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Comments
Saying to someone, IC, 'You should shoot to chose a race that has a base of 15 str and pick the trait that gives you +1 if you're going to be a knight,' versus saying, 'Trolls, Satyrs, and Xorans all have greater strength than the mortal races, and taking improved physique makes them even more dangerous' are different things.
Saying 'That did 56% of my max health,' versus saying 'That half killed me,' are different things.
If you give the exact numbers for bashing DPS, I guarantee people'll be saying: 'Well, Runewardens with a forged sword and 17 str will be doing X DPS, versus shaman with 16 int doing Y DPS,' and that, to me, sounds like a horrible addition to the game.
The more you encourage people to use numbers by making them available, the more they'll do it, because it's faster and easier. Like I said in the other thread, I don't care if you go to a clan and measure bashing attack damages with every variable accounted for, and talk about it. Knock yourself out, whatever makes you happy! In my experience (admittedly anectodal), whenever anything to do with numbers that's vaguely related to combat, whether pvp or pve, is released, people talk about it IC a lot, using numbers that are brutally abstract.
Yes, numbers are part of the game. Yes, there are issues of mechanics you can't express without dipping into OOC territory, specially if you're the kind of person that likes to help others out with combat. There's a reason, though, that this kind of thing is largely relegated to parties or clans or even other methods of communication like Skype, and whatnot. Already I've personally experienced much more numbers-chatter than I used to see (or care for), and while I've basically always been in favor of the admins' decisions (except the Pithakhan thing, @Makarios. C'mon, be a pal and get that shit changed
Don't get me wrong- I'm not one of those people that'll chew someone out for saying, 'I was left at 50hp' or anything. It does bug me, though, and I suspect that it might bug a fair amount of people who try pretty hard to create an environment for themselves and others that doesn't feel like any other MMO precisely because it's not a numbers game.
Literally this thread
Your entire argument at this point seems to be that you don't want people to use OOC information in IC channels. Rather than addressing it like any other instance of OOC information in IC channels, you're saying we should prevent the OOC conversation from even happening by deliberately hiding mechanical information, then you go on to contradict yourself by saying...Despite offering me that platitude, you want to prevent me from even having the option to measure bashing damage. Back to my primary point in all this...
I brought this up originally for the express purpose of determining if an artefact was worth the credits it cost. I'm glad I ended up digging into this anyway, because I DID figure out that int was useless for bashing early enough to avoid grabbing L1 Sash first(which was my first instinct, seeing the massive scaling on accentato in pvp). I had almost no chance of finding out about this had older players not happened upon my post in an OOC forum. I would MUCH rather be able to find this information IG via having simple tools available to me, rather than having to rely on veterans in OOC sources any time I'm curious how something works.
I do like the way accentato determines damage now that I understand it, it was just not something I could even perceive from the numbers I had access to at the time, it's not done in a manner that is intuitive and in-line with most mechanics I've dealt with(where obviously magic damage is basically always int-scaling, even against mobs), and the only place it is mentioned officially is in an announce from 100's of posts ago. Had I known then what I know now, L1 Gauntlets would have been a pretty obvious choice for me, and I wouldn't have bothered picking up L1 Rapier until later down the line, if ever.
What you see as intrusive OOC information is what I see as my only means to make sure I'm not spending my very limited credits on something that is relatively useless, or that is silently not working how it should(example: The following was in the same announce that described how Accentato had been changed to work " - Tekura attacks will now always use your strength to calculate damage bonuses, rather than randomly using a stat (or no stat at all).")
I -am- sorry you had trouble picking out an artefact that'd help you, though I'm not sure how emailing or issuing yourself with the question could not have solved it. I don't think the admins have ever held out on the effect of an artefact if you ask them straight up about something in private (I can't recall a single instance of it, maybe it has happened, who knows?).
As for the other thing: people say OOC stuff that are numbers-related in IC channels (even says) all the time as it is, and I think making even more numbers not only available, but front and center (which is what you seem to want), is only going to contribute to that. Sorry we disagree, but I'm not entirely sure pulling back the veil on every bit of numerical data in Achaea is either desirable or healthy, so I'm not sure what to say to you anymore. You think it doesn't harm the atmosphere in-game, and I think it does. I only wrote what I wrote to try to illuminate why some of us don't like the idea, but it's become pretty clear you're kind of dug-down on this, so I guess it's better to just agree to disagree.
Once again, how is using issue me or emailing about an artefact keeping you from getting the information you need? Or asking here? By the way, you want to find out OOC stuff IC? Millisecond or hundredth/thousandth decimal-place numbers aren't exactly IC stuff, even if they're a game mechanic- if you disagree with me on this, fair enough. We have a much different view of what IC information is and isn't, and there's probably no reconciling that.
Further, I'm not entirely sure what you think the solution is. Do you want AB files to list a DPS stat and also everything that'd modify that class's principal bashing attack, ever? Cuz that'd be a ton of minutiae for very small benefit. Or are you looking for a damage-dealt stat that flashes back at you each time you hit something? Either way, you really, really, really can't see why those options are intrusive?
Not to mention, neither of those solutions is specifically an answer to your problem. You had trouble figuring out if an artefact affected your bashing damage, and, again: there are avenues for that.
You've mentioned you feel limiting numbers is a band-aid solution to the inviting-people-to-break-barriers-problem, yes? Then: how is giving a blurt of information that's extraordinarily specific, and throwing it in your face (you can't give information universally without making it pervasive and ubiquitous, that's by definition what you're asking for), not a band-aid solution that's over-the-top for a very specific problem, which is to say, determining if an artefact affects bashing damage or not? Why isn't an individual solution for your problem okay (you tell me, just point them to a help file and deal with it myself, why can't you use emails and issue me for an individual problem?)?
Again, I really am sorry you had a hard time finding out what you wanted to know. I still think you didn't use the right avenues. Like I pointed out, I've yet to hear of an instance where the artefacts email or issue me avenues have failed to give you an answer as to whether X affects Y or not, when it comes to stuff you pay for.
Regarding your continued argument about percentages not being specific enough: this is exactly what I mean when I say that delving deeper and deeper into minute numbers and formulas reduce the appeal of the game. For me (and, I suspect, a pretty big portion of Achaea's playerbase), knowing that an L1 rapier isn't enough to influence my bashing attack is enough. I don't have to know that it does +.003%. The more you divulge this kind of information, the more people are going to obsess over it, and the more it's going to make the game feel less and less like Achaea, and more like something else. Newbies'll be checking out minutiae (in the grand scheme of things, should you get a first-time player worrying about such a minute difference in bashing damage that it amounts to an imperceptible difference by current in-game standards? Probably not.), people'll be making decisions that are further and further from immersive, instead focusing on the mechanical (yes, some people, particularly hardcore pvp'ers already do it, I'm not sure why you want to incentivize everyone who bashes to do it), and so on. I get that you're not going to be swayed, which is fine. I just hope you realize that just because you don't agree with it, that means it's illogical, or silly.
If anyone is upset that people would have to the gall to continue to discuss something after admin give their official stance on the matter, the easiest way to avoid further frustration is to just steer clear of the thread and let it run its course. Fairly simple. This thread will be off the front page within a week or two and you'll be rid of it then.
To make a comparison, this entire debate (in favour of adding what's asked) is about as pointless as the World of Warcraft version of, "If you don't like addons, don't use them."
I'll leave it to you to think about that.
That being said, I don't mind the current setup. I'm fine with bashing damage being only as granular as the % you can do to a small mob.
Thanks for providing so much for me!