Classlead Discussion Q2 2016

Jovolo

Omor said:

Morthif said:

Atalkez said:

Why? That would operate like every other forced movement in the game.

This

IMO mind throw isn't a forced move, but an action against someone. Like, I'm grabbing your arm and literally throwing you into another room, don't need you to be on balance to throw you. But, y'know, mentally. If I wanted to force a move, I'd 'mind command east' or some such shit (dunno if that even works, but you get the point).

Flavour shouldn't come into a balance discussion. You can swing most skills in any subjective way you want, but that has no impact on how the ability should be balanced. You can restrict Mind Throw from the Monk's end (can't use it while paralysed/impaled/other restrictions) or provide preventative measures on the target's end (Mass, on-balance) but either way it needs limitations. 

Omor

Shirszae said:

I honestly don't think it needs to be made to respect balance. Just make it so impaled people can't mind-throw

Jovolo

yes    

Keorin

It also currently breaks the monk's mind lock, so it has some limitations for group combat already (not that I actually do group combat, so I can't speak to its current power there). 

Mind throw while impaled clearly needs to either be gone or have limitations that can be more easily added in during kill executions. Whether mass or being off balance should stop it is purely a question for group combat. 

Aerek

Walls do stop Mind Throw, so if you're not fighting somewhere like Clouds or NoT with a dozen exits, you can reasonably counter it as Knight/BM. As such, I've never had a particularly difficult time with Mind Throw, but it's also fair to say I can't think of any reason that Monks should have the ability to dodge Impale in that manner, either. So speaking as a Knight and Blademaster, I'm pretty indifferent on this one, but if it is deemed a problem, just making it not work while Impaled would be the easiest fix with the least collateral damage.

Mizik

My only problem with throw is in 1v1. Like when I chase douche bags to defendable and eat totems and guards. 

Should bring beck mind link and require it.

Kalithea

why not just make it also move the monk if they are impaled too?

Cynlael

Personally if I had a giant sword through my stomach, I don't think I'd be able to concentrate enough to be able to throw someone with my mind.

Kalithea

Cynlael said:

Personally if I had a giant sword through my stomach, I don't think I'd be able to concentrate enough to be able to throw someone with my mind.

True truth is true

Xaden

Cynlael said:

Personally if I had a giant sword through my stomach, I don't think I'd be able to concentrate enough to be able to throw someone with my mind.

That's cos you have yet to achieve complete mastery of mind, body and spirit. Bring back the Ashura.

Morthif

On second thought mind throw while impaled should act just like tumble off impale

Shirszae

Morthif said:

On second thought mind throw while impaled should act just like tumble off impale

I -think- it causes them damage, just like tumble. Not sure though, and not the same anyway.

Atalkez

Morthif said:

On second thought mind throw while impaled should act just like tumble off impale

It already does, it does damage to the person that throws.

The issue is, it's generally not enough damage to kill anyone and the person can't walk in, impale and still disembowel to seal. It's effective at a kill-stopper, with little recourse on the other persons end except having walls up.

Borran

 A fun change would be just have the damage dealt when you throw the person impaling you scale with torso damage. Then if you have their torso prepped and they throw you,  they dsb themselves,  but if you're just Impaling them with no torso prep, it will act as normal. 

Atalkez

It already does that too, generally it's still not enough vs a superior tanky monk. With as much prep (and defending of prep executions) as it takes for a knight to get to a torso dsb, asking them to also break an arm that they can't just apply way/touch tree for, or have a wall for every direction is a bit much.

Anedhel

For the record, the second suggestion in that classlead is for it not to work if the monk's impaled (I wrote that classlead). I also did write that it might present a group-combat repercussion the admins might not want to put in, for the sake of fairness. I still like giving options when I can, though.

Would it hurt monks? Yes. Would it make the skill unusable? No, I don't think so. Beckon/Devo Force/hypno suggested movement, etc. etc. all require the target to be on balance and people still use those more than enough, don't they? Monks are spoiled :P

Keorin

So what you're saying is that we should replace mind throw with beckon? Sign me up!

Ahmet

Anedhel said:

For the record, the second suggestion in that classlead is for it not to work if the monk's impaled (I wrote that classlead). I also did write that it might present a group-combat repercussion the admins might not want to put in, for the sake of fairness. I still like giving options when I can, though.

Would it hurt monks? Yes. Would it make the skill unusable? No, I don't think so. Beckon/Devo Force/hypno suggested movement, etc. etc. all require the target to be on balance and people still use those more than enough, don't they? Monks are spoiled :P

Except you're comparing beckon (which is multi-target), devo force (which can force any command, variety of uses both in/out of combat), and hypno suggestion (which is another command with a lot of utility and flexibility), to mind throw, which is literally -just- "Oh hey I mind locked this person I can throw them x direction with this telepathic ability and do nothing else with it".

I'm not saying that the complaint about impale isn't invalid, but you can't compare apples to oranges and expect that to be enough (not saying you specifically are doing that either, but a majority of the arguments seem to boil down to "it doesn't work like x/y/z so change it to work like x/y/z").

Ahmet

Keorin said:

So what you're saying is that we should replace mind throw with beckon? Sign me up!

MIND SUMMON. Lets do it.

Morthif

Umm they have mind command too. 

Ahmet

Morthif said:

Umm they have mind command too. 

Except mind throw is 30 lessons or so into telepathy. Mind command is not.

And mind command requires undeaf, no?

Idk. Simply pointing out that people are not making valid comparisons.

Xaden

Ahmet said:

Morthif said:

Umm they have mind command too. 

Except mind throw is 30 lessons or so into telepathy. Mind command is not.

And mind command requires undeaf, no?

Idk. Simply pointing out that people are not making valid comparisons.

I'd imagine that people who have the where-with-all and the timing/reaction speed to mind throw <dir> at the point of impale have likely spent more than 30 lessons in their third class skill. 

Asmodron

Introduce pyrokinesis to telepathy. Cos

Anedhel

Nvm, not worth it. Yes, you're right, different skills are different, and always difficult to compare.

Omor

Ahmet said:

Keorin said:

So what you're saying is that we should replace mind throw with beckon? Sign me up!

MIND SUMMON. Lets do it.

I swear I will completely give up kai cripple AND mind throw if we can get mind summon. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I'VE WANTED TO PULL SOMEONE OFF GUARD STACK!?
Sorry for shouting, but I've almost bought boomerang like four different times because of this, but it's rare enough not to warrant it's own artie (for me).

Omor

Also, @Anedhel I wasn't trying to call you out specifically, I had no clue who posted the classlead. Everyone is allowed their own opinion, I just felt stronger about that classlead than most of the others. We'll see how the admin feel about it soon enough.

Asmodron

I'd appreciate a radiance nerf...just because it is too laughably easy to get kills and cause disruptions with it. Either have a monk when raiding to counter radiance spam or pop out those creds for wings/earrings 

Cynlael

Omor said:

Ahmet said:

Keorin said:

So what you're saying is that we should replace mind throw with beckon? Sign me up!

MIND SUMMON. Lets do it.

I swear I will completely give up kai cripple AND mind throw if we can get mind summon. DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY TIMES I'VE WANTED TO PULL SOMEONE OFF GUARD STACK!?
Sorry for shouting, but I've almost bought boomerang like four different times because of this, but it's rare enough not to warrant it's own artie (for me).

If it's anything like Aetolia's mind summon, it wouldn't work while mass'd or on a mono.

Armali

It breaks lock, but doesn't work if there's a monolith on either end. It bypasses mass.

Borran

I'm kinda hoping the monk nerfs aren't strong enough.  That way I can switch to my 3rd class and run monk for this next qtr.