Quick Combat Questions

Taryius

What if muddle was just changed to boost epilepsy and dizziness, instead of stupidity/dizziness. Could do a bunch of things to epilepsy, like faster procs, longer balance knocks, making the balance knocks extend existing balance, make them consume equilibrium instead so they can overlap.

Keeps it something unique to the Psion, and can make using epilepsy more effective. Could even extend muddles duration if needed to compensate.

Namino

Mizik said:

I do agree with Gilliam, I think this wouldn't be so bad if we brought their prep to S&B levels, 14-18 slashes to break rather than 4. He's onto something. Can discuss parry/rebounding/missing if we want, as well. 

Is there any reason breaks need to happen in 4 shots, design wise? That and the passive mana pressure are my two main gripes. Of course, as Knight I couldn't even envenom/slash/smash vs them through muddle. 

Again, this is the problem to me more than stupidity, more than muddle, more than mana drain. Their break comes TOO FAST. And they require a single limb break to potentially snap the life out of you and they get it fast as FUCK. So fast, that by the time you dodge their attempt on your mortal soul from the first break, they're breaking you a second time. They're chaining their kill conditions together infinitely no matter what you do, run, hinder, shield, anything. Hell, sometimes they trigger a second killset before you're even done prio swapping around from the first one, which is when you get pinned defensive infinitely, which is what Mizik was describing.

Gilliam

Mizik said:

I do agree with Gilliam, I think this wouldn't be so bad if we brought their prep to S&B levels, 14-18 slashes to break rather than 4. He's onto something. Can discuss parry/rebounding/missing if we want, as well. 

Is there any reason breaks need to happen in 4 shots, design wise? That and the passive mana pressure are my two main gripes. Of course, as Knight I couldn't even envenom/slash/smash vs them through muddle. 

How dare you make me reread what I wrote you monster?

Breaks happen in four shots because without them the only way to deliver impatience becomes leg break(zero hinder or momentum) for prone or transcendence(5 hit momentum) for prone. Using transcendence for prone really clunks up the lock route which is supposed to be a threat. Using leg breaks is more workable but that's 10s of no hinder and losing momentum if there was any per leg. I'll be honest, I do play psion like a prep class against people who have instant hinder abilities or access to frequent leg breaks, so that DOES work, but it also takes away the whole pressure multiple routes thing which seems bad to take away.

Namino

@Gilliam But you only have to deliver impatience once to kill someone if their cure RNG is bad, and you get two chances to stick it per headbreak since you can give it back to them while standing until the restoration salve finishes. Even if it took 40 hits to break their head, you get all the momentum you need to kill on that 40th hit. The only thing that changes is they get 39 hits to actually fight back. Nobody is suggesting it take 40 hits, but like... 7-8 would be good to allow the other person a chance to hit you back every now and again.

Archaeon

you don't need a headbreak lol

Keorin

Psion getting a head break isn't a kill condition, and if you think that I'm not sure what to tell you. It's a small burst of afflictions and a powerful one, but you aren't any more instantly dead against it than you are when a sylvan overcharges, or bard gets a good songbird.

You're acting like giving imp+stupid is both incredibly lethal and impossibly hindering, when neither of these things are remotely true. Stuck stupidity + paralysis at average-at-best speeds isn't a lethal hinder condition, it's one that a -lot- of classes can easily reach (though it's pretty nasty for tekura, which seems like the perspective you're arguing from, at this point). It's also hardly a kill condition. You have multiple chances to try and cure out, giving it a pretty high failure rate, and even without that it's still a good few hits away from being an actual kill.

Psions capabilities and speed have their strong points, but aren't unique. It also seems like you're focusing on your own bugbear, while ignoring that the bigger problems with what you're describing are that stupidity is too hindering against certain classes, and excise may be too reliable for a class that's supposed to need to multiple routes.

Micaelis

Quick question in the spirit of this discussion: Is there any way to "accurately" determine when a mind lock will break based on the factors that go into its effective length? I'm fairly certain it's an RNG chance to break, where the range of the RNG increases based on those varying factors, but if I'm wrong I'd be all ears. Like if someone with x WP difference will always be 8-12 seconds, or something along those lines. Doesn't have to be exact. 

Keorin

So far as I know, every 15 seconds there's a die roll to see if mind lock breaks (or it's guaranteed if they're out of area), and the odds of that roll are based on compared wp levels (and also telepathy ranks vs their philosophy ranks, though that matters less often, of course).

Beyond that, I've got no idea of the exact odds, though I suppose it could be tested with enough time.

Taryius

Keorin said:

Psion getting a head break isn't a kill condition, and if you think that I'm not sure what to tell you. It's a small burst of afflictions and a powerful one, but you aren't any more instantly dead against it than you are when a sylvan overcharges, or bard gets a good songbird.

You're acting like giving imp+stupid is both incredibly lethal and impossibly hindering, when neither of these things are remotely true. Stuck stupidity + paralysis at average-at-best speeds isn't a lethal hinder condition, it's one that a -lot- of classes can easily reach (though it's pretty nasty for tekura, which seems like the perspective you're arguing from, at this point). It's also hardly a kill condition. You have multiple chances to try and cure out, giving it a pretty high failure rate, and even without that it's still a good few hits away from being an actual kill.

Psions capabilities and speed have their strong points, but aren't unique. It also seems like you're focusing on your own bugbear, while ignoring that the bigger problems with what you're describing are that stupidity is too hindering against certain classes, and excise may be too reliable for a class that's supposed to need to multiple routes.

There are some faults in your logic. Head break is a kill condition because it gives access to a burst of mentals, which is what blast requires. But anyway, you can't just weigh afflictions and their speed between classes equally when classes have different ways to take advantage of them, and different ways to get to their bursts. Arguing that the head break, which gives stupidity/impatience/prone/preparation in one go and then a follow up impatience if needed is not that strong because other classes can theoretically pump out 3+ affs at a same time is ignorant of how Psion takes advantage of it, and turns it into a kill condition.

Stuck stupidity, impatience and paralysis is pretty close to a lethal hinder condition, if I get into that spot against any class I'm not moments away from killing, odds are I'm bailing out or taking defensive action to get impatience off me. And the number of classes that can reliably stick those two, are probably just Apostate and Shaman, the latter of which has no room hinder. Maybe zeal Priest too, but I I haven't fought many of those.

Namino

I have described, in detail, multiple times, in this thread, step by step, how a psion kills you by trapping you in a premanent headbreak->headbreak->headbreak hinder/aff pile due to the speed of their break. I have been killed by this. I have seen many combatants, many of whom I consider very competent, killed by this. Most of the time to die all it takes is for a single dizzy/bad stupidity roll to prevent you running out long enough for a second set of lightbinds to get applied once the first set drops.

A psion headbreaking you and dropping two mentals, prone, and paralysis is 100% a redline moment in a fight where the next balance or two is going to decide your fate. And this happens every few balances versus a psion. It is a kill condition for a psion. For a serpent, it isn't a kill condition. For a psion, whose routes are very different from a serpents, it is. Repeatedly stating it isn't does not change the fact that the experienced combatants posting here have watched themselves die from this, and seen other people with moderate to extreme combat experience extremely pressured/killed by this seemingly effortless, lightning fast route.

If you, yourself, Keorin, have struggled to perform this kill-route, then perhaps you can talk to some of the many, many, many psions who regularly kill people in 30-45 seconds this way and they can help you get it down.

But it does exist. And it is oppressive.

Keorin

Bard is pretty darn good at it, with their mental stacking capabilities. Depthswalker, Sylvan, Alchemist all have at least access to them. Paralysis slickness forking is also much more hindering, in my experience, since it sticks paralysis on you a second and a half at a time, and that's also very common. In my experience, stupidity is only really lethal against classes where it wrecks their attack combos, which is a fairly small set, besides (though something that should -really- be fixed, if you ask me).

And sure, impatience and head break -lead- to kill conditions, but at the time of the head break, you're still a good 5-6 hits away from a kill at the absolute minimum, even completely ignoring any hinder or defensive play (and even if they came in with a prepped head, you're 2-3 hits in at the time of the break). There's a pretty big opportunity here to save tree for here (giving you something like a 50% chance, at least, of instantly curing out), using a prio swap, using all the many sorts of active heals or active hinders.

Pyori put it well a page ago, most classes have something they can do after the head break to pretty easily take care of it. And when Serpent is threatening kills on two stuck afflictions, bard is threatening kills on about that (if not faster, when heartsfury lets them do three affs in a round. Bard burst is nuts), depthswalker's stuck you into their degen loop at this point, snb can threaten its focus lock -while- making progress towards a prep kill, ect, I just don't see how psion's really unique here. In the end, it's true that some classes are going to have particularly bad matches vs psion, but most classes have tools.

That said, I don't actually disagree that mind blast is probably too strong, to the point where it's becoming the sole focal point of what's supposed to be a multi-pronged offense, and stupidity definitely hinders too much against some classes. Both could use adjusting.

Namino

Pyori's list is simply wrong.

Edit: In fact, just to demonstrate it, here:

Alchemist does Alchemist things. -- What the hell does this mean? Para/x them? The alchemist has imp/stupid stuck which knocks out their active and they're literally one hit away from being blast.

Apostate has shadowstrike (on top of bruteforce affs). -- Shadowstrike is stopped by prone and the psion is spamming overhand at this point to take mana if ravaged or reup imp.

Bard will outpace it without issue, and has tremolo/martellato shenanigans. -- I can't say why Pyori thinks a bard is going to bury a psion faster than a psion can break a single limb, but that being said, this is a separate argument. We're talking about what a class can do once it is h1, imp, stupid, para, prone versus psion and nothing in the bards toolkit helps here. What? Stun them with presante? That's not going to save you.

Blademaster has impale bs. -- As covered, they're not going to be able to effectively loop neck/pommel here. It takes several balances even without stupid to get them paralysed for the impale and that's just not going to happen before you're fucked entirely.

Depthswalker can just boost accelerate out of literally anything a Psion does.

Druid lol. -- ?????

Infernal/Paladin/Runewarden depends on spec. DWB Is about the only one I see 'struggling' and even then prob not with artis. The latter 2 have passive heals to help, as well as spec-specific things. -- Again, utterly vague. I can't think of a single thing here these classes can do. Arc/battlecry? Again this is just delaying the inevitable as they reprep your head while you're defensive and keep breaking it until lightbinds drop and you MAYBE get away.

Jester just hangs/puppet binds on head break. -- ...How the hell are we getting these fashions. This prep from the psion takes TWELVE SECONDS. Hangman works, see Occie.

Magi -might- be iffy?

Occultist just hangs/pathfinders on break. (or fights through it with lethargy) -- First one on this list that actually works. Hangman is an instant balance hinder and will work. So full marks on this one.

Priest has a lot it can do. -- ????

Sentinel will almost certainly outpace Psion to any kill path. -- See bard. This isn't about "getting to the kill path first" and even here that's really ambiguous. The Sentinel can't do anything once the head break happens that'll slow the Psion down.

Serpent was covered.

Shaman can vodun bind spam in trouble. -- See Jester.

Sylvan can probably just turtle it out with reflections, then blow up Psion with damage. -- This **MIGHT** work, since the reflection is going to eat overhand which drops first and prevent the head reprepping. But then the second the Sylvan stops reflecting and tries to hit them back, headprep again will be way faster than any damage output. The actual way I see this working is a slow prep into heartseed with reflection looping every time they get headbroken to prevent them from dying.

Out of the Elemental Lords, I think Earth may be the only one that might struggle? Air would probably stalemate it. -- Again, absolutely no details regarding how any of these classes would hinder after headbreak. Taryius covered Fire which works.

So, all things considere, of 16 answers, I'll give 2 correct ones for Occie/Jester, and a "see me after class" for entries like 'Druid lol' and 'Alchemist does Alchemist things'. D+ overall. We'll discuss extra credit later to save your grade.

[Deleted User]

Farrah rarely lost to Penwize psion regardless of his strategy. Similarly she explained how she lost to Proficy 2hander.
Sounds like the issue is on you.

Alchemist can salt with their ordinary offence. Not to mention lethargy stuck easily.
Bm doesnt need para when they can pommel knees and impale before psion gets bal.
Druid has bind on tertiary balance. And breaks multiple limbs equally as fast as psion. Faster if arti handaxe.
Your arguments about kill times is pretty bad. If they are in kill range the psion has to drop offense.
Sentinel has an easily accessible transfix and tumble through traps.
Bard will force psion defensive faster than psion forces bard, especially with reel and stupidity buried and heartsfury procs.
Shadowstrike argument is weird. You can predict when to use it very easily vs psion.
Will type more when ninja edits aren't going on, phone makes it hard.

Namino

Alchemist cannot salt with stupidity. The first time they get stupidity is the first time they need to salt out of the loop.

Again, you're missing the point with most of your answers. You're trying to argue, especially with druid and bard, that the psion gets in trouble faster. That's not the problem. In those scenarios, the psion simply walks out versus the bard or survives the Druid via pre-apply per normal. The issue isn't that psion is killing people faster than everyone else. The issue is that surviving a druid's prep means the druid has to reprep you. Surviving a bard's affs by running means the bard has to reaff you. A psion does not face these problems. Surviving a psion's head prep does not mean the psion has to reprep you, because they were already reprepping you as part of the kill attempt. If you die, great. If you live, who cares? You're already most of the way back to where they were before triggering the break.

Imagine, if you will, that Backbreaker also damaged legs. So I could break both of your legs and then bbt you, and if you survived it, I'm already halfway back to double leg breaking you again.

That's the problem. Psion is like that.

Atalkez

Pyori said:

Farrah rarely lost to Penwize psion regardless of his strategy. Similarly she explained how she lost to Proficy 2hander.
Sounds like the issue is on you.

Alchemist can salt with their ordinary offence. Not to mention lethargy stuck easily.
Bm doesnt need para when they can pommel knees and impale before psion gets bal.
Druid has bind on tertiary balance. And breaks multiple limbs equally as fast as psion. Faster if arti handaxe.
Your arguments about kill times is pretty bad. If they are in kill range the psion has to drop offense.
Sentinel has an easily accessible transfix and tumble through traps.
Bard will force psion defensive faster than psion forces bard, especially with reel and stupidity buried and heartsfury procs.
Shadowstrike argument is weird. You can predict when to use it very easily vs psion.
Will type more when ninja edits aren't going on, phone makes it hard.

This is assuming you have them dismounted with hamstring, and you likely will not as you're busy trying to clumsiness spam them, or leave the room yourself. If you do get away, hamstring is gone by the time you get back. Walk in > boom headbreak. You can't hamstring>dismount>prone>impale within the headbreak window, so this alone is vastly oversimplifying what BM can do in this scenario. Oh, also extremely open to stupidity destroying this attempt, since you'll be spamming through stupidity to try it.

Farrah saying she barely lost to Penwize means nearly nothing, though. Staff wielder with great offense (idk if she was Shikudo or not) should blow the class away, since everything she does is faster than anything he did. Penwize melted me with damage in Elord, and I've very often died before I could even break a single leg against Archaeon/Armitage - while doing literally every single suggestion regarding priority swaps that this threat has come up with.

One SECRETS procc or falling prone from dizziness and you're over with, once your head is broken. There's no defense for that.

Taryius

Keorin said:

And when Serpent is threatening kills on two stuck afflictions, bard is threatening kills on about that (if not faster, when heartsfury lets them do three affs in a round. Bard burst is nuts), depthswalker's stuck you into their degen loop at this point, snb can threaten its focus lock -while- making progress towards a prep kill, ect, I just don't see how psion's really unique here.

I don't actually think you and I are disagreeing as much as it probably sounds like we are, but I do think your comparisons are flawed. All of these are momentum (maybe not a lot of momentum, but still momentum) based scenarios. The serpent, the depthswalker, the bard all need to spend time getting those afflictions onto you uninhibited, Psion acts differently with their burst being prep related, meaning you aren't guaranteed a couple balances before it hits you after surviving/disengaging.

The closest comparison I can actually think of is a 2H prepping a leg, and then breaking it for a free overhand, and while I do think thats extremely strong, they kill slower afterwards, put out less hinder, and possibly won't even kill with the disembowels unless they've also got torso prepped.

Keorin

The head prep is an affliction burst, it's not some prep kill like everyone else. Being able to affliction burst early is potent, but the psion is still, fundamentally, stuck redoing all their affs on someone. You can't just walk in and headbreak, you have to build aff momentum first (and frankly, it usually takes about as long to build aff momentum as it does to prep head. Having head pre-prepped means you -maybe- save a hit). So psion's in the same boat as other aff classes, in this regard. The comparisons to other prep classes are basically meaningless here. Serpent has to prep too, and blows their prep when they've got a bit of momentum to burst into a lock, but we wouldn't say that a serpent's unbeatable because they've got you hypnotised.

Also, alchie salt is still strong here, because it means that curing -either- stupidity or impatience gives them a way to cure more (plus salt's natural advantage of not slowing down momentum as much).

Now, alchie does overly suffer from stupidity breaking their basic combos (which should be fixed), but besides that, their active does give them a good tool for curing out.

Torrent

There is literally one artefact that shuts down all Psion momentum that doesn't get used a lot in attacking a Psion cause there is no literal way of Psion getting through it. There are ways of stopping a Psion.

Taryius

Keorin said:

The head prep is an affliction burst, it's not some prep kill like everyone else. Being able to affliction burst early is potent, but the psion is still, fundamentally, stuck redoing all their affs on someone. You can't just walk in and headbreak, you have to build aff momentum first (and frankly, it usually takes about as long to build aff momentum as it does to prep head. Having head pre-prepped means you -maybe- save a hit). So psion's in the same boat as other aff classes, in this regard. The comparisons to other prep classes are basically meaningless here. Serpent has to prep too, and blows their prep when they've got a bit of momentum to burst into a lock, but we wouldn't say that a serpent's unbeatable because they've got you hypnotised.

Also, alchie salt is still strong here, because it means that curing -either- stupidity or impatience gives them a way to cure more (plus salt's natural advantage of not slowing down momentum as much).

Now, alchie does overly suffer from stupidity breaking their basic combos (which should be fixed), but besides that, their active does give them a good tool for curing out.

What momentum is needed? You don't balanceless blast, all you really need is one hit to burn their herb balance and you can break the head. Serpent snaps you and gets a single shot at impatience with no goldenseal stack, if that gets cured they need to wait until hypochondria gives it 3-4 ticks later. If it fails, it takes the serpent a large chunk of time where they cannot do -anything- to put it back up. They aren't reapplying hypno while burying kelp and ginseng affs to keep hypochondria/darkshade on someone post-snap

Alchie salt is probably the worst active in the game in that scenario, bar fitness. You also don't get to apply much pressure using it, because you'll always be paralysed for the temper part in that situation, and if you do get impatience you're still paralysed for the wrack.

Mindravaged comes fast, it comes quickly, its very lethal and there is very limited player input that can be done against it for most classes. Something needs to end up being less potent, and other paths probably need to be buffed to compensate. If Psion is designed to not work with a single path unless your target decided not to prio swap, then mindravage sticks out like a sore thumb.

EDIT:

Torrent said:

There is literally one artefact that shuts down all Psion momentum that doesn't get used a lot in attacking a Psion cause there is no literal way of Psion getting through it. There are ways of stopping a Psion.

There are several classes that get blocked by lyre, thats just the design of the artefact and not one I'd weight very heavily in balance because said person behind the lyre is also stuck not doing anything. But, funnily enough, Psion is not one of the classes stuck unable to do anything versus lyre. You have a damage attack that goes through it, and can stick every preparation through it.

Keorin

If your target trees early (most do, really), you need to do at least two combos to get momentum on them, so you won't want to head break until the third. If they hold tree, it's the second combo, but then they can tree to easily cure it off. For mind blast, you're either doing it without transcend (which'll cost you most of your momentum up until that point, meaning that you're gunna start losing the hinder race, which is a problem if your mana drain isn't absurd compared to your opponent's mana healing), or you're waiting until the sixth hit to be able to use it.

And I think that salt is much better in these situations than you're giving it credit for. Worse than some actives, sure, but it's still a very strong class ability in that situation.

That said, completely agree with this:

Taryius said:

Mindravaged comes fast, it comes quickly, its very lethal and there is very limited player input that can be done against it for most classes. Something needs to end up being less potent, and other paths probably need to be buffed to compensate. If Psion is designed to not work with a single path unless your target decided not to prio swap, then mindravage sticks out like a sore thumb.

The last thing I want is to see psion work like depthswalker, where you have a bunch of neat paths but you're only really going to ever use one or two, because why wouldn't you just degen them to death? Fix that, and fix stupidity being absolutely absurd against alchie/tekura/magi ect.

Just to spitball, maybe make mind blast require unweaving mind and then two of the other mentals, and then tone down the mana damage at high levels of arties. This would make it harder to rush on its own, and easier to defensively cure out of, while making it dovetail better with some of the other routes. And then in exchange, maybe make it less of a pain to stick haemo, and make it possible to actually track bleed. Maybe give flurry a boost too, so that it's more of an actual threat after 20 seconds of stuck unweave spirit (though it might be in a good place for high-strength people, that's hard for me to judge).

Farrah

Namino said:

Alchemist cannot salt with stupidity. The first time they get stupidity is the first time they need to salt out of the loop.

Again, you're missing the point with most of your answers. You're trying to argue, especially with druid and bard, that the psion gets in trouble faster. That's not the problem. In those scenarios, the psion simply walks out versus the bard or survives the Druid via pre-apply per normal. The issue isn't that psion is killing people faster than everyone else. The issue is that surviving a druid's prep means the druid has to reprep you. Surviving a bard's affs by running means the bard has to reaff you. A psion does not face these problems. Surviving a psion's head prep does not mean the psion has to reprep you, because they were already reprepping you as part of the kill attempt. If you die, great. If you live, who cares? You're already most of the way back to where they were before triggering the break.

Imagine, if you will, that Backbreaker also damaged legs. So I could break both of your legs and then bbt you, and if you survived it, I'm already halfway back to double leg breaking you again.

That's the problem. Psion is like that.

I think you're the one missing the point. You're treating psion like a prep class rather than a momentum class. No matter what kind of prep a psion has on you, they still have to build momentum to kill you. They don't just break your head and then you are prone and tumble or die like some kind of multibreak ordinary prep setup.

You're able to stand and fight after the head break. It's just part of their momentum. If I had you prepped and broke your head right away, with 0 momentum, you'd trivially cure it off before I regain bal with tree + two herb eats. Like every momentum class, psion has to burn tree, get ahead of herb bal, then break for imp/stupid. Since you can't be reprepped while you're still curing head, realistically, you get imp/stupid every 5 or 6 hits if they aim solely for that. You can tree touch on it and you'll have treebal about back by the next break.

You can also continue to push your offense after they blast you if you're close to a kill or lock, since it takes several more hits to kill you. Saying you have to stop everything when a psion breaks your head is like saying you have to stop everything vs serpent when the serpent gives you asthma. It's just a complete misconstrual of the stage you're at in momentum.

I honestly don't see how a bard would ever die to a psion, for example. It seems far fetched. And you act like the fact that the psion can't kill the bard before they get truelocked is irrelevant, even though practically speaking that is what will determine who actually wins the fight.

Naoko

The bards section thread about stats is 5 years old. Is str still the best damage stat for bards? Does collar boost accentato damage? Does int boost accentato damage in any meaningful way?

Keorin

Yes, yes, and no, I believe.

Chubbs

Aegoth said:
yay no more ez cheese Earthlord kills! (admittedly this is like a year old quote)

ETA: Moved this over from the other thread

Hi! Could anyone tell me what these ez cheese Earthlord kills from before were? I've been doing some testing and some admittedly limited sparring and dueling, and it feels like Earthlord is really easy to survive.

I have no hinder on hit. I have no room hinder. My shield break is cool, but I haven't found much I can do against repeated shielding. Admittedly, breaking legs and proning frequently is very nice, but that doesn't help with stopping people from surviving the kill sequence since the kill sequence pops the legs, the opponent survives the kill sequence, and then I have nothing to show for it.

You can just walk away from or touch shield through a calcify head kill sequence (two legs and head sequence even!) and completely neutralize it. Calcify torso + squeeze kills rely entirely on someone never diagnosing while in the room with you nor running away (which you can't really stop) and diagnosing.

I might just be frustrated since I haven't figured out a way to properly guarantee a satisfying kill after realizing that the opponent can just lie there on the ground laughing at you when you do a calcify head sequence then walk off like nothing even happened.

The only thing that feels like an ez cheese kill is if someone never checks their torso or checks it way too late. I really love Earthlord. I'm going to sit down and try to figure out better or alternate ways to pull off calcify head and calcify torso + squeeze kills (and eventually get to entomb bury).

Gonna stress test the strat for surviving the two leg and head prep kill into calcify head kill, but it worked extremely consistently during initial tests so we'll see. This opinion may change after future testing! Boy, does that feel better.

Atalkez

Leg > Leg > calcify head/break head > avalanche is a guaranteed kill if the target doesn't tumble out of a room hinder or have a prone defense to waste 1s of your time, or doesn't apply to head between the two legs.

Earth is very difficult to survive when executed properly. I'm not sure where you are struggling. A shield should never even come into play on a 2 leg setup. It only beats the one leg setup.

One of the yet-untapped routes is using calcify/quake/break leg > stuff to use forced salve applications (calcify) and abuse that.

Earth is very good at abusing the curing routes that people take. 

I would actually disagree with the initial post as well. Earth hasn't changed in what it can do once the Quake change happened. The stuff it could do before, it can still do now.

Armali

You're executing extremely incorrectly if they can 'walk out of or shield' through a two leg head sequence.

Chubbs

Gonna try it out more later when I can login as it's potentially very faulty, but the curing we were using to survive the Leg > Leg > calcify head/break head > avalanche sequence was prioritising both resto leg breaks above the mending leg breaks and treeing one of mending leg breaks then standing, ignoring the calcifiedhead.

My entire idea was that if the target could somehow stand before the avalanche happened they wouldn't die.

So the sequence went Break Leg > Resto Leg > Break other Leg > Resto Leg/Tree the first mending leg break > calcify head/break head > Mending the remaining leg/stand > avalanche. (Really wish I took a log)

The stand consistently happened around .1 to .2 seconds before balance returned for the avalanche to happen. So you could quake/avalanche for it if they stayed. I think the stand might happen in just enough time for the person to shield/run before your quake/avalanche goes through.

With the test subject just staying in the room, the Leg > Leg > calcify head/break head > avalanche kill failed every single time I tried it without using quake/avalanche or breaking an arm before breaking the legs. I passed out before we tacked on the moving/shielding on stand.

I also suck so chances are high that I could be executing extremely incorrectly

Atalkez

https://ada-young.com/pastebin/70Boeayp

Leg > Leg > Calcify/head > Avalanche

There never is an opportunity to mending/stand before the  Avalanche. Not sure what you're doing wrong.

Armali

Oh, I think I see what he means. Coughs I was making some assumptions.

That should work fine, but there are... EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES.

Cooper

Looks like tree might have helped there if used to cure a leg? Or did I miss something.