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Discussion of transparency

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  • VenderVender Member Posts: 305 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Aegoth said:
    If transparency was such an enormously huge factor in playing a text game, Imp and Aet would have much larger populations
    imp and aet's population cannot be pinned down on one single factor and imp and aet have almost never had a larger population than the flagship that is achaea in the first place even when they were popular.
    spread positivity
    Viho
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2016
    This is kind of a really well-beaten horse, but I'll try one more time to articulate why it is that some people (myself included) feel edgy about Achaea providing an ever-increasing wealth of numerical data can make people in game where the imprecision is actually one of the things that make it great. 

    Saying to someone, IC, 'You should shoot to chose a race that has a base of 15 str and pick the trait that gives you +1 if you're going to be a knight,' versus saying, 'Trolls, Satyrs, and Xorans all have greater strength than the mortal races, and taking improved physique makes them even more dangerous' are different things. 

    Saying 'That did 56% of my max health,' versus saying 'That half killed me,' are different things. 

    If you give the exact numbers for bashing DPS, I guarantee people'll be saying: 'Well, Runewardens with a forged sword and 17 str will be doing X DPS, versus shaman with 16 int doing Y DPS,' and that, to me, sounds like a horrible addition to the game.

    The more you encourage people to use numbers by making them available, the more they'll do it, because it's faster and easier. Like I said in the other thread, I don't care if you go to a clan and measure bashing attack damages with every variable accounted for, and talk about it. Knock yourself out, whatever makes you happy! In my experience (admittedly anectodal), whenever anything to do with numbers that's vaguely related to combat, whether pvp or pve, is released, people talk about it IC a lot, using numbers that are brutally abstract. 

    Yes, numbers are part of the game. Yes, there are issues of mechanics you can't express without dipping into OOC territory, specially if you're the kind of person that likes to help others out with combat. There's a reason, though, that this kind of thing is largely relegated to parties or clans or even other methods of communication like Skype, and whatnot. Already I've personally experienced much more numbers-chatter than I used to see (or care for), and while I've basically always been in favor of the admins' decisions (except the Pithakhan thing, @Makarios. C'mon, be a pal and get that shit changed :(), I don't think it's a stretch to say that the more numbers are provided to the playerbase, the more pervasive discussion of them becomes in-game, and in-character, which is why I, personally, feel a bit edgy when people push to get even more data made available. 

    Don't get me wrong- I'm not one of those people that'll chew someone out for saying, 'I was left at 50hp' or anything. It does bug me, though, and I suspect that it might bug a fair amount of people who try pretty hard to create an environment for themselves and others that doesn't feel like any other MMO precisely because it's not a numbers game. 
    Prythe
  • AdeleineAdeleine Member Posts: 233 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    edited October 2016


    Literally this thread
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    ...aren't you the person who's posted, a few times now, 'Don't be a jerk' at people you feel are being dismissive and/or rude at you? :D 
  • BannBann Member Posts: 401 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'd also pay some credits/crowns/burn a trait slot for something that let me see to the tenths position right of the decimal.

  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Anedhel said:
    ...aren't you the person who's posted, a few times now, 'Don't be a jerk' at people you feel are being dismissive and/or rude at you? :D 
    If you haven't caught on, it's one of those, "Do as I say, not as I do," Ernam-lite types. First Reisen, now it's her. They'll get bored eventually.

  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Good grief :( 
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Anedhel said:
    Good grief :( 
    Two ways to read this. Both are apt.
    Huh. Neat.
    BannVessilLeonas
  • VessilVessil Member Posts: 60 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited October 2016

    Anedhel said:

    If you give the exact numbers for bashing DPS, I guarantee people'll be saying: 'Well, Runewardens with a forged sword and 17 str will be doing X DPS, versus shaman with 16 int doing Y DPS,' and that, to me, sounds like a horrible addition to the game.

    As many years as I've spent in Imperian, where this information has been extremely available, I've never seen someone saying this in any sort of IC channel. The few times people blatantly say OOC things in IC channels, they've been responded to quickly and they stopped doing it.

    Your entire argument at this point seems to be that you don't want people to use OOC information in IC channels. Rather than addressing it like any other instance of OOC information in IC channels, you're saying we should prevent the OOC conversation from even happening by deliberately hiding mechanical information, then you go on to contradict yourself by saying...
    Anedhel said:

    Like I said in the other thread, I don't care if you go to a clan and measure bashing attack damages with every variable accounted for, and talk about it. Knock yourself out, whatever makes you happy!

    Despite offering me that platitude, you want to prevent me from even having the option to measure bashing damage. Back to my primary point in all this...

    I brought this up originally for the express purpose of determining if an artefact was worth the credits it cost. I'm glad I ended up digging into this anyway, because I DID figure out that int was useless for bashing early enough to avoid grabbing L1 Sash first(which was my first instinct, seeing the massive scaling on accentato in pvp). I had almost no chance of finding out about this had older players not happened upon my post in an OOC forum. I would MUCH rather be able to find this information IG via having simple tools available to me, rather than having to rely on veterans in OOC sources any time I'm curious how something works.

    I do like the way accentato determines damage now that I understand it, it was just not something I could even perceive from the numbers I had access to at the time, it's not done in a manner that is intuitive and in-line with most mechanics I've dealt with(where obviously magic damage is basically always int-scaling, even against mobs), and the only place it is mentioned officially is in an announce from 100's of posts ago. Had I known then what I know now, L1 Gauntlets would have been a pretty obvious choice for me, and I wouldn't have bothered picking up L1 Rapier until later down the line, if ever.

    What you see as intrusive OOC information is what I see as my only means to make sure I'm not spending my very limited credits on something that is relatively useless, or that is silently not working how it should(example: The following was in the same announce that described how Accentato had been changed to work " - Tekura attacks will now always use your strength to calculate damage bonuses, rather than randomly using a stat (or no stat at all).")
    Aethele
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    How is being fine with percentages being announced 'preventing' you from getting bashing damages? I'm really not sure how my not being comfortable with introducing more and more numbers to the game is a personal affront, either, and while I appreciate your Imperian experience, this is a brutal, simple fact: we're not playing Imperian.

    I -am- sorry you had trouble picking out an artefact that'd help you, though I'm not sure how emailing or issuing yourself with the question could not have solved it. I don't think the admins have ever held out on the effect of an artefact if you ask them straight up about something in private (I can't recall a single instance of it, maybe it has happened, who knows?).

    As for the other thing: people say OOC stuff that are numbers-related in IC channels (even says) all the time as it is, and I think making even more numbers not only available, but front and center (which is what you seem to want), is only going to contribute to that. Sorry we disagree, but I'm not entirely sure pulling back the veil on every bit of numerical data in Achaea is either desirable or healthy, so I'm not sure what to say to you anymore. You think it doesn't harm the atmosphere in-game, and I think it does. I only wrote what I wrote to try to illuminate why some of us don't like the idea, but it's become pretty clear you're kind of dug-down on this, so I guess it's better to just agree to disagree. 
  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sometimes I read arguments like this and want to respond diplomatically like the lovely @Anedhel here. But more and more lately the disagreeable c**t in me kicks in and 'Fuck off back to Imperian' seems like the only reasonable response.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    Shirszae
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2016
    Anedhel really doesn't want you to know that his class does 15.732 more dps than your class, thus keeping more people out of the OP ones.

  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cynlael said:
    Anedhel really doesn't want you to know that his class does 15.732 more dps than your class, thus keeping more people out of the OP ones.
    Without fury, that +2 str makes 16.314, that .572 makes a massive difference. Comparable to lvl1 vs lvl2 rapier.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    Zahan
  • VessilVessil Member Posts: 60 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    Xaden said:
    Sometimes I read arguments like this and want to respond diplomatically like the lovely @Anedhel here. But more and more lately the disagreeable c**t in me kicks in and 'Fuck off back to Imperian' seems like the only reasonable response.
    You're right. Everything done in any IRE game is completely irrelevant to every other IRE game and I should probably never utter the name of any game besides Achaea on this forum, even when the people on the other side of the argument repeatedly bring said games up as examples for their own arguments. Glad you could find a way to inform me of that without showing your inner "disagreeable c**t" as you say. *thumbsup
    Anedhel said:
    How is being fine with percentages being announced 'preventing' you from getting bashing damages?

    The information that is available is not precise enough to even see the difference in damage done between the smithed Rapier and L1 Rapier. You are saying that you do not want any further information available IG. I have explained this part more than once, even in the post that you are referencing, so I'm not sure if there's something I'm not making clear here for you?

    I -am- sorry you had trouble picking out an artefact that'd help you, though I'm not sure how emailing or issuing yourself with the question could not have solved it. I don't think the admins have ever held out on the effect of an artefact if you ask them straight up about something in private (I can't recall a single instance of it, maybe it has happened, who knows?).

    This is entirely my point. You are so averse to the potential that some amount of OOC information may eventually find its way on your screen that you are willing to tell everybody in my situation that it is better off that we have no IG ways to determine this ourselves, and that we have to reach out via OOC means to find this information. Can you not see how that is hypocritical, especially given the "we like players to learn things IG, rather than meta and use OOC knowledge" attitude that everyone here has?

    As for the other thing: people say OOC stuff that are numbers-related in IC channels (even says) all the time as it is...

    Then point them to HELP INSANITY and ask them to stop. Taking this information away from players universally due to the inability of some players to distinguish IC and OOC is an extremely heavy-handed bandaid to a problem that might have alternate, less restrictive solutions.

    Sorry we disagree, but I'm not entirely sure pulling back the veil on every bit of numerical data in Achaea is either desirable or healthy, >>so I'm not sure what to say to you anymore.<<

    Not hyperbole.

    You think it doesn't harm the atmosphere in-game, and I think it does. I only wrote what I wrote to try to illuminate why some of us don't like the idea...

    Yes, I don't think anybody is failing to understand your view on it. It's just that the reasoning you're presenting is not compelling(to myself at least), which is why I am responding to your comments.

    but it's become pretty clear you're kind of dug-down on this, so I guess it's better to just agree to disagree. 

    And it has become clear that you've presented the extent of your argument and don't wish to continue this conversation, so maybe you're right about that.
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Eurgh. Last time!

    Once again, how is using issue me or emailing about an artefact keeping you from getting the information you need? Or asking here? By the way, you want to find out OOC stuff IC? Millisecond or hundredth/thousandth decimal-place numbers aren't exactly IC stuff, even if they're a game mechanic- if you disagree with me on this, fair enough. We have a much different view of what IC information is and isn't, and there's probably no reconciling that. 

    Further, I'm not entirely sure what you think the solution is. Do you want AB files to list a DPS stat and also everything that'd modify that class's principal bashing attack, ever? Cuz that'd be a ton of minutiae for very small benefit. Or are you looking for a damage-dealt stat that flashes back at you each time you hit something? Either way, you really, really, really can't see why those options are intrusive?

    Not to mention, neither of those solutions is specifically an answer to your problem. You had trouble figuring out if an artefact affected your bashing damage, and, again: there are avenues for that. 

    You've mentioned you feel limiting numbers is a band-aid solution to the inviting-people-to-break-barriers-problem, yes? Then: how is giving a blurt of information that's extraordinarily specific, and throwing it in your face (you can't give information universally without making it pervasive and ubiquitous, that's by definition what you're asking for), not a band-aid solution that's over-the-top for a very specific problem, which is to say, determining if an artefact affects bashing damage or not? Why isn't an individual solution for your problem okay (you tell me, just point them to a help file and deal with it myself, why can't you use emails and issue me for an individual problem?)?  

    Again, I really am sorry you had a hard time finding out what you wanted to know. I still think you didn't use the right avenues. Like I pointed out, I've yet to hear of an instance where the artefacts email or issue me avenues have failed to give you an answer as to whether X affects Y or not, when it comes to stuff you pay for. 

    Regarding your continued argument about percentages not being specific enough: this is exactly what I mean when I say that delving deeper and deeper into minute numbers and formulas reduce the appeal of the game. For me (and, I suspect, a pretty big portion of Achaea's playerbase), knowing that an L1 rapier isn't enough to influence my bashing attack is enough. I don't have to know that it does +.003%. The more you divulge this kind of information, the more people are going to obsess over it, and the more it's going to make the game feel less and less like Achaea, and more like something else. Newbies'll be checking out minutiae (in the grand scheme of things, should you get a first-time player worrying about such a minute difference in bashing damage that it amounts to an imperceptible difference by current in-game standards? Probably not.), people'll be making decisions that are further and further from immersive, instead focusing on the mechanical (yes, some people, particularly hardcore pvp'ers already do it, I'm not sure why you want to incentivize everyone who bashes to do it), and so on. I get that you're not going to be swayed, which is fine. I just hope you realize that just because you don't agree with it, that means it's illogical, or silly. 
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2016
    Vessil said:
     It's just that the reasoning you're presenting is not compelling
    Just like the "reasoning" everyone who's arguing for it, has not been compelling (as is evident) to the admin. Which are the only people it needs to be compelling for.

    :3

    AnedhelDaeirShirszae
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This argument has me agreeing with Cynlael a lot, this has to stop :(
  • KlendathuKlendathu Eye of the StormMember Posts: 3,178 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Anedhel said:
    This argument has me agreeing with Cynlael a lot, this has to stop :(
    Fleeeeee...... :D

    Tharos, the Announcer of Delos shouts, "It's near the end of the egghunt and I still haven't figured out how to pronounce Clean-dat-hoo."
  • VessilVessil Member Posts: 60 ✭✭ - Stalwart
    edited October 2016
    Anedhel said:

    Further, I'm not entirely sure what you think the solution is.

    I already said that even just adding a single decimal point of precision to the prompt mobhp tag would be enough for me to see if the jump to L1 made any improvement at all. But I guess, judging from the tone of your last post, seeing that additional .5 after a mob's % would make that already OOC information that is so rudely intruding on your screen even more aggressively immersion breaking. Let's go with that.

    Not to mention, neither of those solutions is specifically an answer to your problem. You had trouble figuring out if an artefact affected your bashing damage, and, again: there are avenues for that.

    Having the above information would absolutely answer my problem. I wouldn't have brought it up if it wouldn't have answered the questions I had. Again, I understand that if I message Makarios he would probably be relatively candid with me about the fact that an L1 has a very limited bashing boost. I've acknowledged that, responded to it, and you're still somehow just repeated the same "you could have asked admin" line as if I had said nothing. Did you just not read what I said? You're obviously frustrated by the fact that other people are still interested in having this conversation(and yes, these people are 100% aware that Makarios has said that his opinion will not be swayed on the matter). If it frustrates you that much, leave the conversation? 

    <The rest of your post>

    Almost every concern you list in the last parts of your post are pretty handily resolved by CONFIG MOBDAMAGE OFF being default. Someone addressed that days ago.
    Cynlael said:
    Vessil said:
     It's just that the reasoning you're presenting is not compelling
    Just like the "reasoning" everyone who's arguing for it, has not been compelling (as is evident) to the admin. Which are the only people it needs to be compelling for.

    :3
    Fortunately, the forums are a place where people can come together to discuss things, regardless of the admin position on the matter. I don't expect anything to change, which is why I didn't press the matter after a single comment directed at Makarios in a post asking a question. Then people obviously decided that it was a conversation they wanted to have. Then I saw the conversation hijacked by bad arguments and people attempting to get other people riled up and I decided I would actually post on the matter. No, nothing is going to change. That has been established. People are still wanting to have a conversation on the matter though, and your smug comment hoping to shut it down is of 0 value to this thread. :3

    If anyone is upset that people would have to the gall to continue to discuss something after admin give their official stance on the matter, the easiest way to avoid further frustration is to just steer clear of the thread and let it run its course. Fairly simple. This thread will be off the front page within a week or two and you'll be rid of it then.
    VenderZahanMorsul
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,296 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The conversation also has zero value anyway, so it's just an exercise in base futility. Which is fine, if you enjoy that sort of thing, I suppose.
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,841 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    False, @Daeir. Lots of changes have been made via forum discussion. Take off your sour-power goggles and contribute
    VenderBann
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,296 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sure, but I doubt any changes are going to come from this discussion.
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2016
    "You can turn it off if you don't want to see it," has been the dumbest argument ever, in the history of all games that have optional things.

    To make a comparison, this entire debate (in favour of adding what's asked) is about as pointless as the World of Warcraft version of, "If you don't like addons, don't use them." 

    I'll leave it to you to think about that.

  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    World of Warcraft? Nerd!
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited October 2016
    Actually, nvm. Klendathu's right, gotta flee :( 
  • AdeleineAdeleine Member Posts: 233 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Cynlael said:
    Anedhel said:
    ...aren't you the person who's posted, a few times now, 'Don't be a jerk' at people you feel are being dismissive and/or rude at you? :D 
    If you haven't caught on, it's one of those, "Do as I say, not as I do," Ernam-lite types. First Reisen, now it's her. They'll get bored eventually.
    Lmao all this passive-aggressiveness
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Adeleine said:
    Cynlael said:
    Anedhel said:
    ...aren't you the person who's posted, a few times now, 'Don't be a jerk' at people you feel are being dismissive and/or rude at you? :D 
    If you haven't caught on, it's one of those, "Do as I say, not as I do," Ernam-lite types. First Reisen, now it's her. They'll get bored eventually.
    Lmao all this passive-aggressiveness
    There was nothing passive about it, friend. :)

    Ahmet
  • KorbenKorben Member Posts: 345 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I wouldn't mind more transparency. Not because I want to min-max my character, but because I have a curiosity about this stuff, I like to know how things work. I loved it when they made lessons in skills visible and gave us the formula for might, for example.

    That being said, I don't mind the current setup. I'm fine with bashing damage being only as granular as the % you can do to a small mob.
    VenderBannPrythe
  • AdeleineAdeleine Member Posts: 233 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Cynlael said:
    There was nothing passive about it, friend. :)
    You're literally doing it right now though.
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Adeleine said:
    Cynlael said:
    There was nothing passive about it, friend. :)
    You're literally doing it right now though.
    'Lul' is the only reply I need to give you anymore. So here is it: LUL.

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