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Classlead Discussion Q2 2016

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  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,330 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Agreed!
  • AylekAylek Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Farrah said:
    Agreed!
    Any suggestions?
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's 3 truenames per cleanseaura.

  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,330 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aylek said:
    Farrah said:
    Agreed!
    Any suggestions?
    I already made one in my post. Fewer TNs per cleanseaura (if there's even a problem at all). It'd slow the prep a little more. Otherwise, seems fine to me.
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,350 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Does shielding actually help against truename or can they just gremlin with ent balance and blast you again?

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  • AylekAylek Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Shielding lets you not take one directly after the first, allows potential for more curing as far as I am aware.
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,350 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Why? They can't truename while off ent balance?

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  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,918 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Can't truename off ent balance pretty sure.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • AylekAylek Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Gremlin takes EQ (2.75s without nimble/QW) and scales with affs, so truename can't be used till recovering EQ off of gremlin.
    Dunn
  • ArchaonArchaon Member Posts: 99 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Aylek said:
    Gremlin takes EQ (2.75s without nimble/QW) and scales with affs, so truename can't be used till recovering EQ off of gremlin.
    also, even with hierophant forced smoke, 99.9% (repeating, of course) people cure out of the first name before I do my second truename.  Furthermore, they stay in the room and most people then continue to attack me before I do my second one.  It's not an issue with truenames, it's an issue with people either:

    A - not knowing what to do

    B - wondering why their F-key bound auto-function isn't killing people before they get killed


    Farrah
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,918 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2016
    --Aeon smoke line--

    If classTimerExists ("occultist") then
         If sys.bals.b and sys.bals.e and not sys.bals.smoke then --illusion catch
              Send ("touch shield")
         End
    End

    Has been a solid change for me vs TN strat.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • ArchaonArchaon Member Posts: 99 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    nah bruh nerf it
  • MakariosMakarios Administrator Posts: 1,820 Achaean staff

    Quick interjection here:

    Enervate is base 2.9 seconds of equilibrium. It is 15% of max mana, but has a flat component much like sap/leech/etc. It has a higher base percentage due to (1) requiring the target be a lesser percentage than standard mana instakills, and (2) because there's no secondary mana pressure.

    It is likely that people with low intelligence stats are struggling far more than people without. I'm ok with that, for the most part. It creates some interesting parity between classes that must spec high int and result in low con, or dex in the case of serpent, etc. Whether that difference is currently too significant is possible, though I'm not convinced as of the moment: I'll make a note to watch more occultist matchups.

    Devran
  • JinsunJinsun TN, USAMember Posts: 2,908 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    All these people saying Enervate can't be hindered are flat wrong lol. Impale/webbed/prone, etc.
    image
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,350 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    It's not too bad but once svof stopped treating it as an illusion : https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/f654046e

    Damage is probs modified by INT though.

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  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,918 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aren't you max everything defensively?

    Aylek not artied. Bad comparison.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Anedhel
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,350 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2016
    Nope, mostly level 2's. I'm poor :/

    Max INT : 53% vs unartied : 42.3%  (with Algiz) - https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/750d68b1  


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  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,918 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Yeah if there is an issue at all, it's the interaction with Heiro, imo.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • ArmaliArmali Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    The hiero thing isn't a problem, though. At best they can delay your aeon by 0.5s.
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jinsun said:
    All these people saying Enervate can't be hindered are flat wrong lol. Impale/webbed/prone, etc.
    Those are highly situational hinders, compared to clumsiness, paralysis, etc, that are normal hinders. Webbed is countered by Buckawns. To keep you prone long enough sip mana once, most classes would have to break a leg, which means they're sacrificing 6-12s of prepwork for a 4-second breather. That's unsustainable, they'd never get a chance to kill you if they did that consistently. Impale is an option for BM/S&B who can manage it without breaking a leg, but is only 2.5s of hindrance compared to 4.5s mana sip, which means you're still winning that fight, and we're sacrificing all our offense just to delay the inevitable.

    I don't find the damage or Aeon of Truename to be particularly unreasonable; it's strong, but it needs to be. If it wasn't, then it wouldn't be a viable alternate kill method. Dodging Truename setups once they -have- the Truenames takes a bit of awareness and proactive action, which is completely fine and normal for a prep-based finisher. However, I didn't realize that Cleansaura gave 3 Truenames. That makes it the fastest prep setup in existence. I'm cool with Occultists having a prep option, but prep options generally take longer than other paths, so I don't see why Occultists should get 3 TNs for 6-12s of spamming Enervate/Hound. At that speed, they get their Truename setup 3-4 times before even fast-prepping classes like DWB and BM get to try their kills once, which doesn't seem equitable if we're both using prep-based finishers.

    If Cleanseaura only gave 1 Truename, that would extend that prep sequence out to match the time of most other prep classes, and at least partially justify why Enervate isn't stopped by paralysis. (Though I still don't see a good argument for why it isn't.) Keep the damage, keep the aeon, that change alone would probably go a long way to rectify any complaints about it, by letting classes actually fight it for longer than 10s before they start getting Star/Hound/Truename'd.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    Anedhel
  • ArmaliArmali Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    It doesn't quite work like that.

    Cleanseaura opens up their aura for a short period (like, 8s or something?).

    At that point, you can use abomination (Domination, ent balance), to strip one truename at a time, so there's another bit of non-zero time that it takes.
    Aerek
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I'm glad to hear that.

    Still, fighting Gilt, Jinsun, and I'm sure soon to be Archaon, the prep time on TN setups is much faster than anything dedicated prep-based classes manage. Sylvans are also annoying to fight because they build to 40 Arcane power in about 10s. That kind of prep time is absurd any way you cut it, and TN is stronger because they keep the TNs they do manage to harvest. Slowing it down would likely solve some of the gripes about TN setups without affecting TN's intrinsic power. (At least in 1v1. I have empathy with folks' gripes about groups, though I've not experienced that myself)
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • CaliraCalira Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 540 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I find that I sometimes get 3 and sometimes get 2 out of a single cleanseaura, so it's a bit inconsistant.
    Aerek said:
    That makes it the fastest prep setup in existence.
    This would be true if it were actually a prep setup, but it's not. If you exit room to heal up before they get cleanseaura then they retain 0 progress, which is very different to actual prep like limb damage or fashioning.

    Enervate is absolutely a momentum path, which is why it reaches its conclusion faster than prep classes do. The advantages of Enervate are simply that it's nigh unhinderable, and the downsides are that it in turn offers zero hindering, and that it leads to truename collection instead of an outright kill.
    DevranFarrah
  • DevranDevran Member Posts: 619 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Lead coder doesn't seem to think it's absurd, Aerek.

    I think you're dipping into hyperbole a bit much. And I want to make it clear that I'm not saying that in a snarky manner. We're all guilty of being passionate about something and coming across strongly.

    However, I don't think reducing the number of Truenames you can harvest at once (still able to have three, just take longer) would be too bad of a change if it was deemed necessary. Markarios said he was going to watch more Occultist matchups. Will have to wait and see.
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Once you have the TNs, you initiate the kill setup at a time and place of your choosing. That's the hallmark of a prep-based setup. Once you get me low, Cleanseaura/Abomination harvests a truename that you keep even if I run. When I return, you still have that, and just need 2 more. That's prep, no different from me setting legs.

    Yes, gathering the TNs is momentum-based, but the speed of that momentum (especially if you catch me sipping health) is beyond quick, it's not really a question of "if" you get Truenames, you *will* if I stay in the room for any length of time. That's why I referenced Sylvan. Electrify is a momentum strat, but the fact they can reach it in 10s means you can't really run to avoid it; you'd spend all your time running and never hitting back. To actually fight the Sylvan, you just have to resign yourself to the fact that you're going to get Electrified, and you're probably going to have to dodge it 2-3 times before you get to try and kill them.

    That reality is just pretty annoying to go up against.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • ArmaliArmali Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I don't know, a DWC can get 5 combos off in the time it takes for a Sylvan or an Occie to prep their routes. You could use 3 to prep, and then tumble up on combo 4 (for Sylvan), or maybe come up with something else for Occie. Loop RoF. Time a prone-impale. Enervate is 2.5s (apparently), so that's a pretty luxurious window to work off of.
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I like your hard-on for DWC, but I think you're missing the forest because of all the trees in the way.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
  • IsrayhlIsrayhl Member Posts: 181 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Armali said:
    I don't know, a DWC can get 5 combos off in the time it takes for a Sylvan or an Occie to prep their routes. You could use 3 to prep, and then tumble up on combo 4 (for Sylvan), or maybe come up with something else for Occie. Loop RoF. Time a prone-impale. Enervate is 2.5s (apparently), so that's a pretty luxurious window to work off of.
    If you have to state "Use an artefact not everyone has" as part of a prep strategy or to avoid death, then the strategy/survival strategy needs a look. Defensive artefacts that are not part of a class' skills should not be taken into account as an essential part of defense. 
    Anedhel
  • ArmaliArmali Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Then use a flying mount. SnB and 2h can both prone impale relatively on demand, one via Ferocity and the other via hammer prep. Bard can break legs almost on demand because of their prep speed. BM can knees impale. Jester can hangedman/bombs/somersault. Mages can aerial. Sentinels could probably just petrify you in the time it takes for you to enervate if you don't hinder. Apostates and monks can pretty much just face tank the truenames. Shamans can slow prep right back with vodun. Serpent could lock you back, or just evade out.

    I just don't really understand where this business about being unable to hinder comes from when there plainly seems to be plenty of options that people just rarely use.

    For example, @Kenway is the only 2h I fight regularly that uses targeted leg break/upsets to break momentum. If I don't preapply against him, I'll die because I simply won't be able to make any progress. @Farrah is the only SnB I've fought that uses ferocity to get a quick impale that also forces a momentum break. I've never seen anyone but @Seragorn uses concussion bombs to delay post lock finishing. @Bors is the only Sylvan who uses aerial mixed with illusions/shield to stall. All of these tactics work, and almost every class has something akin to it, but it just seems like they're not being explored in lieu of crying for nerfs.
    FinkleFarrahCalira
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