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Classlead Discussion Q2 2016

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  • AylekAylek Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Alrena said:
    Seragorn whispers something to a soulmaster.
    A soulmaster seems to settle down.
    You take a long drag of cinnabar off your pipe.
    [AFF] AEON | Seragorn draws back with a knowing smirk and utters some alien word that vibrates deep within your bones. Your mind swirls and body convulses in excruciating pain as your very spirit cries out in agony.
    1687h 3571m 23620e 25167wXX EE B D M [ae] (-3336h, 66.4%)

    Welp, curing it is a bit hard there.  Not to mention enervate and some occie ent were draining my mana faster than I could sip, dervish knocking me down fast... not really sure how to counter that.
    There's not really a counter to that from what I know. I think most Occies have responded with "Touch shield after" to avoid dying to follow up damage.

    Testing enervate it seems to drain 30% (according to my target) mana a pop, at 2s balance which is crazy, need them below 40% mana to get the truename, so really 2-3 enervates depending on targets gives you a truename which is pretty crazy - 6s into cleanseaura/glaaki can give you a truename, if you spam enervate into cleanseaura/glaaki you can get 3 truenames pretty damn quick, then you could just throw some stars/warp+hound/truename most people.

    Above may not be too accurate as I haven't had a chance to play around with it against variations of people but still.. seems a bit ridiculous. Add in hierophant/soulmaster you could probably do some nasty things with it.
  • AlrenaAlrena Member Posts: 647 @ - Epic Achaean
    I don't know how much it was, but I dropped mana very fast. As a momentum class, it means I need to accept he gets truenames, or never gain any momentum at all (which is then nullified by RoF, it's own problem, and fool tarot/hangedman). It's far, far, FAR too easy to get for how strong it is. I know it's been classleaded, so I sincerely hope it's either a bit harder to get, or made to be less potent. With how strong Occie is defensively, this just seems over the top with how little pre-damage they need. You can't expect anyone to fight on mana prio against an (artied) occie who can warp and hound for 40% health (or something, idk but it's a lot) either.

    I do see curing bugged out a bit, trying to sip speed and interrupting my commands because smoke balance was down, that sure didn't help. But I also don't think flying or shielding would have saved me. That said, Seragorn's not your average occie, and I made some mistakes, but it still seems far too strong for the effort required, considering how incredibly small the window of time to react is. Idk, maybe I need to fight occies more, but it just seems a bit too good.
    image
  • SeragornSeragorn Member Posts: 32 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Aylek said:
    Alrena said:
    Seragorn whispers something to a soulmaster.
    A soulmaster seems to settle down.
    You take a long drag of cinnabar off your pipe.
    [AFF] AEON | Seragorn draws back with a knowing smirk and utters some alien word that vibrates deep within your bones. Your mind swirls and body convulses in excruciating pain as your very spirit cries out in agony.
    1687h 3571m 23620e 25167wXX EE B D M [ae] (-3336h, 66.4%)

    Welp, curing it is a bit hard there.  Not to mention enervate and some occie ent were draining my mana faster than I could sip, dervish knocking me down fast... not really sure how to counter that.
    There's not really a counter to that from what I know. I think most Occies have responded with "Touch shield after" to avoid dying to follow up damage.

    Testing enervate it seems to drain 30% (according to my target) mana a pop, at 2s balance which is crazy, need them below 40% mana to get the truename, so really 2-3 enervates depending on targets gives you a truename which is pretty crazy - 6s into cleanseaura/glaaki can give you a truename, if you spam enervate into cleanseaura/glaaki you can get 3 truenames pretty damn quick, then you could just throw some stars/warp+hound/truename most people.

    Above may not be too accurate as I haven't had a chance to play around with it against variations of people but still.. seems a bit ridiculous. Add in hierophant/soulmaster you could probably do some nasty things with it.


    No entity drains mana, we can try and force you to sip health by using hound though, so you want to consider mana prio (not like that strat isn't blatantly obvious, and leads to nothing else).. Also enervate is not doing 30%, does about 21% as standard from my testing.. that fight with Alrena went for approximately 2 minutes I think, in which time I had to dodge locks multiple times, used fools, concussions and flying just to survive..  Soulmaster cant be used in this context because it consumes balance, so you regain smoke balance before the delivery.  Hierophant has defences that can block it, and it requires us to sync up our entity balance with eq to deliver that finisher, so its not the most simple thing in the world to complete (to date I haven't seen any other occultist successfully deliver this finisher, and I often bork it as well)..

    Enlightening is much more potent, but this strategy works better against classes that can out momentum you, its comparable to a knight who dsb's you after prepping for 2 minutes.

    Armali is correct, you can defeat it, but it requires you to stray from the standard 'server curing will make me immortal' attitude and do something yourself, at which point most people opt out.  I'll also add that you WOULD have still cured that aeon (and possibly got a sip in, its a race there) if it wasn't for the fact my amnesia pet also hit you at just the worst time and did consume your delayed smoke, but that was just Achaea rng deciding you definitely weren't going to survive, no planning on my behalf.

  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,163 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Enervate mana drain should probably scale with afflictions or at least have some kind of condition in order to use it. Being able to spam it for 1000/30% mana drain every 2 seconds is insane. It also has no counterplay if you're a mana hungry class like Priest, Alchemist, Apostate etc.
    AerekAlrenaExelethril
  • ArmaliArmali Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    edited July 2016
    It's not 2s. It's 4s base, so modified down to 3s.

    I don't know how fast you can lock against someone that's not hindering you at all, but I did it fine to @Archaon before he could grab truenames and I burn like 200 mana a combo and he's artied up the gills. @Seragorn would be no different, and judging by his remarks, it wasn't -- you had plenty of opportunities to break him down, and then when he broke out, reset to recover your mana.

    As an Apostate, you have very very powerful tools to deal with this. You have vigor and you have apathy, and unless stars were running (in which case you really shouldn't have been standing there in the first place) I'm pretty confident with good curing and average luck (if his pet doesn't screw you over), you could've survived.
  • AylekAylek Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I think @seragorn you meant to point your fight comments to @alrena.
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,163 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Well Aylek was hitting me closer to 2.5 seconds for 957 mana (or 29% exactly of my max mana pool). Definitely wasn't as slow as 3 seconds. That's with QW and Diadem.
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2016
    It definitely does closer to 30% than 20% from what I remember, I'll grab a log next time I fight an occie!

    https://ada-young.appspot.com/pastebin/1a5e48c5
  • AylekAylek Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    2.5s with QW/Diadem and 25.4% of @Anedhel 's mana.
    Anedhel
  • AlrenaAlrena Member Posts: 647 @ - Epic Achaean
    Armali said:
    It's not 2s. It's 4s base, so modified down to 3s.

    I don't know how fast you can lock against someone that's not hindering you at all, but I did it fine to @Archaon before he could grab truenames and I burn like 200 mana a combo and he's artied up the gills. @Seragorn would be no different, and judging by his remarks, it wasn't -- you had plenty of opportunities to break him down, and then when he broke out, reset to recover your mana.

    As an Apostate, you have very very powerful tools to deal with this. You have vigor and you have apathy, and unless stars were running (in which case you really shouldn't have been standing there in the first place) I'm pretty confident with good curing and average luck (if his pet doesn't screw you over), you could've survived.
    I'm not sure what Archaon did then, but Seragorn was dropping my mana faster than I could get a stack on, especially cause a fool tarot effectively reset his affs. I get that I have to change up how I cure to handle it, in which case RNG can still get me, but that's true in most cases. But you don't seem to get that if I dont want an occie to get TN as a momentum class, it means I have to not fight him, and just run away. There is no way for me to stop that with the tools an occie has. It also does not take 2 full minutes to get three true names, let's be fair, it only took that long cause your things were breaking left and right, @Seragorn

    All I'm saying is that it's way too easy to get TN's for how potent it is. Just because most occies don't combine it with other things to make it more effective doesn't mean it's fine as is!
    image
    Anedhel
  • ArmaliArmali Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 1,179 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I play a momentum class too, and I don't seem to have the same issues you do against Occultists, @Seragorn included.

    Maybe it would be good to post a log, so we can see what's up? 
  • AlrenaAlrena Member Posts: 647 @ - Epic Achaean
    Armali said:
    I play a momentum class too, and I don't seem to have the same issues you do against Occultists, @Seragorn included.

    Maybe it would be good to post a log, so we can see what's up? 
    Don't have the log, will post one later I guess. But are you sure that's not just because you're alchemist and humours aren't quite as quick/easy to get rid of?
    image
  • JovoloJovolo EnglandMember Posts: 3,163 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    I think it'd be good to see a log of Armali vs Seragorn from Armali's point of view where Seragorn is spamming Enervate strategy and typical Enlighten strategy. 
    AlrenaAnedhel
  • DevranDevran Member Posts: 619 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Isn't Seragorn considered one of the premiere Occultist fighters? It would seem labeling something as overpowered because one of the best at the game at the class, who undoubtedly has artifacts, manages to be effective at it, especially when other people aren't having the same issues versus the class.

    Everyone complains about Truename. It's happened since the first person got hit with it. 
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dun really matter, that's the point. The basic features- that enervate can't be slowed down by anything except leaving the room, that Truenames do unblockable damage at a super high base (over 50%, Calira said, right?), that tentacles and dervish are a pain in the ass to run away from, etc. etc. have nothing to do with artefacts, they're class features.

    This isn't an artefact-vs-no-artefacts thing. This is a some-people-don't-feel-the-effort-is-proportional-to-the-damage thing.
  • DevranDevran Member Posts: 619 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Occultist isn't the only class that you have to run away from, so not sure why that's an issue. Isn't TN modified damage with a base of 40? Piety, engage are a pain to run from, etc etc.

    Why is nobody talking about Sylvan damage? It's ridiculous. Or 2Hand Knight (of any kind) where if you sip or apply your'e still going to die. Or Monk?

    Truename has been complained about since the beginning of time, as I said. People don't like fighting occultists. 

    Seems to me people don't like fighting anyone that it's hard to fight against.
  • ExelethrilExelethril Member Posts: 3,350 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Cuz no one likes dealing with aeon. Ret is okay.

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  • DevranDevran Member Posts: 619 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Sounds like certain people need to get better at fighting Aeon.
  • SobriquetSobriquet Member Posts: 2,288 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sounds like someone is being over defensive
    image
    AerekCooperYsela
  • DevranDevran Member Posts: 619 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited July 2016
    Didn't know that disagreeing vocally made one defensive. Aren't forums for talking? I took the opposite standpoint in a discussion. That doesn't equate to being defensive Sobriquet.
  • DunnDunn Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 6,188 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The sky is blue, priests are OP... And occultists need nerfs. 

    The three universal truths of our Achaean life. 


    AnedhelMorthifMishgul
  • AylekAylek Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    What would be the ideal "fix" in other peoples minds, with regards to either enervate or truename?
  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 5,003 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You said Seragorn is the best Occie and that saying truename is op cause he used it isn't right,  compared truename to piety/engage, then tried to shift the discussion to sylvan and 2h, then said people have been complaining about truename forever because they don't like fighting Occultist. 

    Sounds pretty defensive to me. 

  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Devran said:
    Occultist isn't the only class that you have to run away from, so not sure why that's an issue. Isn't TN modified damage with a base of 40? Piety, engage are a pain to run from, etc etc.

    Why is nobody talking about Sylvan damage? It's ridiculous. Or 2Hand Knight (of any kind) where if you sip or apply your'e still going to die. Or Monk?

    Truename has been complained about since the beginning of time, as I said. People don't like fighting occultists. 

    Seems to me people don't like fighting anyone that it's hard to fight against.
    Sylvan damage fades when you move and wait a little while. A Truename doesn't. Sylvans don't have something faster than tentacles to get you out of flying. Sylvan damage is high base, but can be reduced by miniskill/resistance/chargeshield. With all that, Sylvan's still nuts.

    2h knight, there are a variety of things you can do. Clumsiness, weariness, lethargy, most classes have access to at least one of these, and they help a ton. Rebounding's less of an issue cuz of splinter/carve, so I won't really say that's an effective defence, but they also don't have faster-than-tentacle ways of pulling you out of flying, and they don't have room hinder that follows them around (piety/isaz/gravehands are a nuisance, but it's very very hard to keep piety/gravehands up in more than one room, because of the fast decay time.) wherever they go. 2h is still kinda nuts.

    Monk you can play defensively against but depending on who you're fighting, the window can be super duper narrow. I think Monk's kind of in a crazy place with the force-in-combos thing, but tumbling over a wall (preferably out of or into room hinder) at the right time can still save you (If you don't have a mono down in the room you're tumbling into, though, you're dead meat). Monk's pretty nuts.

    Enervate can't be hindered. Tentacles are obnoxious. Dervish or whatever it's called is harsh. Truenames have higher than 40% base damage, according to Calira, and I'm inclined to take her word for it. The damage type is confirmed to be unblockable. Is it unstoppable? No. Is it kinda crazy for 15 seconds of prep? I think so, yes. No one's saying Occultists are impossible to live against, or anything, just that, at the moment, the enervate-into-Truename thing is not a lot of fun to fight against, which I think is valid criticism!

    At the -very- least, I think Occultists are in the same realm as classes people don't like fighting much (Sylvan, 2h, Alchemist), generally speaking.
  • AnedhelAnedhel Member Posts: 2,367 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2016
    Aylek said:
    What would be the ideal "fix" in other peoples minds, with regards to either enervate or truename?
    I think enervate should be tied to affs in terms of its damage, or it should be hinderable by something other than paralysis which most classes have access to, so you can slow it down. It should be conditional in some respect, not just 'lol 1/4 your mana every 2.5s no matter what you do to me.'

    Truenames I don't -actually- have a problem with. They hurt like a bitch, which is fine, whatever, it's how easily you can get them that I think is silly.
    Aylek
  • AylekAylek Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Anedhel said:
    Aylek said:
    What would be the ideal "fix" in other peoples minds, with regards to either enervate or truename?
    I think enervate should be tied to affs in terms of its damage, or it should be hinderable by something other than paralysis which most classes have access to, so you can slow it down. It should be conditional in some respect, not just 'lol 1/4 your mana every 2.5s no matter what you do to me.'

    Truenames I don't -actually- have a problem with. They hurt like a bitch, which is fine, whatever, it's how easily you can get them that I think is silly.
    Hmm, pairing it with afflictions could make sense, could even make it so that enervate wouldn't work without them suffering from cadmus. Not sure if that would be wise though.
    Anedhel
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aylek said:
    What would be the ideal "fix" in other peoples minds, with regards to either enervate or truename?
    Jovolo has a pretty solid idea with Enervate scaling with affs or conditions, I think. Truename exists as the alternative for people who can consistently avoid Enlighten, and that's good, but I think it should take a touch more effort than just spamming Enervate.

    At the very least, make Enervate stopped by other common hindering conditions. For comparison, 2H is also a momentum class, (and a strong one) but it has to deal with paralysis, clumsiness, weariness, and avoidance/riding all making its forward progress miserable. Occultist is not so weak that Enervate being immune to most hinder is necessary, and the fact that it is seems pretty out of line, whether by oversight or by intentional "Let's make this strong at first, and scale it back as needed" design philosophy.

    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    AylekAnedhelShirszaeAlrena
  • ArchaonArchaon Member Posts: 99 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Rest in pepperoni glaaki 
  • FarrahFarrah Member, Secret Squirrel Posts: 2,331 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Aylek said:
    Anedhel said:
    Aylek said:
    What would be the ideal "fix" in other peoples minds, with regards to either enervate or truename?
    I think enervate should be tied to affs in terms of its damage, or it should be hinderable by something other than paralysis which most classes have access to, so you can slow it down. It should be conditional in some respect, not just 'lol 1/4 your mana every 2.5s no matter what you do to me.'

    Truenames I don't -actually- have a problem with. They hurt like a bitch, which is fine, whatever, it's how easily you can get them that I think is silly.
    Hmm, pairing it with afflictions could make sense, could even make it so that enervate wouldn't work without them suffering from cadmus. Not sure if that would be wise though.
    That would honestly completely eliminate the point of the kill path. You might as well just enlighten then.

    If the Truename path were needed to be slowed down, it'd make more sense to only allow one TN harvested at a time. I believe it's currently like get mana below 40% once, get two TNs. Not 100% sure.
  • AylekAylek Member Posts: 170 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Farrah said:
    Aylek said:
    Anedhel said:
    Aylek said:
    What would be the ideal "fix" in other peoples minds, with regards to either enervate or truename?
    I think enervate should be tied to affs in terms of its damage, or it should be hinderable by something other than paralysis which most classes have access to, so you can slow it down. It should be conditional in some respect, not just 'lol 1/4 your mana every 2.5s no matter what you do to me.'

    Truenames I don't -actually- have a problem with. They hurt like a bitch, which is fine, whatever, it's how easily you can get them that I think is silly.
    Hmm, pairing it with afflictions could make sense, could even make it so that enervate wouldn't work without them suffering from cadmus. Not sure if that would be wise though.
    That would honestly completely eliminate the point of the kill path. You might as well just enlighten then.

    If the Truename path were needed to be slowed down, it'd make more sense to only allow one TN harvested at a time. I believe it's currently like get mana below 40% once, get two TNs. Not 100% sure.
    Having it scale with affs in any way would essentially be the same, may as well go for enlighten over enervate if you need 3 affs to get any meaningful mana-drain for the truename gathering process.

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