Breaking Credit Market

Cooper

Sarapis said:

Seragorn said:

, I think someone who wants to spend 6 hours hunting up 500k should absolutely be allowed to, and I think its healthy for the game to have those people doing it.  =

Healthy how? How is someone running a script for 6 hours to generate gold while they do something else healthy for the game? I can certainly tell you how it's unhealthy: It devalues the effort of everyone who is not just running a script to generate gold, and virtually everybody who was generating that kind of gold was just running a script to do it. 

You're pretty biased against scripts and coded things. This really needs to change, because if you had your way with scripts all IRE games would not generate even close to enough revenue to keep them open. Your mindset is not healthy for the game. 

You know what having triggers to heal myself and attack when I get balance do? They allow me to help newbies, rp, chat on clans, read help files, answer questions in the forums, give combat advice, look into problems brought up on ACC, among other things. That sounds healthy for the game to me. 

You also seem to think that people push one button, go afk for 30 minutes, and come back to 25k gold. That's not how it works, and feel free to shrub anyone who does that.

Bleak

Back in the day people would help newbies by walking to them and actually helping them. It sounds like they just get in the way of your hunting. I think that attitude is actually more damaging to this game then what Sarapis does.

Personally I'd love this game to go back in time 10 years ago. Scripts where rare and Matsuhama was still there.

Cooper

And you act as if I don't still help newbies in person. Pretty ignorant to say. I hit the gold cap in 2-2.5 hours and am logged in for 4-5 hours daily. 

Bleak

From what you write it seems like you put bashing above everything in this game. You automate it, so you got time to help newbies and read the forums. To me that sounds really weird and autistic.

Sarapis

Cooper said:

Sarapis said:

Seragorn said:

, I think someone who wants to spend 6 hours hunting up 500k should absolutely be allowed to, and I think its healthy for the game to have those people doing it.  =

Healthy how? How is someone running a script for 6 hours to generate gold while they do something else healthy for the game? I can certainly tell you how it's unhealthy: It devalues the effort of everyone who is not just running a script to generate gold, and virtually everybody who was generating that kind of gold was just running a script to do it. 

You're pretty biased against scripts and coded things. This really needs to change, because if you had your way with scripts all IRE games would not generate even close to enough revenue to keep them open. Your mindset is not healthy for the game. 

You have no idea what you're talking about regarding the economy of Achaea. You've made that very clear, repeatedly.

Jinsun

I will say as the cost of stuff and time investment to do things goes up, my interest in Achaea goes down. Last month I made the call between credits in game and overwatch. I chose overwatch because it was a cheaper cost/reward benefit. I am afraid that Achaea will eventually price itself out of my interest as a client. Now I only nondecay things that I like with my membership and haven't bought into any promotion since the first week of that wheel promotion (February I think?)

Jovolo

Sarapis said:

Cooper said:

Sarapis said:

Seragorn said:

, I think someone who wants to spend 6 hours hunting up 500k should absolutely be allowed to, and I think its healthy for the game to have those people doing it.  =

Healthy how? How is someone running a script for 6 hours to generate gold while they do something else healthy for the game? I can certainly tell you how it's unhealthy: It devalues the effort of everyone who is not just running a script to generate gold, and virtually everybody who was generating that kind of gold was just running a script to do it. 

You're pretty biased against scripts and coded things. This really needs to change, because if you had your way with scripts all IRE games would not generate even close to enough revenue to keep them open. Your mindset is not healthy for the game. 

You have no idea what you're talking about regarding the economy of Achaea. You've made that very clear, repeatedly.

Educate him.

Jarrod

Maybe he should educate himself before trying to talk economics...

(and/or read the multiple times Sarapis/Tecton have gone into detail on trends that make it more obvious what's good for the health of the game)

Cooper

Sarapis said:

Cooper said:

Sarapis said:

Seragorn said:

, I think someone who wants to spend 6 hours hunting up 500k should absolutely be allowed to, and I think its healthy for the game to have those people doing it.  =

Healthy how? How is someone running a script for 6 hours to generate gold while they do something else healthy for the game? I can certainly tell you how it's unhealthy: It devalues the effort of everyone who is not just running a script to generate gold, and virtually everybody who was generating that kind of gold was just running a script to do it. 

You're pretty biased against scripts and coded things. This really needs to change, because if you had your way with scripts all IRE games would not generate even close to enough revenue to keep them open. Your mindset is not healthy for the game. 

You have no idea what you're talking about regarding the economy of Achaea. You've made that very clear, repeatedly.

You've said that if you could, you would completely remove triggers and scripting from the game. If you think the games would have been as successful as they are now if you removed scripting from the game, you're crazy.

Bleak

Please @Sarapis remove it and prove him wrong!

Cooper

Jarrod said:

Maybe he should educate himself before trying to talk economics...

(and/or read the multiple times Sarapis/Tecton have gone into detail on trends that make it more obvious what's good for the health of the game)

I'll be happy to eat my hat if you can point out anywhere Sarapis or Tecton have gone into detail on trends that support increased revenue or players upon the removal of triggers and scripts. 

Xaden

Cooper said:

Jarrod said:

Maybe he should educate himself before trying to talk economics...

(and/or read the multiple times Sarapis/Tecton have gone into detail on trends that make it more obvious what's good for the health of the game)

I'll be happy to eat my hat if you can point out anywhere Sarapis or Tecton have gone into detail on trends that support increased revenue or players upon the removal of triggers and scripts. 

And that's a bloody nice hat!

Szanthax

I think it's been said something like 2004 or something was the best year for us.if you look at the way scripting has progressed since that time... I dunno but I imagine Sarapis to go a analytical thinker like me.. put all the data get the answers.

I'd think if game leadership hated scripting combat would have been slowed down by meow. I mean I can only type so fast

Antonius

Best year in terms of what? Best year in terms of revenue was 2014 or 2015, I think. Quality of literally everything else far surpasses 2004 Achaea.

I wouldn't want to say that Achaea would be less successful if automation hadn't been possible, but it wouldn't be the same game or have the same players that it is today.

Szanthax

See I'm old...I remember how I want to

Hyperlith

Aegoth said:

So I say to you: think of the noobs.. the people we try really hard to pretend to care about..  and think of novice retention. 

This sentiment resonated with me. How about a tiered credit market -- within a combination of: below a certain level, number of hours played, and skills level, why not make it possible to CREDIT SELL <X> CREDITS IN NEWCOMER MARKET AT <PRICE>.  Make it irrevocable to recover these credits (but on a timer to return to the seller if there are no buyers), and set a static price. Said Newcomers can only buy a certain number of these credits.

Hyperlith

Cooper said:

Sarapis said:

Cooper said:

Sarapis said:

You have no idea what you're talking about regarding the economy of Achaea. You've made that very clear, repeatedly.

You've said that if you could, you would completely remove triggers and scripting from the game. If you think the games would have been as successful as they are now if you removed scripting from the game, you're crazy.

It feels like this specific argument isn't focused on only one topic (economy, health of economy, scripting, effect of scripting on Achaean economy, etc.), but as someone who plays casually, at best, the fact that IRE has supplied me with a top-notch client (that allows scripting and triggers), belies @Sarapis' alleged aversion to triggers and scripts. 

Hey, and if that's true (Sarapis' feeling on scripts & trigs), the man can change. This is a business, and the gaming world will grind up a deprecated and stagnant approach to text gaming. 

So, I say thank you Nexus!

Jarrod

Um, really quick search:

Sarapis said:

Seems like some administrative dissonance going on here...

Not at all. I gave the order for all IRE games to implement gmcp affliction tracking. It's about helping newbies ramp up into the games, which is our top priority generally, and without it we couldn't really passively show people in the client what afflictions they have. As much as I dislike combat automation of all kinds, we'd let people automate everything in the game if it would solve our newbie acquisition problem.

Sarapis has always been pretty straightforward. He wishes Achaea could exist without automation, but he understands from a business perspective how to use it and how things that  might cause automation to be easier are necessary for newbie retention.

Sarapis

Jovolo said:

Sarapis said:

Cooper said:

Sarapis said:

Seragorn said:

, I think someone who wants to spend 6 hours hunting up 500k should absolutely be allowed to, and I think its healthy for the game to have those people doing it.  =

Healthy how? How is someone running a script for 6 hours to generate gold while they do something else healthy for the game? I can certainly tell you how it's unhealthy: It devalues the effort of everyone who is not just running a script to generate gold, and virtually everybody who was generating that kind of gold was just running a script to do it. 

You're pretty biased against scripts and coded things. This really needs to change, because if you had your way with scripts all IRE games would not generate even close to enough revenue to keep them open. Your mindset is not healthy for the game. 

You have no idea what you're talking about regarding the economy of Achaea. You've made that very clear, repeatedly.

Educate him.

Done so. Search the forum for literally this exact same discussion previously regarding the negative effect that people running scripts to flood the market with gold has on literally everybody else in the game. He's not interested.

Sarapis

Jarrod said:

Um, really quick search:

Sarapis said:

Seems like some administrative dissonance going on here...

Not at all. I gave the order for all IRE games to implement gmcp affliction tracking. It's about helping newbies ramp up into the games, which is our top priority generally, and without it we couldn't really passively show people in the client what afflictions they have. As much as I dislike combat automation of all kinds, we'd let people automate everything in the game if it would solve our newbie acquisition problem.

Sarapis has always been pretty straightforward. He wishes Achaea could exist without automation, but he understands from a business perspective how to use it and how things that  might cause automation to be easier are necessary for newbie retention.

Yep. It's also a much more complicated issue than "automation good" or "automation bad". I couldn't care less about people automating some things. What I do care about are people using automation to hurt other players while benefiting only themselves, and that is exactly what running bashing scripts to generate huge amounts of gold does. If you bash for a coupe hours using a script and generate 50k gold, no problem - that's within the design of the game, and is something a player not scripting could easily do as well. If you run that script for 12 hours a day (we have seen players do exactly this) so you can generate 800k gold/day and then use that gold to drive up prices for everybody else, well, that's not ok and I have not heard a single compelling argument as to why we should allow it. Not one!

Deladan

I do not use a script to bash. I target general target types ie Mhun vertani and just bash and bash and bash and meditate and bash and bash and meditate and bash and.... yeah....  

Cooper

Sarapis said:

Jarrod said:

Um, really quick search:

Sarapis said:

Seems like some administrative dissonance going on here...

Not at all. I gave the order for all IRE games to implement gmcp affliction tracking. It's about helping newbies ramp up into the games, which is our top priority generally, and without it we couldn't really passively show people in the client what afflictions they have. As much as I dislike combat automation of all kinds, we'd let people automate everything in the game if it would solve our newbie acquisition problem.

Sarapis has always been pretty straightforward. He wishes Achaea could exist without automation, but he understands from a business perspective how to use it and how things that  might cause automation to be easier are necessary for newbie retention.

Yep. It's also a much more complicated issue than "automation good" or "automation bad". I couldn't care less about people automating some things. What I do care about are people using automation to hurt other players while benefiting only themselves, and that is exactly what running bashing scripts to generate huge amounts of gold does. If you bash for a coupe hours using a script and generate 50k gold, no problem - that's within the design of the game, and is something a player not scripting could easily do as well. If you run that script for 12 hours a day (we have seen players do exactly this) so you can generate 800k gold/day and then use that gold to drive up prices for everybody else, well, that's not ok and I have not heard a single compelling argument as to why we should allow it. Not one!

Seems like there was a disconnect between what I said and what I intended to mean. What I said was literally this:

You're pretty biased against scripts and coded things. This really needs to change, because if you had your way with scripts all IRE games would not generate even close to enough revenue to keep them open.

Which was not meant to argue that people generating 800k a day and driving up the credit market in the process was good for the game. It was meant that if you had your personal way (which is the removal of triggers, something you've stated in the past that you'd like to do on a personal level but was never feasible to do), the game would suffer greatly, and in my opinion would not have been able to keep operating because without triggers (not just gold making ones) people wouldn't enjoy the game as much. Posting that in a thread about breaking the credit market in reply to something about gold generation was definitely not the best way to do that.

My apologies for not being clear, and further confusing the situation by talking about gold generation directly after that.

I do have to ask, though, if gold generation is such a big issue, why have there been so many things implemented that increase this?

The promotion in July introduced Death's Call and Death's Cape, two things that increased how much gold players can generate.

The paragon contest in July released two paragons that directly increase gold generation speed (the critical hit ones) and one that indirectly allows you to bash more (denizen attacks restoring willpower). 

Deladan

At this point I normally hunt with a few people, mostly novices that I'm leveling up, or Mycen. I hit DR every single day. I hate it. I did manage to make 500K with bashing and selling the talisman pieces in a day. Normally I do about 300k before I say ok just going to try to talisman hunt. I hate hunting but it's the only way I have to get artefacts and stuff for a while.  

Jinsun

Sarapis said:

Jarrod said:

Um, really quick search:

Sarapis said:

Seems like some administrative dissonance going on here...

Not at all. I gave the order for all IRE games to implement gmcp affliction tracking. It's about helping newbies ramp up into the games, which is our top priority generally, and without it we couldn't really passively show people in the client what afflictions they have. As much as I dislike combat automation of all kinds, we'd let people automate everything in the game if it would solve our newbie acquisition problem.

Sarapis has always been pretty straightforward. He wishes Achaea could exist without automation, but he understands from a business perspective how to use it and how things that  might cause automation to be easier are necessary for newbie retention.

Yep. It's also a much more complicated issue than "automation good" or "automation bad". I couldn't care less about people automating some things. What I do care about are people using automation to hurt other players while benefiting only themselves, and that is exactly what running bashing scripts to generate huge amounts of gold does. If you bash for a coupe hours using a script and generate 50k gold, no problem - that's within the design of the game, and is something a player not scripting could easily do as well. If you run that script for 12 hours a day (we have seen players do exactly this) so you can generate 800k gold/day and then use that gold to drive up prices for everybody else, well, that's not ok and I have not heard a single compelling argument as to why we should allow it. Not one!

But credit prices went up more after you put in the cap. How is this even the argument still?

Skarash

so anyone got any ideas to 'fix'  the credit market?

Deladan

Transfer 100000 credits to deladan for 0 gold 

Anze

I was hoping to hear some feedback about @Seragorn's idea re: lessons but it got lost in the "automation" buzzword back-and-forth.

Jarrod

Jinsun said:

But credit prices went up more after you put in the cap. How is this even the argument still?

Do you just make up information to try and make a point? Credit prices dropped from ~9500 avg (hitting 10k on occasion) to ~8500 avg after the cap was dropped to where it's at now.

Anze said:

I was hoping to hear some feedback about @Seragorn's idea re: lessons but it got lost in the "automation" buzzword back-and-forth.

This has been suggested 5+ times before and been denied directly each of those times. They know the suggestion exists, it's not something they think is needed or beneficial overall though.

Jovolo

Why are you so hostile? He was probably just mistaken.

Ahmet

Anze said:

I was hoping to hear some feedback about @Seragorn's idea re: lessons but it got lost in the "automation" buzzword back-and-forth.

It's been mentioned a number of times in the past. I'd very much like to see a flat cost on lessons. Possibly divorce credits and lessons from each other too. However, that's very unlikely to happen any time in the near future. Just brace yourself for the inevitable cfs spike when the new class drops.