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Sartan vs Eleusis

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  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,829 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2017
    I've edited Exelethril's comment as it's not appropriate to speak poorly of our volunteers in public forums.
    This might be a true statement if he made a habit of this. Used sparingly though (like our current @Sartan is doing), makes him seem like the O.G. bad motherfucker that the name should evoke.
    Post edited by Dalinor on

    UtianimaTitonus
  • JacenJacen Member Posts: 2,308 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Shirszae said:
    Yeah, because saying,

    "Hey, YOU, near-omnipotent glowing fire of death, YOU are not welcome here. So don't YOU dare come here or the guards will do short work of YOU!"

    makes perfect sense. Yes, they are enemies for all intents and purposes. But treating a God like just another mortal -Should- be asking for trouble. You -can- do it, maybe,  just prepare your rear for it first.
    I mean, that's exactly what any faction thinks of their opposing gods, though, except for the part about guards making short work of them. Is Sartan welcome in Eleusis or Targossas? Babel? Sure, you can't do anything about it if Sartan decides to waltz in and do whatever, but that's no reason not to enemy. Its nice when mechanics have more meaning than just the coded effects. Declaring Sartan an enemy is mechanically meaningless, but I feel like its more ridiculous for the ultimate enemy of your faction to not make it on your faction's enemy list. Really just feels incredibly meta.
    image
    CailinOgnogAerekAziik
  • TukioTukio Member Posts: 31 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Dalinor I know of 3 people who received no response what so ever to complaints they filed and others who all received a generic response that is meaningless. So I don't have high hopes anything will be done about the unbalanced stuff and griefing going on.
    Wicella
  • LucianusLucianus Member Posts: 419 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Trey said:
    Tukio said:
    @Dalinor I know of 3 people who received no response what so ever to complaints they filed and others who all received a generic response that is meaningless. So I don't have high hopes anything will be done about the unbalanced stuff and griefing going on.
    Probably because most of the people filing complaints are confusing the term griefing to mean "the narrative and events aren't going exactly my way so this is harassment".
    Quickest way to burn out volunteer admins too. Seen it happen over and over throughout the years in MKO, Lusty... etc.
    That is not an ordinary star, my son. That star is the tear of a warrior. A lost soul who has finished his battles somewhere on this planet. A pitiful soul who could not find his way to the lofty realm where the great spirit awaits us all.

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  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,824 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    With the Gods one has to understand there needs to be give and take, and with events in general. The Gods aren't always going to be perfect, but in my experience constructive criticism and willingness to be fair with them goes a lot farther than outright making them sound like a villain looking to ruin everyone's gameplay. I haven't always agreed with Pandora, but there was always open line of communication and discussion, and ultimately I would always trust her judgment whether I agreed with it or not.  If a volunteer God was super out of line I trust the admins would do something about it, but I must assume this is a very rare occurrence.

    We also cannot expect that the admins or Gods will always turn things in our favor or keep things balanced. How many events have there been where one side gets a major advantage at least for part of it? During the Bal'met event there were parts of it that were difficult when being hunted down by ormyrr when they were helping Mhaldor, and when everyone raided Mhaldor together they had a God helping them kill the invaders. During the tsol'teth event each side had different advantages... one side had more numbers, but the other side was able to keep their master shrine in a mostly inaccessible area to the rest of us while other Orders had their master shrines moved out into the open so they were open to attack. This may suck to be on the team every now and then that has the disadvantage, but it also creates exciting conflict, and ultimately everyone gets a taste of both sides whether it's in a worldwide event run by the admins or player created conflict like the current fight between Eleusis and Mhaldor. During the tsol'teth event I got docked a credibility point for posting room #'s in the coordination clan, something I'd been doing because a lot of other people had been doing it before me and I was told it was okay. Well, apparently it wasn't! That punishment lasted for quite a while and came with a heavy xp loss on each death which was really harsh since we died a ton during the tsol'teth event, but it didn't make me give up and quit. I just worked with what I still could do and pushed on through. Sometimes that's really all you can do in this game, just pick yourself back up and keep on going.

    I also think it's strange that people want more God activity, but a new volunteer picks up a long dormant role and a lot of people are quick to criticize harshly. This leads to the loss of Gods, and then the continued complaining of how little Gods we have left. Lord Sartan is Evil. Not soft Evil, just REALLY REALLY Evil. He is supposed to do Evil things, and if you become a target of that isn't it more realistic to not expect him to be soft on everybody? He's supposed to instill fear and intimidation in others. I'll admit I was a little surprised he wiped out a bunch of Eleusians due to how much they've been on the receiving end of death after death lately, but after thinking about it, well... it does make sense within the abilities granted to the God roles by the admins.  Same with the truedisfavours... that probably can be worked on, but it's not the God's fault that it works that way, and unless you're expecting them to take time out of their day constantly to craft special RP punishments for every single person, well then their list is pretty limited in what they can do to get their point across.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

    TaryiusRyzanCailin
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,360 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That was derogatory..? Interesting standards but I'll take the bullet.

    Speaking as an uninvolved 3rd party, I think Sartan plays his role really well, it fits the narrative. The TDF was an overkill for a slight on that level though imo.

    Also, exterms are still incredibly one-sided and need a cap implemented. Imagine how much of the Mhaldorian playerbase would be left if Eleusis had an equal griefing tool for the past 3 years.

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  • TukioTukio Member Posts: 31 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    @Austere Assume all you want I wasn't even online when Sartan wiped eleusis. Because its almost impossible to play right now unless your a pker.
  • TreyTrey Member Posts: 4,829 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tukio said:
    @Austere Assume all you want I wasn't even online when Sartan wiped eleusis. Because its almost impossible to play right now unless your a pker.
    Every time you log in, you're playing. If you can't find some way to work with the hand you're dealt at the moment, that's on you.

    Caelan
  • TaryiusTaryius Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 816 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited June 2017
    Like its been said time and time again, Eleusis has this magic solution to put it all to an end. Mhaldor has offered multiple times to negotiate and end this all...
    ShirszaeSaevaKiet
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 3,114 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2017
    Austere said:
    Trey said:
    Tukio said:
    Dalinor I know of 3 people who received no response what so ever to complaints they filed and others who all received a generic response that is meaningless. So I don't have high hopes anything will be done about the unbalanced stuff and griefing going on.
    Probably because most of the people filing complaints are confusing the term griefing to mean "the narrative and events aren't going exactly my way so this is harassment".
    I feel like this post highlights one of the major pitfalls to being a divine.  If you died one time and fired off an email to someone's boss over it, shame on you.  Buncha freakin whiners. If Sartan quits over this shit I'll be the first to sign up for operation grief out the whining. Embrace your divine. Send them an email telling them how much you appreciate their dedication and sacrifice.  These people have given up potentially thousands of dollars investment, just to make sure others enjoy the game.  This public criticism is bullshit.  If you got a complaint, complain privately.  If you get ignored, you're being a cupcake.  Get over yourself. 


    I keep trying to send to Khalas, but I receive a notification of email not sent D: . I dont know what i'm doing wrong at this point.....


    I will however continue to embrace his stony skin.
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,891 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2017
    Taryius said:
    Like its been said time and time again, Eleusis has this magic solution to put it all to an end. Mhaldor has offered multiple times to negotiate and end this all...
    Kondar made an attempt... and then Eleusis raided and started to defile. So much for ending the war... sorry @Farrah
    Titonus
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,147 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    That's on top of defiling shrines today.

    I've got a pretty deep well of patience and empathy, but both are about dry for Eleusis at the moment, both IC and OOC. 
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
    PrytheTitonusYsela
  • DalinorDalinor Moderator Posts: 24 Moderator
    Tukio said:
    @Dalinor I know of 3 people who received no response what so ever to complaints they filed and others who all received a generic response that is meaningless. So I don't have high hopes anything will be done about the unbalanced stuff and griefing going on.
    It would depend upon how those criticisms were sent, I here assume you mean those people filed issues. If you receive an issue response but would like further review, you may email [email protected] to reach Senior Administrator Lathis, or reach out directly to Nicola or Makarios. All issues will be responded to one way or another, so if an issue has not been answered, it is still in the queue and will receive a reply as soon as a member of the administration has the time to properly respond.

    I do apologise if you feel that any issue is not being taken seriously and encourage you to reach out to our Producers with your concerns. 
  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 748 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Even with our late night crowd, we disarmed the tank, kicked 'em out, beat them up in the black forest, and extermed! Couple of us died some, of course. Only Kiet and Alrena there, big names wise, and Alrena wasn't present for the raid. 

    Maybe y'all should call it, if even your late night fighting isn't going your way.
    Siduri
  • AntidasAntidas Member Posts: 1,504 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dalinor said:
    We are closely watching this thread and making edits as necessary. It's fine to discuss the situation, or even to discuss the IC roles and interactions, but please don't cross the line and cast aspersions on the volunteers behind the Gods. Should you have a problem with how a role is being played or with a particular action, feel free to reach out directly to Nicola or Makarios. Thanks!
    I may be in the minority here, and I feel like I might get flamed a bit for my opinion on this - however, I do think it is necessary to voice.

    I don't think our gods should be above CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. I'll preface this by saying that I didn't previously read the comments you edited, so maybe they were all just insulting non-constructive rants at Sartan. However, assuming that was not was these comments were, I think it is important for the community to be able to publicly voice unhappiness with the actions of volunteers.

    I understand that our gods are volunteering their time for the betterment of the game, and obviously are not under any commitments to continue their time here. However, I don't think they should be beyond public (constructive) criticism just because of this. If a god does something people dislike, people should be allowed to voice that discontent in a public forum, and not have it constrained solely to private communication between the administration and the player, where the administration is not necessarily held accountable for those actions.

    I don't want this to imply that I don't have faith in our admins to not act purely in the interests of their staff and volunteers. However, just because I don't think it would happen, doesn't mean that I believe that the player base should have the right to express their complaints in public. Additionally, I want to state again for the record that I mean this is meant only in regards to constructive criticism. If someone is not doing this, I'm fully in support of editing their comments out.

    OgnogExelethrilZbaco
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,558 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The comments were not constructive at all, and were abusive towards Sartan.

    AnkhareoutefAntidas
  • CaliraCalira Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 577 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Melodie said:
    I've got a pretty deep well of patience and empathy, but both are about dry for Eleusis at the moment, both IC and OOC. 
    What's with being upset OOC that Eleusis is finally fighting back? I think it's great that some of them are having fun with the ordeal
    Ognog
  • AnkhareoutefAnkhareoutef Member Posts: 347 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Calira said:
    Melodie said:
    I've got a pretty deep well of patience and empathy, but both are about dry for Eleusis at the moment, both IC and OOC. 
    What's with being upset OOC that Eleusis is finally fighting back? I think it's great that some of them are having fun with the ordeal
    It's because someone had literally just said they were ready to negotiate.

    You don't tell someone, "Yea, okay, it's time to talk because this is getting out of hand" and then turn around and launch a one-sided (going by reports here) raid.
    TitonusSaevaYsela
  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,147 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Calira said:
    Melodie said:
    I've got a pretty deep well of patience and empathy, but both are about dry for Eleusis at the moment, both IC and OOC. 
    What's with being upset OOC that Eleusis is finally fighting back? I think it's great that some of them are having fun with the ordeal
    That is not at all why I am annoyed OOC, lol. I am glad they're fighting back! I am less glad at many others things regarding them, however.
    And I love too                                                                          Be still, my indelible friend
    That love soon might end                                                         You are unbreaking
    And be known in its aching                                                      Though quaking
    Shown in this shaking                                                             Though crazy
    Lately of my wasteland, baby                                                 That's just wasteland, baby
  • AetheleAethele Member Posts: 39 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Exterminating really needs to take longer or be interrupted more easily or have a timer or something. I fully appreciate what y'all are saying that Eleusis is a mess and contributed to drawing out the conflict. That being said, no other faction can be held hostage to the kind of widespread destruction that extermination can create. Imagine if every time a good denizen is killed, Targossians got a message about it and had to go use some devotion ability to raise the denizen. Or if Sartan had 2000 mini-shrines all over Sapience that could be brought down by one person with the right ability and every time one went down, that person got essence and Mhaldorians got a notification. Those situations would all be ripe for griefing. 

    Even though it's totally true that Eleusis mis-managed a lot of things in this conflict, strafing the forests until Eleusis publicly admits defeat is both boring and lopsided. When else in Achaean history has a city's leader -ever- publicly admitted defeat as a way to end a war? It doesn't happen because in any other conflict, there's no need for it to happen. Save face, fight on (even if you lose a lot of fights). The damage either side can do to each other is mechanically limited. Extermination is the one exception. 

    I am not logging in as Aethele right now because I'm on vacation and do not want to spend my hour or two of free time after my kids go to bed fruitlessly trying to fix exterminations that are just going to get re-exterminated again in an hour or so, or even more fruitlessly joining a defense party and dying a bunch of times for nothing, since we can't actually stop people from exterminating. 
    TukioOgnogFaedwynZbaco
  • OgnogOgnog Member Posts: 284 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I think most people on all sides of this debate recognise that our current @Sartan is doing an absolutely brilliant job of playing that God role. The debate is more about the bigger picture of balance and large scale conflict management when some God roles are vacant, as well as the consequences of true disfavour.

    Had there been an Artemis or Gaia awake at the time, the outcome may have been quite different. Firstly, the shouts that Coamenel quoted at the start of this thread would have been a witty repartee between Gods rather than a mortal trying to step up to that level. Also, the zaps flying across the continent to scorch Eleusian defence parties would have been counterbalanced with a few zaps in the other direction aimed at Mhaldorian extermination parties.

    Cailin
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