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Breaking Credit Market

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  • CobaultCobault Member Posts: 186 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Makarios said:

    That's not a problem.

    This is a very experimental feature. If it doesn't work, there are several more options we can employ to see about addressing speculating as an issue.

    For instance, making all purchases on the market bound is something we're also ok with doing, as is limiting the number of market transactions per person in a day, etc. There are lots of things that can be attempted to get a handle on this. Its a matter of trying most of them to see what's optimal and least intrusive to the general playerbase.


  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Credits currently available for purchase:
         100 credits at  8659 gold per credit.
           5 credits at  8960 gold per credit.
          20 credits at  8990 gold per credit.
         350 credits at  9000 gold per credit.
         100 credits at  9300 gold per credit.
         120 credits at  9500 gold per credit.
         243 credits at  9552 gold per credit.
    Total credits for sale: 938 shown (938 total)  (Average sale price: 8959)


    Credits for sale ~100 gold more expensive than they were before the change. There's also been days in the past week they hit over 9k. Seems like it's not something you can assess in a single day (GASP).
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Jarrod: no god damn it! I won't wait until there is a large data set! I won't wait another day! I expect immediate results!! IMMEDIATE I SAY!!!!!!!

    rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Tahquil
      

    Want to find out more? Just 2178 payments of $84.86 made daily and you too can have immediate results!
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Averi
  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,957 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Makarios said:
    For instance, making all purchases on the market bound is something we're also ok with doing
    Last time that was tried, it obviously reduced speculation by a lot, but didn't have much of an impact on credit prices (after being in place for a little over two months).
    YenAereidhna
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    Someone like me wants to push the market up because it makes what i already down more valuable...



  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jarrod said:
    @Tahquil
      

    Want to find out more? Just 2178 payments of $84.86 made daily and you too can have immediate results!
    According to that picture it seems the secret is to light the sky on fire, watch it burn and upload it to your Twitter/snapchat/whateversocialmediayouuoadpointlessfuckingvideosto.
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I basically consider it stealing that you figured that out yourself.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,619 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Time for the lawyer-off.

    I have no idea what this is but it came up when I googled weird lawyers.


  • AesgarAesgar Member Posts: 450 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Seragorn said:

    I understand the reasons behind this system, but I'm not convinced its going to help or be very practical. 

    Firstly, for the first time in ages I actually wanted to sell credits today for quick cash, but I couldn't.. This system takes the ability to go and throw 1k credits up well under market price to sell quick.  You're forced to do that via market channel thus your credit sales have no impact on the market average. 

    Secondly, its still far to easy to manipulate, if two people wanted to they could simply buy credits 10 from one another slowly dropping the price down to a point where they're happy to buy credits at, then wait for people to sell at the price bracket they've determined.

    Even if it wasn't able to be manipulated, the underlying problem isn't so much that there's to much gold in the game, its that there is no reasonable use for that gold with the exception of commodities (which only effects the select few idiots like me who decide they want to be a legendary blacksmith, or decide they want to build a fortress to sit in).  Even with diminishing returns on gold, there will always be some people who can collect gold more efficiently and so long as all financial transactions are forced thru credits there will be a divide between the average price people think is fair and the price those with disposable gold are prepared to pay.

    I've floated this idea before and been shot down but I still think the solution is not to try and control the credit market, its to create a better sink for the gold so that it has a more practical use, and the obvious use is for lessons.  I know IRE doesn't want to fix the price of credits, but in a way its already been done, you can see that in the current auctions with the prices being based on a 7k per credit price.  So lets work off 7k as an example, lets say you sold lessons from a denizen at 1.2k gold per lesson.  There's a significant group of people like myself who will not need to push credit prices up in order to learn more, that's where I believe the majority of the upward pressure is coming from.  Those people who want quick lessons will not be demotivated from purchasing from the web site because the quickest way to get those lessons is still going to be via credits.  What they do get is an option, they either convert the credits direct to lessons (if CFS happens to drop below 7k), or they put the lessons on the market when CFS is above 7k and they make a little extra for their trouble.  This stabilizes the market on a price that can be controlled via the price of lessons.

    While we're on it, I want to give my 2c on the gold diminishing returns, which I think is set to low (if required at all).  Personally I think DR on gold isn't required, I believe IRE needs those people who are grinding away working towards the more advanced end game (more skills, more artifacts).  I'll openly admit that I'm not a big spender of rl cash on the web site, but I pay my Iron Elite when I can afford it to support the game and I'm finding myself questioning the value in it.  Historically I didn't do iron elite for the credits, I did it for the xp bonus because hell, if I'm hunting for 4-6 hours a day I might as well maximise what I get for my time.  Having more people going on past the dragon, got X arties point and losing interest is only good for the game, those people bring knowledge, some of us help lead houses and train young, its not like we're simply a drain on the game past this point.  I'm one of those who does have other things besides hunting that I can focus on, but I can see where many people would drop out at this point.

    Second thing about diminishing returns that concerns me is that it completely devalues a significant number of artefacts, I'm lucky because I've paid most of those purchases off long ago with the hunting I've done.  But if I was entering the game now, or starting out, I can see no value at all in so many of those once prized artefacts because they simply allow you to hit diminishing returns in 2 hours instead of 3 hours.  Most people would look at them as an investment that will pay themselves off over time with enough hunting.

    There was a point where the gold into the game was way over the top, when you combined rageblade and ahmetite (+40%) and golden braid (+200%) together, the majority of that problem was resolved in the braid and ahmetite nerf, now if your able to maintain all the buffs (despite the attention your getting) you're still not working at an unreasonable level.  If diminishing returns is required, I suggest its scaled back significantly, I think someone who wants to spend 6 hours hunting up 500k should absolutely be allowed to, and I think its healthy for the game to have those people doing it.  Just take the pressure off CFS my moderating it with lessons and giving them an avenue to burn that gold.

    Sorry for the wall of text, this is why I don't forum often..


    Love you so much right now. All of this is so accurate imo. Thanks Seragorn
  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    DR has killed my enjoyment of the game to a significant degree. I've some weird addiction to seeing numbers go up - be it my xp, gold balance, other peoples xp when I bring them hunting or let them leech.

    At this level though the xp gain is so fucking slow that I get by by seeing the gold increase, and now that I can't even really do that after 3 hours I just get stupidly frustrated.

    It makes hunting with other people a right pain as well, because you'll generally want to split the gold with them. Except most of that gold has come out of MY 160k because being arte'd and a dragon inevitably means most of the damage and kills are from me. So the willingness to help people level with hunting disappears then too.

    Sob story aside : My biggest gripe with DR is that it went from being in place and me never noticing it (was bashing 300 to 500k per rl day - because I was logged in 10 to 12 hours) and then Boom, 160k with no testing. It looks like it went from 600k+ to a quarter of that with no warning and no trialling of midpoints.

    As an aside : From when I can't back to play in october up until DR160 became a thing, I was averaging 200euro a month into the game. Which I can't -really- afford, but I was kinda ok with it because I was supplementing it with hunting and actually felt like I was getting value, now I really don't feel like spending at all.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    Aegoth
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,973 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    gold DR for hunting at the level its at is bad for the game. period. Seragorn and Xaden summed it up nicely i think.
  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The hilarious thing about this whole thing was : The month before the bashing cap got lowered they introduced the death cape and horn. People spending close to 1000 credits on the former and quite a bit on the latter. Only for it to become nearly completely pointless weeks later.

    Did I say hilarious? I meant sickening.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 5,040 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I kind of like it. It's a lot easier to find places to hunt since there's less competition for them (because other people have capped already), and while I could bash for considerably longer than the two hours it takes me to start seeing diminishing returns, that's probably not good for me. Death cape, two death's calls and a level three crit pendant are the only things I can say in good conscience I own only to help me bash gold faster, and - apparently unlike Seragorn - I still consider them worth the cost since they allow me to obtain my daily gold quota in two hours rather than three or four. Interested to know what the "so many things" everybody else has bought purely for bashing are.

    Agreed that it really hasn't helped credit prices at all, though that's not surprising. I don't believe there's anything the administration can do to control credit prices other than setting them at a static value. If players want credit prices to fall then they - and that means literally all of them - need to decide collectively to never buy above a certain value. Want credits to sell for 6k? Don't buy for anything above that, even if it's "just" 6001.
  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I have a level 2 crit pendant. That's the only thing I bought specifically for bashing.
    Admittedly the extra str & con also help.

    As well as the odd sips of lucky / rareminerals.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,973 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2016
    It's all well and good to say "just don't buy at that price", but you rich, privileged, white, cis-gendered males seem to forget that not everyone has the limitless options you do, and therefore"just don't buy" isn't an option, because they HAVE to buy at that price, or foreve remain skilless, artiless plebians who cannot compete or bash or even mudsex effectively (str arties are needed for good mudsex). So I say to you: think of the noobs.. the people we try really hard to pretend to care about..  and think of novice retention. Will we have a better game if you fulfill your greedy quota of selling credits at 10k per just because some stupid asshole decides "fuck it", or will he harbour a more harmonious community by going "this is fucked up. Let's freeze credit prices at a low cost so our poor, underprivileged, low socio-economic status players may also partake in the game with us". The choice, my greedy, obtrusive and blindly arrogant friends, is up to you. 

    TLDR: Capitalism is an engine of the upper class to oppress the proletariate. fuck capitalism. VIVA REVOLUTION!
    BlujixapugSkarashHosko
  • DeladanDeladan Member Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I'll say it. I gives no fux about the cap and will bash after I've hit it just for talisman pieces. 

    Hyperlith
  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Deladan said:
    I'll say it. I gives no fux about the cap and will bash after I've hit it just for talisman pieces. 
    I capped at 7am this morning. It's now 3pm. I've still been bashing on and off most of the day because I have xp goals to reach. But I'm not enjoying it.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    Prythe
  • SarathaiSarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Xaden said:
    The hilarious thing about this whole thing was : The month before the bashing cap got lowered they introduced the death cape and horn. People spending close to 1000 credits on the former and quite a bit on the latter. Only for it to become nearly completely pointless weeks later.
    A fully-charged death cape is functionally equivalent to multiple L3 arties as long as you can keep the charge going. Where before you might have needed, say, a L3 bracelet and L3 belt to bash some areas just because of sheer damage output (looking at you, werewolves), as long as you can kill fast enough to keep the cape charged you get the same benefit or better. A ~7k health dragon becomes a ~10.5k health dragon, basically taking that person from entry-level all the way to where myself, Seragorn, Jhui, and Proficy are sitting.

    Spending a thousand credits on a death cape is far better, financially, than spending four thousand credits on two L3s. By the numbers you could probably charge twice as much for a death cape and it'd still be worth it, if bashing is your only goal.
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarathai said:
    Xaden said:
    The hilarious thing about this whole thing was : The month before the bashing cap got lowered they introduced the death cape and horn. People spending close to 1000 credits on the former and quite a bit on the latter. Only for it to become nearly completely pointless weeks later.
    A fully-charged death cape is functionally equivalent to multiple L3 arties as long as you can keep the charge going. Where before you might have needed, say, a L3 bracelet and L3 belt to bash some areas just because of sheer damage output (looking at you, werewolves), as long as you can kill fast enough to keep the cape charged you get the same benefit or better. A ~7k health dragon becomes a ~10.5k health dragon, basically taking that person from entry-level all the way to where myself, Seragorn, Jhui, and Proficy are sitting.

    Spending a thousand credits on a death cape is far better, financially, than spending four thousand credits on two L3s. By the numbers you could probably charge twice as much for a death cape and it'd still be worth it, if bashing is your only goal.
    Oh, I know this, Sarathai. And I'm not doubting it's efficacy. BUT. What's the point when you get 2 hours per day out of it?

         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • CooperCooper Member Posts: 5,841 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Antonius said:
    I kind of like it. It's a lot easier to find places to hunt since there's less competition for them (because other people have capped already), and while I could bash for considerably longer than the two hours it takes me to start seeing diminishing returns, that's probably not good for me. Death cape, two death's calls and a level three crit pendant are the only things I can say in good conscience I own only to help me bash gold faster, and - apparently unlike Seragorn - I still consider them worth the cost since they allow me to obtain my daily gold quota in two hours rather than three or four. Interested to know what the "so many things" everybody else has bought purely for bashing are. 
    The things I have STRICTLY for bashing are pretty limited - death cape, level 2 pendant. 

    The list of things I've bought with bashing in mind or as a second thought but benefit me in other areas too is quite large. The good thing is that most of those are still useful in other areas. 

  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 3,308 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I bought a lvl 3 lash for serpent bashing.. and I don't even use it. :(
    image
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason, Secret Squirrel Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited August 2016
    Based on the number of people who actually dislike the gold DR it seems to affect such a small percentage of the population that it's doing exactly what it was intended to do.

    Also:

    Seragorn said:
    Secondly, its still far to easy to manipulate, if two people wanted to they could simply buy credits 10 from one another slowly dropping the price down to a point where they're happy to buy credits at, then wait for people to sell at the price bracket they've determined.

    At least for this point, this would result in two shrubs.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Exelethril
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,409 Achaean staff
    edited August 2016
    Seragorn said:


    , I think someone who wants to spend 6 hours hunting up 500k should absolutely be allowed to, and I think its healthy for the game to have those people doing it.  =

    Healthy how? How is someone running a script for 6 hours to generate gold while they do something else healthy for the game? I can certainly tell you how it's unhealthy: It devalues the effort of everyone who is not just running a script to generate gold, and virtually everybody who was generating that kind of gold was just running a script to do it. 
    BleakTyamatIllarionPrythe
  • AegothAegoth Member Posts: 2,973 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    Seragorn said:


    , I think someone who wants to spend 6 hours hunting up 500k should absolutely be allowed to, and I think its healthy for the game to have those people doing it.  =

    Healthy how? How is someone running a script for 6 hours to generate gold while they do something else healthy for the game? I can certainly tell you how it's unhealthy: It devalues the effort of everyone who is not just running a script to generate gold, and virtually everybody who was generating that kind of gold was just running a script to do it. 
    It's healthier than the people who run script to PK! Should focus on them instead. #shrubautoPKers2016
  • TolanTolan Member Posts: 181 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I think non-auto bashers should get prizes >.>
  • AralayaAralaya Member Posts: 1,224 @ - Epic Achaean
    wait auto bashing is a thing?


    Tecton-Today at 6:17 PM

    teehee b.u.t.t. pirates
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,409 Achaean staff
    Tolan said:
    I think non-auto bashers should get prizes >.>
    I would happily give you all cookies for that, but the problem with scripting is that it's very difficult to auto-detect without a LOT of work that's well beyond the scope of what we have the resources to do, and even then it'd still be a neverending arms race between people working to disguise their scripting and our working to detect it.
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