Achaean Raves

Mishgul

You don't even have to press any buttons to sip health.

Jovolo

You can do it with almost any class, now, and from what I know/hear a lot of people do that. A lot of people that are considered good or even great. That's where the basis of my comment comes from, but it's the natural evolution of automation. It had to get to that stage eventually.

Merador

Exelethril said:

Rom said:

Jovolo said:

Tbf, no one is good at combat anymore. Just good at scripting/copying scripts.

I feel like you're being overly pessimistic with this. Maybe overestimating the amount of automation that's going on out there, or maybe  I'm underestimating it. Either way I know that there's a lot of people out there fighting, learning, and having fun without any of their offense being picked or chosen for them. They're putting the effort in, and they are becoming 'good' or have been good for a while. If you don't consider them good, or are also including basic curing as part of the issue then whatever, but I think you have been painting a sort of depressing view of modern combat.

That being said, the amount of people who can hold down their auto-offense key until you're dead is higher than it should be (0 please). We just have to hope those people get bored from effectively stomping on the spirit of the game.

Trigger : ally flings aeon @ x (current target/no speed) / queue send("something asthma/anorexia") @ x

*uninstalls Achaea*

Also, see : current incarnation of occultist, can press 1 button to kill anyone.

I really don't understand why you're so bitter about Occultist for being playable with one button. There isn't a class in the game which can't be reduced to one button. I'm not necessarily questioning whether Occultist is easier than others to script, but I also don't doubt that anybody who currently uses one button offence for Occultist couldn't easily do the same for virtually any class. From what I can tell, Seragorn for example, has a very impressive Occultist offence scripted. I would be quite surprised if he couldn't do the exact same thing for Serpent or Knight.

Mishgul

In my experience, offensive systems are much easier to write than defensive systems, or were before the illusion change. Curing and defense tracking is messy.

Jovolo

Merador said:

Exelethril said:

Rom said:

Jovolo said:

Tbf, no one is good at combat anymore. Just good at scripting/copying scripts.

I feel like you're being overly pessimistic with this. Maybe overestimating the amount of automation that's going on out there, or maybe  I'm underestimating it. Either way I know that there's a lot of people out there fighting, learning, and having fun without any of their offense being picked or chosen for them. They're putting the effort in, and they are becoming 'good' or have been good for a while. If you don't consider them good, or are also including basic curing as part of the issue then whatever, but I think you have been painting a sort of depressing view of modern combat.

That being said, the amount of people who can hold down their auto-offense key until you're dead is higher than it should be (0 please). We just have to hope those people get bored from effectively stomping on the spirit of the game.

Trigger : ally flings aeon @ x (current target/no speed) / queue send("something asthma/anorexia") @ x

*uninstalls Achaea*

Also, see : current incarnation of occultist, can press 1 button to kill anyone.

I really don't understand why you're so bitter about Occultist for being playable with one button. There isn't a class in the game which can't be reduced to one button. I'm not necessarily questioning whether Occultist is easier than others to script, but I also don't doubt that anybody who currently uses one button offence for Occultist couldn't easily do the same for virtually any class. From what I can tell, Seragorn for example, has a very impressive Occultist offence scripted. I would be quite surprised if he couldn't do the exact same thing for Serpent or Knight.

It's just that Occultist also happens to be very strong. The entire method of achieving an Unravel is based around stacking a quantity of afflictions, and thus affliction redundancy is more prevalent than it is in other classes, where it's the "quality" - or rather, the specificity - of afflictions that matter. By removing any redundancy with effective affliction tracking, synergised with Occultist's very high speed of which is harder for a human to emulate a script with than say Apostate of whom has a significantly slower and more simple affliction output, and this altogether means that a scripted offence makes you difficult to defend against. I believe it is still the fastest affliction class in the game if you throw a torc in.

TL;DR - A scripted Occultist offence pronounces the issue more than it would with the vast majority of other classes. There are few I'd argue are on the same level. 

Merador

Jovolo said:

Merador said:

Exelethril said:

Rom said:

Jovolo said:

Tbf, no one is good at combat anymore. Just good at scripting/copying scripts.

I feel like you're being overly pessimistic with this. Maybe overestimating the amount of automation that's going on out there, or maybe  I'm underestimating it. Either way I know that there's a lot of people out there fighting, learning, and having fun without any of their offense being picked or chosen for them. They're putting the effort in, and they are becoming 'good' or have been good for a while. If you don't consider them good, or are also including basic curing as part of the issue then whatever, but I think you have been painting a sort of depressing view of modern combat.

That being said, the amount of people who can hold down their auto-offense key until you're dead is higher than it should be (0 please). We just have to hope those people get bored from effectively stomping on the spirit of the game.

Trigger : ally flings aeon @ x (current target/no speed) / queue send("something asthma/anorexia") @ x

*uninstalls Achaea*

Also, see : current incarnation of occultist, can press 1 button to kill anyone.

I really don't understand why you're so bitter about Occultist for being playable with one button. There isn't a class in the game which can't be reduced to one button. I'm not necessarily questioning whether Occultist is easier than others to script, but I also don't doubt that anybody who currently uses one button offence for Occultist couldn't easily do the same for virtually any class. From what I can tell, Seragorn for example, has a very impressive Occultist offence scripted. I would be quite surprised if he couldn't do the exact same thing for Serpent or Knight.

It's just that Occultist also happens to be very strong. The entire method of achieving an Unravel is based around stacking a quantity of afflictions, and thus affliction redundancy is more prevalent than it is in other classes, where it's the "quality" - or rather, the specificity - of afflictions that matter. By removing any redundancy with effective affliction tracking, synergised with Occultist's very high speed of which is harder for a human to emulate a script with than say Apostate of whom has a significantly slower and more simple affliction output. I believe it is still the fastest affliction class in the game if you throw a torc in, and this altogether means that a scripted offence makes you difficult to defend against. 

TL;DR - A scripted Occultist offence pronounces the issue more than it would with the vast majority of other classes. There are few I'd argue are on the same level. 

I don't think that that's the line of argument that Exelethril is presenting, though, when he says that Occultists can "press 1 button to kill anyone". All that that statement is saying is that strong classes can beat anybody. You could have made the exact same point about Tekura monks a year ago, given that that was also doable with one button.

Rom

I feel like when a class has really fast singular afflictions (instill/torc coupled with a secondary balance system, sentinel handaxes, swift curses, whatever) opposed to slower doubled up ones, automated afflicting becomes a lot more useful/potent.
When you're being bombarded every second by a perfectly chosen affliction it feels much more frustrating than evileyes clocking in at 2 seconds, but also more difficult for a human to achieve. When you have slower affliction attacks it's easier to watch their curing and adapt in my experience, and in that sense you benefit less from automated afflicting because it is more achieveable.

Also, Occultists don't lock, which I feel is the biggest part. Rather than sticking these almost intangible afflictions on you they are weighing you down with things like lethargy and stupidity which actively frustrate you and make you weaker. Sentinel would be the same, on-demand paralysis weighted above all else - not fun!

Natural progression for sure, Jovolo, but unhealthy as I'm sure you feel. I'm not sure how we can address it though if at all. Like I said, hope that they bore themselves out of fashion.

Edit: I take too long to write posts, this was meant to be after Merador's original.

Merador

Rom said:

I feel like when a class has really fast singular afflictions (instill/torc coupled with a secondary balance system, sentinel handaxes, whatever) opposed to slower doubled up ones, automated afflicting becomes a lot more useful/potent.
When you're being bombarded every second by a perfectly chosen affliction it feels much more frustrating than evileyes clocking in at 2 seconds, but also more difficult for a human to achieve. When you have slower affliction attacks it's easier to watch their curing and adapt in my experience, and in that sense you benefit less from automated afflicting because it is more achieveable.

Also, Occultists don't lock, which I feel is the biggest part. Rather than sticking these almost intangible afflictions on you they are weighing you down with things like lethargy and stupidity which actively frustrate you and make you weaker. Sentinel would be the same, on-demand paralysis weighted above all else - not fun!

Natural progression for sure, Jovolo, but unhealthy as I'm sure you feel. I'm not sure how we can address it though if at all. Like I said, hope that they bore themselves out of fashion.

I'm not disagreeing that scripted Occultist looks strong, I just imagine that Exelethril's frustration is targetted at that class because it's the only one he's considered possible or advantageous. I would imagine that Sentinel would be just as strong with a one button offence, given that you have access to limb breaks, very fast high quality afflictions and proper lock potential. More often than not you'll see Sentinels overlapping curare or prefarar for no reason beyond their inability to account for the speed.

The same could probably be said of a handful of other classes like Priest, Bard or Shaman, all of which would take an average fighter to a very strong fighter with properly managed afflictions. Ernam's suggested that he could truelock/kill most people as BM with a one button offence and I imagine that his current SnB stuff is configured to work with one button. 

Edit: My only gripe with Exelethril's "Occultist is a one button offence class" is that it seems to suggest that only Occultist can be solved that way and only Occultists benefit from it. That's not true. If you want to argue about the strength of the class itself when used to its full potential (either by very skilled play or automation) then that's a separate issue in and of itself.

Rom

Right, I now see your intended point after your second post. I can't speak for Exelethril in that case, but I will assume that it's because it's the only one he's knowingly encountered.

Exelethril

@Merador : That's not entirely true. Certain classes need you to adapt your offense according to the situation (aka. think). I guess it depends on the knight and whether he/she limb preps too, could be wrong though.

For occultist, it's straightforward : stack affs -> cadmus -> stack more affs -> hecate and they can pretty much hinder the offense of any other class(stupidity+rixil/clumsiness/lethargy) along with the need to actively run away based on the speed an occultist reaches its end game versus any other class.

So that was exactly the line of argument I was presenting, a scripted occultist offense is more effective than every(?) other classes' scripted offense based on how the class was designed.

Herenicus

These aren't raves

Merador

Exelethril said:

@Merador : That's not entirely true. Certain classes need you to adapt your offense according to the situation (aka. think). I guess it depends on the knight and whether he/she limb preps too, could be wrong though.

For occultist, it's straightforward : stack affs -> cadmus -> stack more affs -> hecate and they can pretty much hinder the offense of any other class(stupidity+rixil/clumsiness/lethargy) along with the need to actively run away based on the speed an occultist reaches its end game versus any other class.

So that was exactly the line of argument I was presenting, a scripted occultist offense is more effective than every(?) other classes' scripted offense based on how the class was designed.

You're right in saying that Occultist looks easier to script than most classes, because its strategy is often the same. I disagree with your first point, though, in that I don't think that there's anything in the game (beyond interpreting language) that a system can't be programmed to do in advance. If you're smart enough and can code well enough, then what scenario could possibly occur that you couldn't code for in advance? Why wouldn't a serpent be able to code an offence that can adapt to any set of curing priorities and deliver the right affs in the right order? As I said before, I'm not arguing about whether Occultist is easy or difficult to script, just that I imagine that any class in the game can be done in much the same way given time and effort. 

Jovolo

The issue also lies in counter-play. If you decrease the margin for human error by scripting the offence for a class that has a high affliction output, then naturally you decrease the opportunity for counter-play. This can create a problem, and as far as I can tell it has created a problem, where you literally can't fight Occultists. 

The defensive counter-play to Occultists is as such: Leave the room. That's literally all I can think of that counters the momentum of Occultist offence. Considering the pace with which an Occultist's offence snowballs, this means you have to leave the room constantly in order to not die to an Occultist. Throw in the additional dilemma of having to contend with Tentacles unless you want to spend credits on a Ring of Flying. The only classes that can reasonably compete with these defensive counter-play requirements are Serpent and Blademaster. You could argue Jester, too, but that's it.

The offensive counter-play to Occultists is as such: Crippled arms, disloyalty, paralysis. I can't really comment on the state of the new knight classes, but from what I know of dual-cutting, sticking asthma and disloyalty was a fair counter-play option against slower Occultists. When you're fighting more artefacted ones, you literally cannot pull it off quick enough before you're stuck with lethargy. Pay heed to the fact that they also have passive curing and can prioritise paralysis for a tree tattoo, it's not an easy job to just stuck disloyalty or paralysis anymore. Speed was also nerfed significantly for runewardens, so you probably need L3 scimitars to have a chance at using this strategy. So that leaves almost no offensive counter-play options either.

I genuinely do not know what you do to stop/fight against Occultists nowadays if they script their offence, which is where I imagine Exelethril's frustration stems from. I, of course, don't play anymore though, so I might be missing some change or w/e. I don't see many arguments to the contrary though. 

Woah, sorry for derailing. I almost forgot this was Raves for a sec.

Ignore how many times I said literally in that. I don't want to process more words right now.

Herenicus

Spent a very enjoyable evening in the Siorraidh with @Aegoth, @Jhui, @Kaevan, @Kei, @Khairt, @Melodie, @Saeva, @Tahquil, @Taraus, @Taraza, and Loora, the scholar. 

Saeva

Was a really fun time. @Khairt, thanks for your patience. Story time is my favourite time.

Melodie

Yes, it was a really awesome time. We don't get to hang outside of Mhaldor with any kind of certainty ever for conversations for long, so this was a real treat.

Ruth

I wish I could've attended, but it was time for lunch. So I got to think about the story time I missed as I ate half of a pork knuckle and mashed potatoes.

Kresslack

Ruth said:

I wish I could've attended, but it was time for lunch. So I got to think about the story time I missed as I ate half of a pork knuckle and mashed potatoes.

It's ok, I missed it too, off being a responsible adult and all that nonsense. I miss everything.

Antidas

Shout out to Mhaldor for a fun and overall remarkably even raid. Was fun! Sorry if things got a bit overkill at the end of it

Mishgul

I don't share your opinion. We outnumbered you 1 to 1.

Melodie

Antidas said:

Shout out to Mhaldor for a fun and overall remarkably even raid. Was fun! Sorry if things got a bit overkill at the end of it

It was a lot of fun! Though getting chased out in the world after I ducked out for the latter half was confusing.  

Thank goodness for tumble!

Kresslack

Melodie said:

Antidas said:

Shout out to Mhaldor for a fun and overall remarkably even raid. Was fun! Sorry if things got a bit overkill at the end of it

It was a lot of fun! Though getting chased out in the world after I ducked out for the latter half was confusing.  

Thank goodness for tumble!

Ducked out during a raid? Report to Red Square, right meow!

Melodie

Some of us had to work in six hours.  

Kresslack

Melodie said:

Some of us had to work in six hours.  

That's why I'm all jacked up on Mt. Dew Monster.

I'd like to give a shout-out to the Insidium as a whole, for being a very fun and inspiring House to be a part of. Not only that, the participants in the Crucible are kicking ass, so well done @Ast, @Zulah, and @Kitiara for representing.

Jurixe

@Cirana is my never ending rave.



Came for me today and I laughed when I saw it!

Kresslack

Great. I'll never see Jurixe the same again.

Silvarien

I was helping @Glorissa design a zen garden room, and I don't know much about zen gardens. Totally at random, @Halos earrings to me, is slightly disoriented because of where he's at, leaves, and then it turns out he knows a ton more about zen gardens than me, and with his kindness and patience we were able to design the zen garden for this person. The way this all came together was pretty random, though. I think if he hadn't come in there, that room would have ended up as a polar vortex of crap.

Thanks for helping us, @Halos !

Trilliana

Silvarien said:

I was helping @Glorissa design a zen garden room, and I don't know much about zen gardens. Totally at random, @Halos earrings to me, is slightly disoriented because of where he's at, leaves, and then it turns out he knows a ton more about zen gardens than me, and with his kindness and patience we were able to design the zen garden for this person. The way this all came together was pretty random, though. I think if he hadn't come in there, that room would have ended up as a polar vortex of crap.

Thanks for helping us, @Halos !

I guess I'm not designing it for her... oh well. 

Silvarien

@Trilliana : I didn't know you were in contact with her about designing the room. Didn't mean to take coin out of your pocket. >.< I did it for free, like I normally do. I am really sorry, I wouldn't have done that if I knew. She didn't tell me.

I designed one room, but she needs two. I could tell her to get your help with the other one.

Balynne

Bambam (male Troll).

He is 18 years old, having been born on the 22nd of Phaestian, 659 years after the fall of the 

Seleucarian Empire.

Bambam is a troll. Omg. Awesome.