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Gold Generation

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  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    Xaden said:
     Or the 6 months of non-credit based promo's that have driven supply down and raised prices to 9000+ ?
    This is why it's really difficult to have an actual discussion here sometimes. You're getting worked up over something that is blatantly just nonsense.  In the past 6 months, 2 of the months have been credit promos. April and January. 

    April also had the wheel of fortune and January also had the artefact cart. I'm not faulting IRE or you in particular @Sarapis , gotta put food on several tables, but fingers are being pointed at people who put 10 hours a day into the game as the sole problem and that is definitely not the case.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    The people who wanted credits in a credit promo in April, for instance, bought them in April. You can't fault 'choice' as a reason people didn't buy credits during a credit promo, as whether there's no other promo, 1 other promo, or 10 other promos, there are still a bazillion other things they could spend their money on. 

    It's also worth pointing out that even with the credit promo AND the wheel of fortune, April was still the worst month of the year for us. The fact is, people preferred to spend their money on something else other than credits or the wheel of fortune that month, compared to other months. It's not like having the wheel there makes people decide, "Well, I really want credits, but the Wheel is there too, and that's too confusing for me, so I'll go buy a new Lego set instead."

    When we do straight-up credit promos with nothing else, it usually doesn't go particularly well. We'll still have them, but less often than before as they just aren't as popular, and rarely (though not never) just by themselves. 



  • RangorRangor Member Posts: 3,188 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Make bound credits sellable on the market. While not being transferable between your characters.
    image
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    The people who wanted credits in a credit promo in April, for instance, bought them in April. You can't fault 'choice' as a reason people didn't buy credits during a credit promo, as whether there's no other promo, 1 other promo, or 10 other promos, there are still a bazillion other things they could spend their money on. 

    It's also worth pointing out that even with the credit promo AND the wheel of fortune, April was still the worst month of the year for us. The fact is, people preferred to spend their money on something else other than credits or the wheel of fortune that month, compared to other months. It's not like having the wheel there makes people decide, "Well, I really want credits, but the Wheel is there too, and that's too confusing for me, so I'll go buy a new Lego set instead."

    When we do straight-up credit promos with nothing else, it usually doesn't go particularly well. We'll still have them, but less often than before as they just aren't as popular, and rarely (though not never) just by themselves. 



    Interesting look at the back end of things. I like the lessons promo cause I got a bunch of classes to trans. I can say I'm buying more credits on the market and supplement with my purchases



  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 4,841 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Xaden

    Keep in mind we have way more dragons than ever before, and more getting it weekly.

    Top end gold production is a big big factor. I'd say arguing numbers (when you have none) against someone who has everything isn't a great idea.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    Anedhel
  • AustereAustere TennesseeMember Posts: 2,232 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The none credit sale promos are just better return.  I bought globes, sold pieces, completed sets, and I came out way better than I ever would have during a regular credits sale.  I'm one of the guys that buys elite on the month I get regular credits, so is exceptionally hard for me to justify spending extra money for 40% extra when I can bug globes and double my value.  Should probably nerf globe type returns or tack on extra incentives to buy regular.  

    This month would have been great for regular sales with all these ridiculously cool armor changes, but the fact that I can buy exactly what I want from carts kinda removes the need to buy credits.  Why buy 500 credits when I only need 450 cr worth of toys? 
  • KhaibitKhaibit Member Posts: 372 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I love the gambling promos. 
    I have very little free cash in Rl (mature student.. no loans.. omg dead. Also.. half way through the month the £ got really weak for some reason :( ) and the globes and such allow me to turn my ingame earnings into things that I find entertaining. Did it with the wheel, did it with the globes.. love me some globes. 

    I came out well ahead out of the globe promo (rolls around in giant pile of stuff) and am pretty sure I had enough globes bought in my name to pay several peoples wages this month. 

    Please don't take globes away... I loves them... I'll pay 8000 ish gold for credits with only a little wincing 




  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 5,926 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Magenta said:
    Sarathai said:
    That will result in more people bashing in dragonform, since it requires neither weapons (Gut or Incantation) nor armour (dragonarmour + native resistances, maybe a SoA at most).
    Put a time limit on dragonform in that case.
    Oh, hello there Satan. Besides don't people get more xp bashing in lesser? You'd just be effectively helping them get a higher base health which will just lead them to continue bashing more for gold and the bonus xp. People bash in dragon now I assume because it's quicker and more convenient, for the reasons mentioned.


  • SenaSena Member Posts: 3,954 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kresslack said:
    Besides don't people get more xp bashing in lesser?
    Not any more (unless it's because of killing faster in lesser).
    MelodieKresslack
  • AesgarAesgar Member Posts: 450 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Not sure if this sort of data storage would put stress on the Achaea servers but what if gold generation was capped over 7 or 12 days rather than one. 

    It could be capped identically, something like 1,400,000 gold a week or 2,500,000 gold an Achaean year. But at least this wouldn't be tangibly felt unless you aggressively bash every day. Therefore the cap wouldn't affect those who bash for gold occasionally, whether on their weekends or just when they have time.

    So as @Jhui mentioned it still allows people to go autistic when they can, and only hurts those who do this every day.

    Just an idea!
  • AereidhnaAereidhna DallasMember Posts: 682 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I still think better gold sinks would be ideal (gold auctions are okay but given how rare they are and how high the prices go I don't see them ever really contributing in the long run). Housing for example seems fantastic to me - it's a pretty big gold sink and it doesn't trade gold for buffs that can be used to get more gold, removing the vicious cycle of "I bashed to get stuff to make me a better basher." Mining does generate gold indirectly but also seems to be a good gold sink through upkeep costs. Design fees are to the point where I can easily sink 100k on a normal (multi-piece) project, upwards of 200k on something really fancy or extensive, not to mention design extension and jewelry repair fees.

    I don't know to what extent other players actually dump their gold into things like housing or design, so maybe I'm way off base, but I still am holding out for more gold-based quality of life/fun items. The collectible stuff and useful talisman sets are really great but so much of it (talisman pieces, pets, figurines,etc) are bought OOCly through promotions or traded ICly with credits. Coming up with more of these types of things to buy ICly with gold would make me super happy AND for the most part wouldn't widen the gap between rich and poor/casual/newbie since having a huge house or a ridiculous NDS list doesn't make me better at hunting or combat the way buying credits for arties and skills does.
    Aethele
  • SkyeSkye The Duchess BellatereMember, Seafaring Liason Posts: 2,816 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Mining doesn't generate gold so much as it circulates it.

    Gold circulation is just important because more often than not, it puts gold into the hands of those who will tend to participate in activities that sink it. One problem that's really affected this is how poorly people value their time in terms of curative generation etc.

    Inks and curatives are the most high demand item on the market, yet due to automation etc, people are willing to throw their time away by charging (for example) a paltry 5gp per potash. It would be great if merchants raised their prices in solidarity. Not just because our time should demand it but also because of the horrible gold->credit exchange rate (credits being the so-called true currency of the game). Unfortunately, there's always that one fool who will proceed to undercut everyone and destroy these prices for the sake of a fast profit.


    AereidhnaSharaAchimrstShirszae
  • AerekAerek East Tennessee, USAMember Posts: 1,818 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    The ultimate problem with gold sinks is that large, effective ones are always optional. You can't saddle everyone with a large, effective gold sink, or the game becomes too logistically tedious to play. Your gold sink has to target the rich, but you can't force people to participate in such a sink. If they refuse to pay into it and just continue to clean out the credit market, or whatever else the Admin finds detrimental to the game writ large, then all the gold sinks in the world don't help.

    At the end of the day, gold generation is the faucet that has to be adjusted to match average consumption, in order to keep the economy in something resembling balance, and obviously that adjustment has to take place at the high levels. And really, I just can't fathom the level of wealth generation that has apparently been going on. I have played for over a decade, and while I am largely unartefacted and don't consider myself an avid hunter, I don't hunt weak things and I'm pretty efficient about it when I do hunt, and I still top out at about 30k/hr.

    When folks are complaining about 150-300k a day, I don't feel like we're playing the same game. I would have to bash for 5-10 hours straight to match that. I have trouble wrapping my head around how you could be generating that kind of money, or for how long you must be bashing at a time, and literally have trouble coming up with ways to spend that much money on a regular basis. (Kinda like doctors, CEOs, and celebrities in real life)

    So I don't know. Might be a painful belt-tightening for some, but sometimes the good of the many outweighs the good of the few, and it sounds like the few have been blowing the many out of the water for a while now.
    -- Grounded in but one perspective, what we perceive is an exaggeration of the truth.
    AereidhnaSarapisDrot
  • BleakBleak Member Posts: 350 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    The gold cap is about 160k now, I think. I understand why its put in place, but I also understanda why people, who used to bring in 500k or more a day, are upset. 
  • AereidhnaAereidhna DallasMember Posts: 682 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Yeah, 150k-200k a day is fairly reasonable to me (although it does seem somewhat punitive to those of us who don't have time to hunt during the week or whatever so we marathon one or two days). In some ways it makes me want to hunt -more- because I know there's a limit, so I want to reach it.

    I have a hard time imagining the level of wealth that some folks have accumulated, but I can do 50k-70k an hour in Annwyn/UW for example - I generally top out at 40k an hour on the mainland or Meropis though because Annwyn/UW are so often hunted out. Most of my gold still comes from selling credits due to lack of time to hunt (and lately semi-dormancy due to health issues). Also, the new ship trades make me want to do gold trades since they are actually a somewhat decent ROI, so I've been putting a bit of time into that.

    I get that large-scale gold sinks like what I was discussing are optional, and so aren't a definitive solution, but I think in addition to the cap on gold generation they could potentially help - I'm not suggesting them as the only solution by any means.
  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,864 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    Xaden said:
     Or the 6 months of non-credit based promo's that have driven supply down and raised prices to 9000+ ?
    This is why it's really difficult to have an actual discussion here sometimes. You're getting worked up over something that is blatantly just nonsense.  In the past 6 months, 2 of the months have been credit promos. April and January. 
    We feel the same way, to be honest! Those two months also had different promotions running with them (the artefact cart, and the wheel - which was extremely popular). They weren't just "credit sale" months.

    No one is arguing that having credit only sales are better for your bottom line. You've been pretty clear that the directions the promotions have taken is because they perform much better.

    We are saying the credit market, cities, houses, (and mentors - that's a new one I'm throwing in now) have suffered because of lack of credits from the promotions that have been run (that are all really cool and fun!).

    In the 2 days of July, the credit market has already gone down an average of 200-400 gold depending on what time of day you look. In June I struggled to find ANY credits below 9000, since July 1st there has been more than enough credits for everyone at sub 9000 prices, and a lot hitting 8600.

    We understand you are a business and need money. We're asking that you look at different ways of giving the bonuses to houses, cities, and mentors that have dropped off significantly due to the style of promotions that have been run. And to also find some way to adjust the credit market so new and old players alike can grow their characters at the speed they used to.

    Penwize
  • CooperCooper IowaMember Posts: 4,864 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    So, I decided to grep my logs for when I checked CFS. The results are pretty much what we thought.

    From my logs that start early January 2014 to January 1st 2016 the credit market hovered around 6000-6500, with some time down to 5500 and some times close to 7k.

    January 1st, 2016 starts an upward trend - starting at 6k flat, averaging over 6.5k by the 15th, 6700 by the 30th.

    February - hovered around 6500 most of the month

    March - broke 7k early in the month, ended hovering at 7300

    April - broke 8k by the 28th according to my logs, could have happened sooner

    May - hovered just over 8k most of the month, spiking to 8.4k a few times.

    June - hovered at 8.9k with several long spikes to 9.3-9.4k

    During those months a lot of things changed with gold generation.

    My time scale is a bit iffy, but ahmetite and the golden braid were significantly nerfed. Some classes were buffed in bashing but a lot were nerfed. In the end that probably balanced out to be a bit of an overall buff.

    Since my logs went back as far as 2014, and showed that credits hovered at or very close to 6000 gold for 2 years, it's a pretty good indicator that high end gold generation wasn't influencing it that much.

    Since January 1, however, we haven't had a strictly "credits only" sale - which we all have been told are bad sales for IRE, we get that! However, the gold increases very highly correlate with the promotions, rather than bashing.

    Also of some note, battlerage was a plus and minus for gold generation - minus in that artefacted players/dragons generate gold slower due to artefacts and stats not affecting battlerage damage and generation. Plus because instead of bashing the sidhe in 7 minutes and generating 21k gold and moving on to the next area I bash sidhe in X time (haven't measured honestly) but generate more gold, allowing more mob uptime and more people being able to bash.

    Anyway, this has been kind of long winded without a lot of direction, but the point I'm trying to make is that while people can say the credit market is fucked because of gold generation, it's pretty clear that gold generation is a much, much smaller part than the promotions that have been run.

    Sethra
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    Cooper said:
    So, I decided to grep my logs for when I checked CFS. The results are pretty much what we thought.

    From my logs that start early January 2014 to January 1st 2016 the credit market hovered around 6000-6500, with some time down to 5500 and some times close to 7k.

    January 1st, 2016 starts an upward trend - starting at 6k flat, averaging over 6.5k by the 15th, 6700 by the 30th.

    February - hovered around 6500 most of the month

    March - broke 7k early in the month, ended hovering at 7300

    April - broke 8k by the 28th according to my logs, could have happened sooner

    May - hovered just over 8k most of the month, spiking to 8.4k a few times.

    June - hovered at 8.9k with several long spikes to 9.3-9.4k

    During those months a lot of things changed with gold generation.

    My time scale is a bit iffy, but ahmetite and the golden braid were significantly nerfed. Some classes were buffed in bashing but a lot were nerfed. In the end that probably balanced out to be a bit of an overall buff.

    Since my logs went back as far as 2014, and showed that credits hovered at or very close to 6000 gold for 2 years, it's a pretty good indicator that high end gold generation wasn't influencing it that much.

    Since January 1, however, we haven't had a strictly "credits only" sale - which we all have been told are bad sales for IRE, we get that! However, the gold increases very highly correlate with the promotions, rather than bashing.

    Also of some note, battlerage was a plus and minus for gold generation - minus in that artefacted players/dragons generate gold slower due to artefacts and stats not affecting battlerage damage and generation. Plus because instead of bashing the sidhe in 7 minutes and generating 21k gold and moving on to the next area I bash sidhe in X time (haven't measured honestly) but generate more gold, allowing more mob uptime and more people being able to bash.

    Anyway, this has been kind of long winded without a lot of direction, but the point I'm trying to make is that while people can say the credit market is fucked because of gold generation, it's pretty clear that gold generation is a much, much smaller part than the promotions that have been run.
    Cool.  I agree. Yes. Nope. Promotions. Reasons :/



  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2016
    I think your timeline doesn't catch a lot of things in upward trending gold generation. This year is a point where a lot of people started hunting up tons of gold, initially with Ahmetite/Braid. That trend can be seen in this post:
    ANNOUNCE NEWS #4525                                     (03/10/2016 at 17:19)  
    From   : Tecton the Terraformer
    To     : Everyone
    Subject: Updates - March 10
    We've got a bunch of new updates and bugfixes ready to go! Here are the details:

    * Ahmetite and the Golden Braid relic bonuses have been scaled back.
    So at this point more gold was coming in significantly. Coincides pretty well with your timeline that gold generation is becoming a problem, reflected in CFS prices rising. Didn't solve the problem then because still had a small handful of people bringing in huge amounts of gold and hoarding credits off CFS.

    Didn't you yourself say you instant-bought all credits under a certain price and instantly resold them? You really can't complain about CFS or try to make points with the data when you're personally trying to make the market rise via your actions. Just sayin.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    AnedhelAethele
  • GrandueGrandue Member Posts: 382 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Daeir said:
    Maybe it's time to introduce cfs arbitrage fees to prevent flipping from being a thing, if it is causing harmful rises in average CFS prices.

    For example:

    You purchase 300 credits off CFS for 8600, and attempt to relist them at 8700. You are stopped by a prompt that informs you that due to your recent activity purchasing credits from the market, your transaction will be levied with a 5% fee that disappears into the system when a player purchases a credit from you at that price. They pay 8700 per credit, you receive 8265 per credit. The difference is removed from the game permanently.

    This will prevent opportunistic arbitrage from high wealth players which typically has a negative effect on prices for everyone else, but still keep it fair for those who are actively purchasing credits.

    Also, the commodity market has similar issues. Had I a million sovereigns to sink into commodity flipping, I'm fairly sure I could triple that initial investment within a week without difficulty due to the lack of broker fees. Eve Online makes Achaean markets look like child's play.
    I don't think we should attach a broker fee to some and not all people. If we slap a broker fee on CFS then it needs to apply to all people. Buying low and selling higher is a legitimate business. Charging a broker fee would only make prices go up or people would bypass it through direct sales. 
  • DaeirDaeir AustraliaMember Posts: 6,276 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    No, it doesn't. A 5% one-way free cripples opportunistic low-margin arbitrage whilst still keeping the system open and accessible for the vast majority of people to use without thought.
  • BorranBorran Member Posts: 845 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    You could always increase endurance/willpower drains on bashing abilities. Someone that can't bash ALL THE TIME can't generate enough gold to break the caps.

  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    Cooper said:
    Sarapis said:
    Xaden said:
     Or the 6 months of non-credit based promo's that have driven supply down and raised prices to 9000+ ?
    This is why it's really difficult to have an actual discussion here sometimes. You're getting worked up over something that is blatantly just nonsense.  In the past 6 months, 2 of the months have been credit promos. April and January. 
    We feel the same way, to be honest! Those two months also had different promotions running with them (the artefact cart, and the wheel - which was extremely popular). They weren't just "credit sale" months.

    I addressed this above.
  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Borran said:
    You could always increase endurance/willpower drains on bashing abilities. Someone that can't bash ALL THE TIME can't generate enough gold to break the caps.
    I think they already have.... maybe...
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    edited July 2016
    Daeir said:
    No, it doesn't. A 5% one-way free cripples opportunistic low-margin arbitrage whilst still keeping the system open and accessible for the vast majority of people to use without thought.
    Yeah, it's something we've discussed, but if we wanted to kill speculation (what you're talking about isn't arbitrage) we'd just make all credits bought from the credit market bound.
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    Skye said:
    Mining doesn't generate gold so much as it circulates it.

    It does the opposite of generating gold! Mining is a large gold sink.
    Grandue
  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,770 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Borran said:
    You could always increase endurance/willpower drains on bashing abilities. Someone that can't bash ALL THE TIME can't generate enough gold to break the caps.
    Increasing endurance and willpower costs punishes everybody, and punishes those who weren't causing problems more than those who were, since the people who can bash high level places "endlessly" have higher endurance and willpower pools (due to being high level) and higher regeneration rates (due to artefacts and miniskills).
    Shirszae
  • GreysGreys Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 713 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    Skye said:
    Mining doesn't generate gold so much as it circulates it.

    It does the opposite of generating gold! Mining is a large gold sink.
    Yay! I'm part of the solution!
    SarapisYen
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    Dittos



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