Classlead Discussion Q2 2016

Omor

Just starting this now so the title is spelled correctly.

Jinsun

Bring back forceboard and Pit #MakeAchaeaGreatAgain

seriously, monk needs a balance increase on blackout.

Aesi

Isn't it Q3 now? Or Q2 as we're retroactively looking back?

Omor

Is it Q3? It can't already be Q3.

Ahmet

Aesi said:

Isn't it Q3 now? Or Q2 as we're retroactively looking back?

Q3. And can I submit a classlead about all those bloody rooms that need to be deleted? Or would I just get shot down for those too, Nicola?

Omor

Well fuck. At least it's spelled correctly, even if its the wrong Q.

Aesi

The irony of that after you pointed out the spelling mistake is making me laugh!

Omor

Yeah, not my proudest moment..

So these classleads, yeah!!!???!

Mizik

Omor said:

Just starting this now so the title is spelled correctly.

oh fk you dude

Amranu

Shaman lacks the ability to win every fight.

Give Shaman room hinder and reduce balance time on jinx and curse by 25%.

Exelethril

Délivrance shouldn't give a double or triple kill because of starbursts. Seems like a heavy way to punish when you can't ram the cancel queue button fast enough.

Iosefka

From my limited experience DWB Knights seem to have a hard time against classes that  have heavy hinder, mainly because we can't keep up momentum. I know that's kind of the point when you hinder someone but I couldn't seem to pull anything off once I set up someone for assault since I had no momentum at all. Maybe slow momentum decay a little or give us an ability we can use every so often to power through  clumsy/para  to maintain some momentum? Kind of like continuation but can't spam it.

Asmodron

Make limb preping more fluid, at least on BM side.

Or just remake BM, im okay with this too

Xaden

Reading some of the potential classleads that people have shared with me makes me realise how little I know about combat. My classleads would read : Occie OP, Nerf Plz

Keorin

I'm not at all confident enough in my knowledge of class balance to really suggest much, but a few things that have been on my mind:

Make impale prevent mind throw, or otherwise make mind throw easier to prevent/counter.

And I'm a little iffier about this, but maybe decrease the duration on surge, and also decrease it's eq time. Mounting is needed to slow monk prep and prevent the long prone times that they create with command, and a shorter duration would either make it much more costly to upkeep, or force the monk to think more strategically about its use. A shorter eq time, on the other hand, makes it harder for the target to just run on surge, which is a pretty boring strategy for everyone involved.

Antonius

Asmodron said:

Make limb preping more fluid, at least on BM side.

What does "more fluid" even mean?

Omor

Mizik said:

Omor said:

Just starting this now so the title is spelled correctly.

oh fk you dude

I was wondering when you'd realise.

Asmodron

Antonius said:

Asmodron said:

Make limb preping more fluid, at least on BM side.

What does "more fluid" even mean?

I feel this may be a bait but I'll go with it anyway. Limb damage is currently calculated based on target's max health which can make it unique from target to target. This is annoying and seems unneeded. Just make it a set amount of hits to break a limb and thus reducing the confusion.

In BM case, its even more annoying with their slashes. One limb is hit full and the other less so, meaning the BM has to try and calculate the amount of slashes to use alongside some compassslashes for the chance to get a double break. This will vary based on the target's health with how many slashes needed with compasses to get it right. Throw in parrying 1 of the limbs and get into a hell of confusion.

Antonius

It was a bait in the sense that it was a request to clarify what you meant, since "more fluid" is a generic nonsense term that could mean literally anything. I'm on board with making limb damage in general less of a hassle, but I'm also wary of just taking the "make everybody the same" approach since that makes it far, far easier to build a reliable self limb counter.

Antonius

Iosefka said:

From my limited experience DWB Knights seem to have a hard time against classes that  have heavy hinder, mainly because we can't keep up momentum. I know that's kind of the point when you hinder someone but I couldn't seem to pull anything off once I set up someone for assault since I had no momentum at all. Maybe slow momentum decay a little or give us an ability we can use every so often to power through  clumsy/para  to maintain some momentum? Kind of like continuation but can't spam it.

Dual blunt's biggest weakness is how susceptible it is to classes that can spam hindering afflictions (which is most affliction classes). It tends to do fine against classes with little or no hindering, though. I've been thinking it over and there are a couple of options, though I'm not sure I love any of them yet:

1. Have swings that fail due to clumsiness reset the momentum decay timer, but still not give any momentum, so that clumsiness is neutral rather than a net loss. The momentum mechanic is great for preventing against a pure slow prep approach, but there's no real need to punish attempts to attack that fail through no fault of your own. If possible, do the same thing on doublewhirls that fail due to being paralysed OR suspend momentum decay entirely while paralysed; there are few things more frustrating as dual blunt than having that 8th point of momentum decay between getting paralysed and curing paralysis/attacking, wasting an entire setup.

2. Change the way momentum decays entirely. Rather than gradually dropping off a point at a time, have it all decay at once but on a longer timer (though not necessarily as long as it currently takes to lose all 8 momentum). That would punish running more since you'd lose all of your momentum, rather than just some of it, while out of the room, but allow a bit more freedom in how you approach things while you are in the room (such as allowing you to pause attacking momentarily to wait for them to drop rebounding). Could possibly combine this with option 1 as well.

3. As you mentioned, some ability similar to Dedication or Continuation, but for clumsiness rather than paralysis. Not entirely sure how I feel about this one; it's difficult to balance availability to make it worth using without rendering clumsiness completely ineffective.

On a more general note, the majority of my classleads tend to be things that have pissed me off in the last three months. Not necessarily huge combat balance things, but general quality of life/usability issues. Here's a couple that I can currently remember, I have a list of something like 18 things I may classlead at home:

1. Falcon hunger is a garbage mechanic. Thematically it's kind of cool, but it just makes falcons so much worse than other entities (and they're not great as is). Get rid of hunt, keep the ability to feed your falcon rats (if you want). Alternatively, implement a similar mechanic for all other entities; sorry, Occultists, you can't fuck me up right now because your bloodleech needs a nap first.
2. Related to the above, being unable to summon falcon while indoors. Thematically it might make sense, but mechanically it's annoying as hell.
3. Smelting has a crazy long balance for no reason. You also (still) can't smelt while gripping, which never made sense and now really feels like a hold over from Forging being a Knight class skill.

Aerek

I'm actually pretty cautious about any DWB buffs. Yeah, they struggle with hindrance, but that's about their only issue. They prep like lightning, (I am actually not afraid of most Occultists as DWB, if that says anything) Pulp is pretty difficult to avoid, and we all know that an artefacted one can just explode anyone who doesn't have >5k health. You have to be able to slow us down, sometimes to a point where we lose momentum, or we could just steamroll most people. Clumsiness is rough, but only really hurts when you miss BOTH swings, which I feel is rare enough that it's not a big issue. (One hit resets your momentum timer)

I feel that last classlead round's change to Fracture so that it resets the timer if you successfully hit shield or rebound fixed most Momentum issues in that regard, and when you have Momentum, Fracture's balance is like .9 seconds. I don't mind it decaying one at a time instead of all at once, either. All-at-once decay would suck pretty hard if you hesitated just too long and lost everything by a split second or two. Right now, a single decay isn't a problem unless you're just about to attempt a setup.

I agree on falcons, though. Falcons could be nasty back in the day when they could take balance and mob people who weren't auto-sipping, but their relative power has dropped like a stone over the years; I barely bring mine out unless I'm playing 2H. Part of me can understand where they might need SOME gating mechanism just because they are truly passive, (As opposed to the Occultist entities, which are active abilites) and have a boatload of more utility than Serpent snakes or Groves bees (other passive critters), but at least make their hunger threshold much larger. They're only good for 1 fight or so before they have to go hunt, don't think they need to be gated THAT hard.

Borran

And then Knights got a 2nd balance for falcon and all its abilities became active.

Aerek

Shit. I'd take FALCON STRIP REBOUNDING on a tertiary class balance any day. Threaten me with a good time.

Morthif

Ugg why you want me to 4th class runewarden. I miss being a knight already. 

Omor

  Report #39
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Submitted by: Anonymous      Status      : Submitted
Skill       : Telepathy      Ability     : Mind throw
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Problem:
Currently, Mind Throw while paralysed and impaled presents an unreasonable
defensive option for monks both for Knights and Blademasters.
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Solution #1:
Make Mind Throw only work if your target is on-balance.

[...]

This is a terrible idea imo. If mind throw only works if your target is on-balance, it would turn into a practically useless skill since most people queue eqbal on their attacks, so they're rarely ever on-balance.
Solution #2 (make it unusable while impaled) is good, that's fine with me, but please please please don't make it only work if target is on-balance.

Atalkez

Why? That would operate like every other forced movement in the game.

Morthif

Atalkez said:

Why? That would operate like every other forced movement in the game.

This

Sobriquet

Morthif said:

Ugg why you want me to 4th class runewarden. I miss being a knight already. 

Because it's actually your 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th in one class slot (and one artie.)

Omor

Morthif said:

Atalkez said:

Why? That would operate like every other forced movement in the game.

This

IMO mind throw isn't a forced move, but an action against someone. Like, I'm grabbing your arm and literally throwing you into another room, don't need you to be on balance to throw you. But, y'know, mentally. If I wanted to force a move, I'd 'mind command east' or some such shit (dunno if that even works, but you get the point).

Kiet

If it's not stopped by mass and isn't the alchy thing/stormfist and therefore largely random, it's a forced move.

Shirszae

I honestly don't think it needs to be made to respect balance. Just make it so impaled people can't mind-throw