Welcome to the Achaea Forums! Please be sure to read the Forum Rules.

Sartan vs Eleusis

CoamenelCoamenel Member Posts: 188 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
So this just happened:

2017/06/02 07:49:42 - Coamenel declared Sartan to be a formal enemy. Reason: The Malevolent One has wiped clear an entire defense party, while forest rooms were being exterminated.


5947h, 99%m, 100%e, 99%w +bdckm EX-
Thousands of daemons howl and shriek as Sartan, the Malevolent roars above the cacophony, "You wish Me as an enemy Eleusis? So be it. Your hubris will your undoing."
5947h, 99%m, 100%e, 99%w +bdckm EX-


7040h, 100%m, 100%e, 99%w +bdckm EX- (+45m, 0.6%)
Your voice rises, harried by a frosty mist as you shout, "My dear Sartan, with all do respect, You have killed many of us. How do you expect us not to enemy You?"
7040h, 99%m, 100%e, 99%w +bdckm EX- (-15m, 0.2%)

7030h, 95%m, 100%e, 98%w +bdckm EX- (-10h, 0.1%)
A male voice resonates with the clarity of Severian himself, "When you were but a little tot Coamenel and your mother told you to never disrespect a God no matter how much you disagreed with Them or else. Did you think she was lying to you?"
7040h, 91%m, 100%e, 98%w +bdckm EX- (+10h, 0.1%) (+45m, 0.6%)

6990h, 97%m, 100%e, 98%w +bdckm EX- (+908m, 12.9%)
You see Ahura Rangor Corten, Hierophant of Eleusis shout, "Since the early days of my life Evil has warred against Nature, Eleusis has always stood against your Legions and will continue to do so."
6990h, 98%m, 100%e, 98%w +bdckm EX- (+60m, 0.9%)

7020h, 91%m, 100%e, 98%w +bdckm EX- (-20h, 0.3%) (+75m, 1.1%)
Guardian Xaden Ashture, Song of the Lightbringer booms from near the heights of attainment, "I thought he was quite polite, Morthif. Not that you'd know much about manners."
7020h, 91%m, 100%e, 98%w +bdckm EX-

7030h, 91%m, 100%e, 98%w +bdckm EX- (+10h, 0.1%) (+45m, 0.6%)
A male voice resonates with the clarity of Severian himself, "Not sure what you are implying Xaden."
7040h, 86%m, 99%e, 98%w +bdckm EX-

7040h, 99%m, 100%e, 97%w +bdckm EX- (+19h, 0.3%) (-15m, 0.2%)
Guardian Xaden Ashture, Song of the Lightbringer booms from near the heights of attainment, "I'll add lacking in intellect to your list of deficiencies too, so."
7040h, 99%m, 100%e, 97%w +bdckm EX-

7020h, 92%m, 100%e, 97%w +bdckm EX- (-12h, 0.2%) (+75m, 1.1%)
Director Klendathu, Ixteolotl Teotl booms from near the heights of attainment, "Finally a topic on which you have first hand experience, Xaden."
7040h, 92%m, 100%e, 97%w +bdckm EX- (+20h, 0.3%) (-15m, 0.2%)

7020h, 87%m, 100%e, 96%w +bdckm EX- (-20h, 0.3%) (+75m, 1.1%)
Guardian Xaden Ashture, Song of the Lightbringer booms from near the heights of attainment, "Indeed, Klendathu, I've dealth with morons from Ashtan since I was but a tot."
7040h, 87%m, 99%e, 96%w +bdckm EX- (+20h, 0.3%) (-15m, 0.2%)

(PP)5060h, 99%m, 100%e, 97%w +bdckmHSV EX- godfeelings
You are:
True disfavoured by Sartan for under 5 Achaean months (which is about 5 days).

After Sartan personally killing defensive parties, crusade groups and whatnot, I think Sartan is overstepping his game here. Eleusis is down on actual fighters, because of internal power struggles, and Sartan's actions have brought morale to an absolute minimum. I'm absolutely fine with RP consequences, burn the forests, destroy Eleusis time after time for not responding to Mhaldor terms. But actually disabling my offense in sentinel (no more truemorph, enrage, wolf pet, skullbash, impale, doublestrike, and extirpate to name a few) for FIVE RL days, I think he's crossed a line. I think the TDF is unreasonable, given for what was said, after we were provoked for the nth time. To my opinion, I was polite and respectful. The Achaea discord wasn't agreeing with me, but after being told to hang myself irl I don't take them very seriously anymore. I'm particularly curious to the opinions of @Makarios @Nicola on the matter.
GreothDochithaZbacoRangorOgnogWicellaExelethrilPrythe
«13456

Comments

  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2017
    He'd not have gotten a TDF if eleusis had gotten the clue and stopped talking shit in shouts to him a while ago. The 'crusade wipe out' was for Rangor talking shit, the 'raid defence group' was literally a bunch of Eleusians decidedly not engaging us while we extermed blackforest (and thus not really a defence party, is it?) while andraste talked shit. Then you did this.

    5 year old children learn that continued bad behaviour leads to escalating punishment. I'm not sure why we, as a playerbase, struggle with it.

    As I said in Discord, too, there's an actual history of Eleusis/Oakstone enemying Sartan in the past. He reacted much more violently than this back then, lol. If you're a forestal trying to engage a god, shouldn't you at least be expected to have basic knowledge of past history with them?

    Everyone's like 'oh we want more god rp!!' but not when it's negative to them.
    Lucianus
  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,526 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You enemied a god, didn't call him Lord in shouts, and didn't capitalize a "You".

    You're lucky he didn't kill all of Eleusis, destroy all your rooms, and exterminate every forest in the game.

    You don't get to do that and talk to gods like that. Cringe worthy log. 

    TyamatLucianusAileaXias
  • IssamIssam Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 192 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Five day TDF definitely seems excessive (though I agree some sort of reprisal should absolutely be expected). That's on par with an administrative punishment for breaking rules.

    Prythe
  • CaliraCalira Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 572 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 2017
    The fact that TDF neuters skills seems like the bigger problem here, really. Taking a statistical hit is one thing, but making your character functionally incapable of anything combat-related for the better part of a week is silly.
    RangorZeniiWicellaPrythe
  • CyrCyr Member Posts: 169 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'd tend to agree that a 5 day TDF is excessive, but I really don't think much of the rest was that bad in context.

    Dunn tells you, "I hate you."
    (Party): You say, "Bad plan coming right up."
    WicellaPrythe
  • LyrinLyrin Member Posts: 193 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 2017
    Anyone with a modicum of sense can see that the 5 day TDF doesn't balance the IG need to chastise someone for talking back to a god and the OOC need to ensure that an environment for healthy and fun conflict is maintained.   

    I'm sure it's difficult to predict how these things will play out for anyone, particularly gods when playing the game.   I'm sure the TDF will be favourably reviewed (lol punz).
    WicellaPrythe
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,263 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2017
    I've fought with the skill malus before. It's workable most of the time, at least in group combat. Coamenel's also a dragon, which means he can just fight in dragon and still have most of his combat abilities. Plenty of ways to deal with this in-game (either before or after the fact) before running to the forums to, what, tattle as if this was done clandestinely?

    The entire theme of this war seems to be that people seem incapable of making the link between action and consequence.
  • SolnirSolnir Member Posts: 749 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    The title of this thread says a lot. He didn't title it "Mhaldor vs Eleusis" or even "Sartan vs Me". It's "Sartan vs. Eleusis", which leads me to believe that at least one Eleusian has taken Sartan's actions as a personal dislike of Eleusis, not just an IC "lol we kill you" that it should be. 
    I don't know if he's right or not, not my place, just how I'm interpreting this thread.
  • IssamIssam Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 192 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I think that gods have to be powerful and have some bite to the role - if players (and characters) aren't afraid of gods, then the role itself is neutered and everyone suffers for it. Killing rooms of players is expected and punishing disrespect like that is almost required to keep the air of the role intact. Removing skills should be reserved for something beyond the scope of IC punishments, though, because the easiest solution is just to not play until the punishment wears off, and that also benefits no one; it also discourages future, similar interactions because of the looming threat of losing skills like this.

    Iniar
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,341 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tdf is bullshit.  With that said, email the VOLUNTEER in question and explain to them how much bullshit it is.  They might just not know.   I think my 10 day one(thanks, unnamed divine, really was expecting more out of that after sucking it)  was like 1100 credits worth of skills and artie malus or some shit. Have tdf take a level or some crap.  Hell, shrub so they don't even have to test out their level of uselessness.   
    ExelethrilPrythe
  • ReysonReyson Member Posts: 652 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited June 2017
    Stop messing with Sartan -.-

    ETA: look up the Einstein quote about the definition of insanity. 
  • CaelanCaelan Member Posts: 2,319 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Agree w @Cooper and @Antonius and @Kiet.  

    I cant stand the way mortals talk to Divine like that and ( then usually run here to bitch about RP..)  you just disrespected a God.  If it was your Order that is one thing... this was calling a Divine out in front of all of Sapience.

     In this case the TDF miiight be much (1 day would suffice) but everything else shows a shit ton of restraint from a God (ig).  

    Kiet
  • AndrasteAndraste Member Posts: 33 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Cooper said:
    You enemied a god, didn't call him Lord in shouts, and didn't capitalize a "You".

    You're lucky he didn't kill all of Eleusis, destroy all your rooms, and exterminate every forest in the game.

    You don't get to do that and talk to gods like that. Cringe worthy log. 
    Continue to take your meds as prescribed, and it'll be all right.

    Elphaba
  • CoamenelCoamenel Member Posts: 188 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Just to clarify: I was expecting Sartan to punish me, in fact, I would be disappointed if he hadn't done so. But taking away basically my main class skills like that for nearly a full week is just too much. I also already said here and in discord that I -expect- mhaldor to destroy us and the forests, I'm not complaining they are bringing consequences to Eleusis for ignoring their terms so long whatsoever.

    I would've been fine with a tdf for a day, con set to somethine really low like 5 for a few days or whatever. But the level of constraint plus the duration is a pretty strong punishment given the impact vs what was said (I did miss capitalizing a 'Y' there, that was unintended btw, as you can see the last You IS capitalized). Also I was pretty much burnt to the ground on discord for using 'my dear Sartan', I didn't think that would be condescending so I'll take that as a lessons learned.

    Also, like the admins probably already are aware of, Eleusis is being torn up by internal bickering. It's been going on for a pretty long while now and it's starting to reach a critical point, numbers of players online are dropping (at least during my play times), players are leaving, and the council is divided on almost every little thing. Let's just say I'm hoping to receive a new Matron soon (and since gods are apparently able to draw up their own rule book, I'm hoping for a real bitchy Artemis here > RIP Mhaldor), so we can get a focus on something else instead of our internal bickering and political schemes.
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,296 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2017
    Not sure what you expected when referring to a Divinity with "my dear", especially a hostile one. I don't think anyone in Targossas would ever consider even in their wildest dreams addressing Deucalion with "dear" and we're supposed to be his servants and trusted soldiers.

    At this point though, I'd say Eleusis has well surpassed the Shallam threshold for factions that need to be absolutely turfed and remade from scratch.

    That being said, props to demon-dad for being a proper antagonist character. Wish we saw more of those around.
    SiduriAnariaXias
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,169 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    279AF: Sartan, God of Evil, performs an act of extermination within the sacred confines of the Temple of Gaia. In retaliation He is enemied to the Forest. His minions, The Order of Evil, begin to decimate and burn the forests of Sapience. The Sentinels and Druids react by banning the sale or gift of all herbs, ointments, and elixirs to all Sapience. The Sorcerers Guild bans all enchantments using kola in a gesture of support for the forest folk and their cause.

    Sartan is probably like the only God who gets himself enemied to orgs >_>



    UtianimaDochithaKietSaeva
  • AntidasAntidas Member Posts: 1,504 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm with @Antonius on this one. I know a couple years ago I threw a big fit over a TDF I got for reasons I don't even remember anymore, purely because it took away my class skills. I've always been firmly in the camp that divine TDFs need to have a different effect from administration TDFs. Its one thing for an admin TDF to take away your class skills in response to some rule you've broken or something you've done wrong. Its another thing to make the game less enjoyable ,or for some people nearly unplayable (serpent with transcretion as trans skill sucked with TDF) for an IC action that, while absolutely deserved some form of repercussions, didn't warrant something on this level.

    I said this before, but I'll ask @Makarios @Nicola @Tecton again: I really think the game would be well served by thinking up some other effect for a God-given TDF rather than having it be the exact same as an admin-given one.

    AustereDochitha
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,296 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Could honestly just drop the skill malus from TDF and leave the rest. Not really sure why that still exists.
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 3,114 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    5 day TDFs are considered harsh punishment?


    Damn how times have changed...



    Anyone remember Original Babel's good ol' horribly painful spirit-shattering punishments? I sure do.
    Caelan
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,341 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Asmodron said:
    5 day TDFs are considered harsh punishment?


    Damn how times have changed...



    Anyone remember Original Babel's good ol' horribly painful spirit-shattering punishments? I sure do.
    Any punishment that is a result of ic actions that the best recourse for is simply "don't do combat" is a bad punishment. At this point in my life, you hand me a 5 day tdf and I'm gonna go play Xbox. It's an unoriginally harsh deprivation of basic combat necessities.  My tree balance was 22 seconds during mine.  Like.. damn
    AntidasRangorOgnog
  • AntidasAntidas Member Posts: 1,504 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Austere said:
    Asmodron said:
    5 day TDFs are considered harsh punishment?


    Damn how times have changed...



    Anyone remember Original Babel's good ol' horribly painful spirit-shattering punishments? I sure do.
    Any punishment that is a result of ic actions that the best recourse for is simply "don't do combat" is a bad punishment. At this point in my life, you hand me a 5 day tdf and I'm gonna go play Xbox. It's an unoriginally harsh deprivation of basic combat necessities.  My tree balance was 22 seconds during mine.  Like.. damn
    This. I just won't log on for 5 days until I can fight properly again.

    AustereJonathin
  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,539 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    TDF's are so... boring and unthoughtful. Doesn't take any imagination to execute. We have unique insta kills, divine with no balance loss to make their own (Pandora hitting 50 fashions and obliterating instantly was amusing) and mortals thrown into aggressive mobs, or onto the Moon, or depths of the sea. Unique RP retaliation? Just ask Tenebrus and Tarah. It might have taken a few minutes to write up, but surely enveloping him in red fog causing death, or such like wouldn't be too hard?

    Those require thought and some imagination which is what you want from the admin. I'm not going to comment on this war as I'm not involved at all, but just hitting the TDF button seems more like an OOC punishment than an IC one, even though it is IC. As @Antonius said above, the mechanics here are not great. 
    image
    Prythe
  • FrederichFrederich Member Posts: 1,243 @ - Epic Achaean
    -1 all stats, -2 con.  15% more damage.  Skills (certain ones anyways) get shot to shit.

    5 days, especially whenever the city is in dire conflict with another is like going "Hey.  You know how you guys were being crushed before?  GGHF"

    Am I saying he didn't deserve it?  Oh hell no, Coamenel is fuckin dumb IC and is lolz inducing at best.  However, basically just chopping off someone's leg for 5 OOC days is.. kinda harsh.  They don't have an Artemis or Gaia to TF them to counterbalance it.

    Hell, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's not gonna be able to hunt or pvp with that.  Always gotta remember that fine balance between IC punishment and OOC fun.  A 'curse' is one thing (random hell visions/ambient messages that eventually lead to death and/or worse for a few hours).  TDF requires nothing extra put in by the god (which can be a good thing if he's short on time and fucks to give), but doesn't really enhance Coamenel's RP...

    Eh.  It'll work itself out eventually.
    Prythe
  • AsmodronAsmodron Member Posts: 3,114 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited June 2017
    Just so everything is clear here.

    The majority of complaints brought up are about TDFs in  general and how stunting they make gameplay, rather than the individual in question being punished, yes?

    For the first, I can agree TDFs are just a bad form of punishment, however a more 'developed' or 'designed' punishment, such as those historical ones we have seen in the past, requires quite some time to make. We are basically asking of the admin behind Sartan to take some time out to develop some interesting curse or what-not that would properly define the punishment and exhibit the wrath of Sartan. We cant even be sure he has the time to take out to do that.


    I do still agree about TDFs and what they do to gameplay.
This discussion has been closed.