Achaean Raves

Aralaya

If that's the case then group DW shouldn't be nearly as scary, other than sheer numbers doing damage + the one DW capstoning. If I'm understanding it right.

Exelethril

Would you rather have 3 artied dws hitting you or 3 artied INT quick-witted monks disrupting/kaichoking you, that is the question

Solnir

Personally would prefer the dw's. Fuck kai choke spams in group.

Farrah

Aralaya said:

If that's the case then group DW shouldn't be nearly as scary, other than sheer numbers doing damage + the one DW capstoning. If I'm understanding it right.

The others still get a capstone hit but it's substantially weaker. I'm a little curious how much damage people are actually taking from it. Not having a shadow for the person also means less damage. DW group damage has never felt like an issue to me post-degen changes way back.

It being gated behind clumsy and weariness further reduces the burst damage compared to something more upfront like Kai choke. Obviously the affs will stick fast in a large group but those first couple hits are still doing less.

Aralaya

Without shadow it's half, without Attune it doesn't give a specific value in the ab (at least it didn't)

Caelan

Make it like petrify where you have to be the one giving the affs for it to work, no?

Austere

Exelethril said:

Would you rather have 3 artied dws hitting you or 3 artied INT quick-witted monks disrupting/kaichoking you, that is the question

3 artied monks.  Choke automatic holds breath now, so only one of them is getting the big damage spike, unless you're being stupid. The one disrupting is doing zero damage because disrupt isn't a smart aff. Zero room hinder as well, unless the stupid one that stayed tekura decides to brs to give up more damage. Good try, though. 

Exelethril

Bear stance's a thing and disrupt prevents hold breath though.

Asmodron

Gosh these raves are so jovial

Austere

Exelethril said:

Bear stance's a thing and disrupt prevents hold breath though.

Disrupt doesn't prevent auto hold breath, last I checked, and if you read what I said, I included one of them being brs which would reduce damage output further. 

Alyxeri

Exelethril said:

Bear stance's a thing and disrupt prevents hold breath though.

What he means is, you automatically gain the heldbreath defence after being choked, regardless of having balance/eq. Even if you don't have the skill in Survival you get it; lasts the same manner as doing it manually, until you do something that would otherwise drop it. I remember as much from when we fought Crixos in UW, and my system was spamming it, thinking I had heldbreath after the auto-raise put it up.

Ailea

For a moment I sincerely thought I was on rants instead of raves....

Atalkez

After testing, I don't think it needs any changes at all, except possibly better scaling on low vs high strength.

Karren capstone hit at 15 strength did 14.4% to me, Farrah capstone hit at 18 strength did 15.4% to me.

When Farrah had Shadow and capstone, it did 17.3%. 

The big change comes from Attune, which only 1 DW can have at a time.

Not seeing anything unreasonable about these numbers, except that strength is adding next to nothing to the class. It's really no better or worse than a DwC DSL, except that it can't be mitigated as well because of the damage type.

Farrah

Antonius said:

Atalkez said:

Just need to make it so that only one person can get the capstone bonus at a time. A 1 second CD on capstone firing would keep it the way it is for 1v1, while reducing it in group.

That said, the class does do a lot of damage without any spec requirement, which is a fair point to make. 12 strength damage should be less than 16 strength damage imo.

I was thinking somewhere around 2 seconds. That should be short enough that it's not going to affect 1v1 (fastest attack speed for DW is ~2.1, I think), but also long enough that you're not going to get multiple DWs getting a proc per round of attacks if their balances happen to be staggered.

Aegoth said:

I smell classleads

Technically we're due for a round since it's Q1, but I think the last round was late and a lot of the approved classleads still haven't been implemented, so I really don't know when they'll be opening up. I will be adding this to my list of classleads to raise whenever that happens though.

As an FYI, I just tested this, and as I thought, it's basically how it already works, without the wonky timer mechanics. Without shadow attune (which only one DW can have), degen capstone adds about 1% damage total with no shadow and 2% damage with shadow. The bulk of the attack is just base damage (about 15% of Atalkez's health per attack, which doesn't seem outrageous to me).

If you are the one DW who has the shadow attune, you do about 24% without shadow and 34% with shadow. So only a single DW can do near-kai choke level damage, and only with a shadow (which requires some work), and two affs stuck.

Edit: Atalkez is such a ninja.

Kiet

idk how dw works but I've seen people take like 40% hits and (with shadow) over 50% so that doesn't seem like the full picture. shadow is also not really hard to get in extended engagements

Farrah

Kiet said:

idk how dw works but I've seen people take like 40% hits and (with shadow) over 50% so that doesn't seem like the full picture. shadow is also not really hard to get in extended engagements

From the person with the attune, if using cull (slower, higher damage attack) and tooros (room-wide attack on 9ish second class bal), yes. Tooros hits yourself and all your allies, too. It's still not a stacking issue, since only one person can do it. As in, everything people have been saying in this thread is completely wrong.

Atalkez

That is with Attune, which only one DW can get, which we've said several times now. 40-50% shots would be using Cull, Degen capstone, Shadow, Attune and Tooros.

A capstone hit, with shadow, did 17% using Reap. Attune is what gives the big spike, and again, only one DW can benefit from that at a time.

It's fine the way it is.

Penwize

Likely also with sensitivity, since DW probably stacks sensi with kelp if they're going bursty I think.

Atalkez

Yeah, but sensi being present isn't something that makes the class any better or worse than another. Everyone that does damage will gain that benefit.

Penwize

Oh, totally, but if you're pointing at a 50% hit and saying it's crazy, sensi being there really changes that context I think.

Kiet

idk, scaling or not there's very few classes that can just casually deliver 50%+ hits while also affing lol. it's basically that and truename.

this while also having basically every form of group utility in the game in some form. it's a ridiculous class for group engagements.

Atalkez

Sure, but that isn't what the conversation has been. The complaint was scaling, which we're simply pointing out is incorrect and doesn't need adjusting.

If you want to nerf that one DW that's able to put out that much DPS, then I agree. I don't agree with changing what the others are able to do, because there simply is no reason to.

Exelethril

Sens + warp/hound does more, I think.

Kiet

Occy isn't delivering affs during that, though. That said, everyone knows DW is just masking that occies are the other absurd group combat class.

Minifie

@Tysandr Incredibly generous and friendly. I had to rave you specifically. I was tearing up at your generosity.

Aralaya

Using Shadow Cull + Tooros to get to those 40-50% damages is not going to be happening every single attack though.
You have Tooros word balance, so there goes however many percent that is (I want to say 5-10%?)
Cull has a longer balance so they can't dish out the damage without tooros as often either.

Maximum damage I've seen myself do with shadow and attune is 30% ever, and by the next one the person had healed a fair amount. (Whether that's with sip ring or not I dunno)

It is bad, but if you can get out of the room the DW loses all pressure and has to build up their affs again for capstone in the first place. (If tumble doesn't go through distort it should, it goes through everything else afaik)

Dunn

Preempt or use your legs. 

Aralaya

Dunn said:

Preempt or use your legs. 

Stop making sense, trying to not get my main class nerfed into the ground >.<

Edit: Also, I thought preempt didn't follow on tumble?
If it does then I need to start preempting more...

Edit Edit: Holy shit it does!

Alyxeri

I don't think he's trying to get it nerfed. He's saying it doesn't lose all their momentum just because your target moves away- you can easily chase them. Unless it's in an enemy city then you prob gon' hit totems at some point. Or get picked off.

Distort's a room hinder, so everything that hits piety will hit distort.
Preempt follows everything that isn't fly, doesn't move more than one room (gallop/dash/sprint) and doesn't make you hit a wall (pretty sure it doesn't bypass walls.. never actually tested that one part)

Solnir

Tooros is 8%.