day on that basis.  Khoraji's obligation in that situation is to behave as Khoraji would do - and he did.  His obligation as a player is probably to have some responsible OOC communication about how to fix that, but he did exactly the right thing.  And it was necessary because Keresis misread the situation - and misunderstood the RP background of the org she was patroning.   I think that most, if not all, of the cases where a Patroned org turned against their Patron, the actions of the Patron were a big part of that.

    9 times out of 10 I'll take the Divine side of any argument to do with Achaea because the playerbase can be petty and irritating and demanding.  But it's just wrong to say that Divine aren't favoured in any RP type situation because they are - and it's wrong to expect a roleplayed character to always defer to a Divine's RP choices.  This isn't stage improv where you have to agree that the imaginary thing you were just handed is a ball.  If a Divine hands you a turd and tells you it's a ball, you're well within your RP rights to say "Er, this is a turd guys".

    3) I didn't bring up forums. Why would I bring up forums? The Divine actually have more power on Forums to shut shit down than they do in-game. The Divine can and do ban people for going over the top on forums. A Divine can't shrub a player to stop dissent because that player is being shitty and trying to run a coup (etc.) and players have consistently and without much possible recourse turned on Divine for trying to punish people for being shitty because the playerbase is who spreads rumours and combats them, a Divine isn't here to have a sit down with Hashan and be like "listen this person is a son of a bitch, I know I'm right, here's some logs, read them" where as a player can do exactly that. I really don't think you know much about the reach and power of Divine in Achaea if you think this is the case (especially outside of the theocracies, it could be argued its definitely more possible withint them but still not unfailing - Divine after all can't just shove everyone else, they have to think about retention and the situations, like with Twilight's order and Keresis' where whole orders have been shoved out have been with good IC reasons).

    The forums are an example of the general Divine/player dynamic.  In that the vast majority of interactions with Divine on the forums are respectful, grateful, deferential and attract much greater levels of interaction/praise than a comparable mortal post would.  There is also some shitty whinging about them now and then.  I think that's interesting.  My view, formed over years, is that the playerbase (not as characters but as people) is not very good at interacting productively with the admin.  There's a bipolar veering between sycophancy and whinging that I don't think is particularly helpful no matter what end of the pole you're at. 

    4) Constructive criticism is important. Your "if your city hates you, you fucked up" opinion is neither constructive or civil.

    I'm glad that you think constructive criticism is important.  I'm not sure the sentence you highlighted is particularly good criticism, it's just a sentence.  We're not even really talking about a particular example where a Divine screwed up - I made it clear upthread that the Order screwed up not the Divine in this particular case.  It's instructive though that you think that the statement "If the members of an org hate their patron, then the patron is partly responsible" is beyond the bounds.  "Neither constructive nor civil" - why is it not civil?  Because I made a swear?  I didn't swear at anyone.  Why is it not constructive?  How can you possibly have constructive criticism if any critical sentence is deemed not to be civil?

    5) Seriously, if a Divine does something major, especially involving their mythos (which is, in my experience >90% of the wah wah) - its probably for a good reason. Like game balance or need. That's why Keresis was switched from neutral-Evil to Evil. I can guarentee you it is likely why you saw some of the more hardlined stuff that happened with Nature Divine that pissed certain parts of Eleusis off.  Nothing is done by the Divine without shittons of planning and for good reason for the game. Sometimes its for events, sometimes its to fill a niche, this shit happens.

    Again, I fundamentally disagree with this.  Your obligation as a character is to do what makes RP sense for your character.  I am a huge, enormous, ridiculous fan of the decision to turn Lorielan away from Good, for example.  Following your logic, everyone is obliged to go: oh, cool.  Still support you Lori babes, game balance!  That's the worst RP imaginable.  As a character, you're totally entitled to rage against her, hate her, drag her down, preach against her, kick her followers out your orgs, and burn everything down until she's really, really sorry.  I'm not sure if the root of the disagreement we're (kind of) having is that we're both (I want to say it's you, but I'm trying to be more constructive on the internet these days) insufficiently separating out how players and characters should handle things.
    Sorry for harking back, but @Hataru made some interesting points, and I wanted to reply (and I'm well past the time when I get my kicks from arguing on the forums all night).  Responses in bold in the quote.
  • HataruHataru Midwest USA
    1) Sorry man, it is relevant. What you have experienced as a player is definitely relevant to where your opinions come from - just like in real life. Its not a tit or tat, you're the only one taking it as a tit for tat @Illarion.

    2) I was her first orderhead when she came back I am 100% sure I remember and know more about what happened than you particularly what was said to me by people removed. The issues WITHIN MHALDOR are not what I was talking about - I was talking about the relationship of divine choices and orders. Also, for someone claiming I remembered it wrong you sure are forgetting it was Shaitan and Apples still at the time. Sartan did not exist at the time period you are talking about, he had been split in twain. You're also forgetting Keresis was made patron because Shaitan went absent. The consensus was that having an active divine was better than not. Again, this comes down to your ignorance on why some decisions are made even if not optimal.

    I won't go into a lot of the rest of the Keresis issues. Anyone who was Mhaldorian at the time knows where I stand on the way she starting twisting things and know my overall opinion that in the end.

    The fact that I left the order after weeks of pulling all-nighters to get it into shape should say enough.

    3) The "particular case" doesn't erase the rest of what you said. You have been adamant that its "usually" the Divine and are insistent despite several people who have been order heads telling you otherwise that you are right and couldn't possibly be vastly overstating a divine's power.

    4) It has literally been and remains the back bone of half of your argument, don't bring shit up if you don't want it brought into the conversation. I've never said it was beyond bounds but that it is what you're jumping to first and so intertwined with the power you think Divine have that they sincerely don't is absolutely the crux of why so many of your statements are being taken badly.

    5) Your character doesn't have to be happy about something. They can even act against it. However, what we've been talking about doesn't fall under good RP and the outright vitriol and harassment some Divine get for doing whats necessary for the game to grow doesn't fall under "reasonable fall out".

    There is no IC reason for a character to openly talk shit about a Divine. They're supposed to be viewed at a higher level, that this has been allowed to happen in any city blows your argument that Divine are all powerful out of the water.

    You've literally come up here and all but denied things Sarapis himself  has outright said on forums does happen.

    At the end of the day its about understanding the balance between RP and the fact that you are interacting with real people. When you take it a step too far in RP, it has very real implications - especially on city/house/orderleaders and Divine because of the amount of stuff your average person just isn't aware goes on on a daily basis. And it has nothing to do with fighting back against something you disagree with its about how.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
  • Hi!

    Gosh, that was a lot more defensive than I was expecting.  Just some quick responses:

    1. I agreed it was relevant.  I just don't find it a useful thing to bring into an argument as it usually descends into appeals to authority and a lot of things not really relevant to the argument.  I'm happy to drop it if you are.

    2. Ah, I didn't know you were so personally invested in that particular Keresis story.  I can see it's still a bit raw, and I can understand why you would be so defensive about it.  It must have sucked to work that hard and see it go totally tits up.  I stand by the position though that it was misplayed by Keresis.  It didn't have to go down that way, and wouldn't have done if it  been handled a bit better.

    3. When a Divine (specifically the Divine, not the Order, not their concept, but the Divine as a roleplayed character) is angrily rejected by the CHARACTERS (not the players) in their org, then yes.  More often than not, I think the Patron has made an error in how they roleplayed the situation.  That's the only point I'm making.  You seem to be assuming that I'm arguing for the right to be a complete asshat to the people behind the characters.  I'm not.  I think we owe them a huge obligation to be civil and constructive.

    4. I'm not really sure of your point here, it got lost in the vitriol a bit.  The statement you highlighted could be the basis for a lot - civil or uncivil, constructive or destructive.  It would entirely depend on how it was done.  Your argument was that the premise was inherently uncivil and unconstructive.  It isn't. 

    5. Again, you seem to be confusing OOC and IC things a little here.  There are no limits to how you handle that situation as a character.  There are enormous limits on how you handle it as a player.  Don't you see the difference?  Don't you think it's important?  I would guess that the Keresis incident hurt you on an OOC and and IC level, and that might well make it difficult to maintain that separation, but I think that's always a mistake. 

    I also enjoyed the ultimate appeal to authority.  Sarapis would agree with me!  And also this "Again, this comes down to your ignorance".  I'm glad we're not getting into a tit-for-tat about who's better, that would be awful!

  • HataruHataru Midwest USA
    edited October 2017
    I mean when you tell someone who was directly involved with something they're wrong when quoting wrong names, they might get defensive, mate.

    1) Again, you're the only one who made it a thing beyond base relevance.

    2) I never denied it was misplayed by Keresis. But I'm not here to drag a divine through the dirt. My opinion on what happened is well known ICly. Its not "personally invested" even, you're just literally wrong about why things happened. Shaitan dipped for OOC reasons. Mhaldor had done the no-divine thing for years and it doesn't work. It could have been handled better but Keresis didn't just magically supplant herself for no reason and with no back up. I say that having already stepped away from the order at that point (simply noted: I will not participate in something that is quantity over quality) and benefited in noway, if anything what she did screwed me over even more. But you're misrepresenting what happened while not even correctly stating the divine involved.

    3) And everyone has said they fundamentally disagree with you because you're underestimating people's ability to be asshats.

    4) "you done fucked up" as an idea (not your direct quote, but you did say 'fucked up' specifically) is inherently not civil nor constructive.

    5) Toxic behaviour is toxic whether its IC or OOC.

    You clearly don't know enough about the Keresis situation so I really think you should drop it because I am not getting into a drag fest about like 8 year old drama her. Keresis was just an example of something people flipped out on (for two reasons: culling her order, patron) when a lot of people just ignored the strong historical reasonings ICly and OOCly ignored just how much it sucked to have no patron for like 4 OOC years.

    Ignorance isn't a tit for tat. I'm ignorant of somethings, you're gonna be ignorant of other things. Like whether or not it was Shaitan or Sartan.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
  • Vender said:
    Mathilda said:
    Vender said:
     The biggest thing that would cement the a Hashan upswing would be if they acquired  a few solid RP-PK'ers willing to represent the core of Hashan's idealogies and increase their might (ability to impose their ideals on other factions).
    The issue is that there is still no consensus on exactly what Hashan's ideologies are :p
    With a tight group of RP-PK'ers working in unison and backed up by the leadership, it is whatever they decide it to be.
    We need admin backing on some level. We've never had an A-team, but Kasa has built up solid PK groups in the past, and he's even been Seneschal on top of that. It's not like people haven't tried, people have busted their assets off to fix it over many, many years. I'd wager nobody burns out faster or harder than a Darkwalker or Ouranian in Hashan fighting this fight.

    People severely underestimate both the inertia of Hashan's general playerbase, and how easy it is to rile the populace up against the secret society trying to commandeer the city.

    I mean, like a third of the leaders involved in Hashan's Renaissance discussions were pushing for a true neutral Hashan.
    image
  • There's a good chance you two might be discussing two different scenarios involving Keresis if I am reading this correctly.
  • Hataru said:
    I mean when you tell someone who was directly involved with something they're wrong when quoting wrong names, they might get defensive, mate.

    1) Again, you're the only one who made it a thing beyond base relevance.

    2) I never denied it was misplayed by Keresis. But I'm not here to drag a divine through the dirt. My opinion on what happened is well known ICly. Its not "personally invested" even, you're just literally wrong about why things happened. Shaitan dipped for OOC reasons. Mhaldor had done the no-divine thing for years and it doesn't work. It could have been handled better but Keresis didn't just magically supplant herself for no reason and with no back up. I say that having already stepped away from the order at that point (simply noted: I will not participate in something that is quantity over quality) and benefited in noway, if anything what she did screwed me over even more. But you're misrepresenting what happened while not even correctly stating the divine involved.

    3) And everyone has said they fundamentally disagree with you because you're underestimating people's ability to be asshats.

    4) "you done fucked up" as an idea (not your direct quote, but you did say 'fucked up' specifically) is inherently not civil nor constructive.

    5) Toxic behaviour is toxic whether its IC or OOC.

    You clearly don't know enough about the Keresis situation so I really think you should drop it because I am not getting into a drag fest about like 8 year old drama her. Keresis was just an example of something people flipped out on (for two reasons: culling her order, patron) when a lot of people just ignored the strong historical reasonings ICly and OOCly ignored just how much it sucked to have no patron for like 4 OOC years.

    Ignorance isn't a tit for tat. I'm ignorant of somethings, you're gonna be ignorant of other things. Like whether or not it was Shaitan or Sartan.

    I suppose this is the part I'm objecting to: "I never denied it was misplayed by Keresis. But I'm not here to drag a divine through the dirt.".  I don't think it's dragging a Divine through the dirt to make that observation.  In fact, I think the constructive thing to do is to make that observation.  The remainder of your point, I think, is that I shouldn't use the word "fuck" because its not civil?  There's a lot more words but I don't really see any substance to them apart from that.

    I'd like to take issue with your 5 though.  It's tremendously silly to equate toxic behaviour as a character and a player.  You are literally a serving minister in a city that considers public torture to be instructive, and that executes its citizens for disobedience.  To argue that we shouldn't be "toxic" as characters is nonsense.     


  • edited October 2017
    There's a big diff between a villainous character and what most people would consider a toxic character--which isn't necessarily the same as a toxic player. I assume that's her point.

    You can have a character who opposes literally everything Gaia/the scions/anyone not in your immediate circle does in Eleusis and ends up driving out all the combatants from the city as part of a likeminded collective, and that's a toxic character for the game as a whole.

    Then you can have perma shrubbed line-crossers of old, who were toxic as players.
  • HataruHataru Midwest USA
    Kiet said:
    There's a big diff between a villainous character and what most people would consider a toxic character--which isn't necessarily the same as a toxic player. I assume that's her point.

    You can have a character who opposes literally everything Gaia/the scions/anyone not in your immediate circle does in Eleusis and ends up driving out all the combatants from the city as part of a likeminded collective, and that's a toxic character for the game as a whole.

    Then you can have perma shrubbed line-crossers of old, who were toxic as players.
    ^ exactly this ^

    Toxic characters/players are not the same thing as villainous/Evil/Dark/etc. Toxic characters are their own thing. There is a huge difference between being toxic as a character and acceptable RP.

    By equating public torture as an idea in Mhaldor to toxic behaviour of a character/player I really don't think we're even on the same planet with this conversation.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
  • It sounds a lot like "toxic" just means you don't like them.

    I mean, aren't you guys arguing that "toxic" players should be kicked or driven out? And your definition includes people who supposedly did that to you. :)
  • HataruHataru Midwest USA
    edited October 2017
    1) I don't think me nor Illarion has actually named any non-divine by name.
    2) I mean, I don't think its weird to not like someone you find toxic, that being said there are some very toxic people wherever you go on the internet. Achaea isn't special in that way, neither is IRE.
    3) I don't think anyone should be kicked for most things (within reason, obviously) without at least attempting to talk to them. Some people act toxic and don't even realize it.  (Edit for clarity: And there's plenty of things that don't cross over into toxic that people should be removed from any various org for as well. Toxic is just sort of its own above and beyond category. Most often a category you find rife, in particular, with people who abuse IC/OOC lines and refuse IC solutions in favour of screaming on OOC clans.)

    I can think of three people I have had toxic relationships with in game that I would consider crossed the line, not necessarily on Hat either, and none of them have been involved with situations above. A situation can also be toxic even if the people aren't necessary. 


    This all aside, seems like you came here just to start shit @Lenn, rather than actually add anything to the conversation or steer it in a new direction so shrugs.
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Melodie says, "Get rekt scrubbbbb."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): You say, "Scrubbbssss."
    (Mhaldor's Next Top Model): Trey says, "Austere was hangin' out the passenger side of his best friend's ride, apparently."
  • You're the one arguing there's "a huge difference between being toxic as a character and acceptable RP." Now toxic characters are super rare? I'm very confused what your point is, if there's anything to it beyond ranting about your former city. o.o

    I'm not really "starting" anything though. I play Achaea for light-hearted roleplay and occasional IC drama, not raids or war or some grand overarching plot (my overarching plot is opening an in-game cafe :) ). As best as I can conclude, some of you think I'm the poison killing Achaea and ruining your fun.
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna be
    Lenn said:
    You're the one arguing there's "a huge difference between being toxic as a character and acceptable RP." Now toxic characters are super rare? I'm very confused what your point is, if there's anything to it beyond ranting about your former city. o.o

    I'm not really "starting" anything though. I play Achaea for light-hearted roleplay and occasional IC drama, not raids or war or some grand overarching plot (my overarching plot is opening an in-game cafe :) ). As best as I can conclude, some of you think I'm the poison killing Achaea and ruining your fun.
    This entire conversation is about Hashan and its direction/ideologies. It has literally nothing to do with you.
    Huh. Neat.
  • Well, truthfully I started following this thread more closely when someone quoted @Nicola's thing about noncombatants and anticombatants. Her opinions absolutely do affect me since she's a producer and I'm a paying customer.

    Shall I open a new thread, if you've all "settled" on changing this topic to be exclusively about Hashan? (The asides about Keresis and Eleusis make me pretty sure this isn't just about Hashan, but perhaps a new thread would help stifle further diversions.)
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