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Gold Generation

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  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    After getting over my initial grump with this : If it's for the betterment of the game then fine, let's see how it goes. 

    The promo's, however, do need to be looked at, without question.
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

    Trilliana
  • KhaibitKhaibit Member Posts: 372 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Sarapis said:

    Somewhat related on a comedic note, my wife and I were watching a screen while eating dinner tonight, and Hudson Hawk was on. It’s a terrible, early ‘90s movie starring Bruce Willis as a cat burglar. It’s pretty bad. 

    But this quote made me chuckle because of this discussion about the value of gold. It’s from one of the main villains, who are working on a way to turn iron into gold.

    After a couple years of steady production, we’ll flood the market with so much gold that gold itself – the foundation of all finance – will lose its meaning. Brokers, economists, fellow entrepreneurs will drown in the saliva of their own nervous breakdowns! Markets will crash crash financial empires will crumble crumble.

    You do have to imagine it being said by Sandra Bernhardt though, in a super campy villainess role.

    Don't you mock Hudson Hawk! 
    That film is amazing! 
    And now i am going to have to go watch it again



  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    Khaibit said:
    Sarapis said:

    Somewhat related on a comedic note, my wife and I were watching a screen while eating dinner tonight, and Hudson Hawk was on. It’s a terrible, early ‘90s movie starring Bruce Willis as a cat burglar. It’s pretty bad. 

    But this quote made me chuckle because of this discussion about the value of gold. It’s from one of the main villains, who are working on a way to turn iron into gold.

    After a couple years of steady production, we’ll flood the market with so much gold that gold itself – the foundation of all finance – will lose its meaning. Brokers, economists, fellow entrepreneurs will drown in the saliva of their own nervous breakdowns! Markets will crash crash financial empires will crumble crumble.

    You do have to imagine it being said by Sandra Bernhardt though, in a super campy villainess role.

    Don't you mock Hudson Hawk! 
    That film is amazing! 
    And now i am going to have to go watch it again

    If the Mario brothers weren't New Jersey's third-largest crime family, I'd say, "Kiss my ass." But considering your status, I will say, "Slurp my butt."
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited June 2016
    Sarapis said:
    Khaibit said:
    Sarapis said:

    Somewhat related on a comedic note, my wife and I were watching a screen while eating dinner tonight, and Hudson Hawk was on. It’s a terrible, early ‘90s movie starring Bruce Willis as a cat burglar. It’s pretty bad. 

    But this quote made me chuckle because of this discussion about the value of gold. It’s from one of the main villains, who are working on a way to turn iron into gold.

    After a couple years of steady production, we’ll flood the market with so much gold that gold itself – the foundation of all finance – will lose its meaning. Brokers, economists, fellow entrepreneurs will drown in the saliva of their own nervous breakdowns! Markets will crash crash financial empires will crumble crumble.

    You do have to imagine it being said by Sandra Bernhardt though, in a super campy villainess role.

    Don't you mock Hudson Hawk! 
    That film is amazing! 
    And now i am going to have to go watch it again

    If the Mario brothers weren't New Jersey's third-largest crime family, I'd say, "Kiss my ass." But considering your status, I will say, "Slurp my butt."
    Wtf... Again not sure if offended or aroused




  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    It's a quote from the movie. ;)
    Shara
  • SzanthaxSzanthax San DiegoMember Posts: 1,906 @ - Epic Achaean
    Sarapis said:
    It's a quote from the movie. ;)
    Ah... Ok lol. I'm easily cornfused



  • KhaibitKhaibit Member Posts: 372 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited June 2016
    Sarapis said:
    Khaibit said:
    Sarapis said:

    Somewhat related on a comedic note, my wife and I were watching a screen while eating dinner tonight, and Hudson Hawk was on. It’s a terrible, early ‘90s movie starring Bruce Willis as a cat burglar. It’s pretty bad. 

    But this quote made me chuckle because of this discussion about the value of gold. It’s from one of the main villains, who are working on a way to turn iron into gold.

    After a couple years of steady production, we’ll flood the market with so much gold that gold itself – the foundation of all finance – will lose its meaning. Brokers, economists, fellow entrepreneurs will drown in the saliva of their own nervous breakdowns! Markets will crash crash financial empires will crumble crumble.

    You do have to imagine it being said by Sandra Bernhardt though, in a super campy villainess role.

    Don't you mock Hudson Hawk! 
    That film is amazing! 
    And now i am going to have to go watch it again

    If the Mario brothers weren't New Jersey's third-largest crime family, I'd say, "Kiss my ass." But considering your status, I will say, "Slurp my butt."
    Oh, no! You love me! It's your job! You probably love Butterfinger over there. -points at @Szanthax -




    Szanthax
  • KietKiet Member Posts: 3,159 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Ahmet said:
    Not to mention you have people like me who have way more than 500 hours bashing and aren't even 90 yet u.u.
    what how, even dragon is only like 300-400 hours
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kiet said:
    Ahmet said:
    Not to mention you have people like me who have way more than 500 hours bashing and aren't even 90 yet u.u.
    what how, even dragon is only like 300-400 hours
    Because until recently I was a fully unartied serpent, I like multitasking, and I die more often than I should. 
    Huh. Neat.
  • KresslackKresslack Florida, United StatesMember Posts: 6,009 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Not everyone has that exact science of how to reach dragon down, or even really the time to invest in it. After six or so years I'm still not dragon, but that's for a few reasons. I don't like hunting; it's boring and I don't really like the repetition/grind of it. I figure every once in a while when I've the time to get on I'll go kill some things and then one of these days I'll get there.


    TrillianaAhmetMelodie
  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    I just came back, and admittedly, my overall knowledge of Achaea seems to be outdated. But, a few ideas to throw into the mix to see what may be of assistance. Additionally, good work on the diminishing returns on the supply end of the problem.

    1. One of the particular problems mentioned here is the amount of credits purchased by the top few percent of top-tier bashers. Warcraft, for example, uses as a partial solution to the gold sink problem an "auction house cut" system. Currently, our credit market simply allows for the exchange of credits, without removing gold from the economic system. What about instating a gold sink in the form of a fee for each transaction on the credit market? Perhaps a flat 5% taken from the cost of the credit transaction, that is then dumped out of the system? Or more aggressively, a floating percent based off the net worth of the character?
    2. The gold auctions for artie armour right now are a well timed initiative. But, only the winner of the auction pays, and this is inefficient for gold destruction. Websites like Beezid and QuiBids use an interesting "pay per bid" scheme. I'm not sure if the concept is copyrighted, but I submit it as a possible idea: pay for the right to place a  bid (in gold) on all auctions.
    3. Eve Online has a full-time economist on staff. While Achaea may not need one full time, having an economist on retainer for consults from time to time may be helpful to adjust factors and get ahead of changes as they crop up.
    4. Another neat gold sink from Warcraft would also target high-end hunters more specifically: equipment damage. The idea is simple: weapons and armour take equipment damage with both use and upon death, this damage must be repaired using gold.
    5. An idea that I thought of some time ago may be of use, and is completely original to my knowledge. It will take some explaining. The idea is to impose a dynamic equilibrium of sorts; see below for my explanation.
    • Pick a target amount of gold that you would like for the game system to have in active circulation, ie. in the hands of adventurers.
    • Double this target amount of gold. The new portion of the gold, we call "gold yet to be claimed". This gold is to be the one supply of gold all gold is generated from. It is in the background, and not yet in the hands of a single adventurer.
    • On an ongoing basis, measure the amount of gold in "active circulation", versus the amount of "gold yet to be claimed". When they are equal, set a system multiplier of x1.
    • When there is 5% more gold in "active circulation", decrease global gold production by 5% (ie. system multiplier becomes 0.95). Also, increase the cost of gold sinks by 5%.
    • When there is 5% less gold in active circulation, increase gold production, and decrease gold sink costs.
    The idea with this last suggestion is that gold is never created nor destroyed. It simply changes state between "active circulation" and "yet to be claimed", with an automatically computed multiplier to encourage the system back toward equilibrium when it's out of whack with an appropriate amount of force.

    image
  • CynlaelCynlael Member Posts: 3,257 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Holy shit Nizaris is alive.

    MelodieTrillianaShirszaeAntidas
  • TeshaTesha Member Posts: 2,914 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    For future cases, would it be possible for houses/cities to just get an equivalent percentage of sales from the gambling promotions, @Sarapis @Makarios @Nicola? Credit prices went from 6500 to 9000 over the last few months and it seems like people generally bought more gambling things than credits. This is great for IRE's revenue but are there any reasons to exclude house/city credit generation from gambling promotions? I'd love to be more generous with creditsales to help out newbies.

     i'm a rebel

    SkyeMelodieYen
  • AhmetAhmet Wherever I wanna beMember Posts: 3,370 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited July 2016
    @Nizaris you'd have to tune your point 5 to the number of active achaeans, and the way each of them is using or abusing their bank accounts. It's all fine and dandy to say you want 10mil in active circulation as long as thirty or forty people are actively earning and spending that, but what about when one person is hoarding all the gold they can get their hands on for credits, or because there's just nothing that interests them? Does everyone else lose out because of the one? Or when only one person is buying credits to inject into the economy? What about someone who doesn't participate in activities that have gold sinks attached? What about when ten players go dormant and the scales shift? Or when you get twenty new regulars coming in? And if you don't count gold that's been sitting in bank accounts or packs for decades like this, what about when someone drops 40mil into the economy on a whim? What about when the gold sinks don't account for enough, and you empty the "gold yet to be claimed"? Are the people whose primary sources of revenue come down to system-generated gold (aka not-merchants) just completely screwed? Seems like a sound theory when taken at face value, but it just doesn't seem like it would work as well as you make it sound in an economy like Achaea's, where gold sinks are by and large completely optional.

    I dunno. I felt ranty. Sorry :anguished: 
    Huh. Neat.
  • AetheleAethele Member Posts: 39 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I'm curious about how the July promotion will affect some of this. Artie discount will definitely increase purchases. Will houses/cities get a cut of credits as if people bought credits and then used those on arties? Having the sale go through the website should keep the sale from increasing credit prices. Or will artefacts bought in game also be discounted? 

  • NizarisNizaris The Holy City of MhaldorMember Posts: 537 ✭✭✭✭✭ - Grand Achaean
    Hi @Ahmet,

    Thanks for reading the post. I agree with you. Any system would require tuning. Point #5 definitely belongs inside of a "constellation" of solutions, both on the generation and destruction sides. I thought about coding up a simulation and running it, but any such simulation would need hard data that no one would have save for the administration. My primary goal was to generate a few ideas in rough formats that could be tuned with this hard data.

    A couple of points.

    You mention that gold sinks as presently implemented are more or less optional. I agree with this. Gold sinks need to become more mandatory. Stated more aptly, the average character in the game needs to be made more and more likely to be subject to gold sinks in order to play the game.
    • It was pointed out that one significant situation where inflation is readily noticeable is in the credit market, as wealthy players tend to buy more credits. So, I propose a tax upon the rich here: sink gold via a tax on the total value of credits purchased. You buy more credits, you pay more tax.
    • It was pointed out that one of the impacts of top tier bashing is that those bashers have more arties. While the point that I made in #4 wouldn't work for regular arms and armour paid for in gold (in the long run, it's cheaper to replace worn out equipment than it is to repair it). Instead, I propose equipment damage to be in effect for artefacts alone. Artefacts wouldn't decrease in strength as they took damage, nor would they be destroyed; they would simply no longer be effective when at 0% health until they were repaired. You own more artefacts, you pay more in repairs.
    • You mention bank accounts/packs and dormancy. This is a good point. Pick a gold threshold. Pick a threshold of dormancy duration. Slowly decrease the amount of gold in the account/pack and sink it until the total hits the threshold; thereafter cease sinking gold.
    • Increase the amount of gold that organizations must pay to exist: guards cost more, city improvements more, etc. Cities pass this cost on to their shops in the form of taxes. Shops pass this on to consumers.
    • For hoarders, actively sink their gold on hand, in packs, and within accounts over a specific threshold (higher than dormant characters).
    These are just a few points. But to sum all of this up, the general idea is to identify negative behaviours, and then figure out a way to tax those specific behaviours in a mandatory way in order to return gold to the "yet to be claimed" pile with as much quantity and frequency as it is being generated. Don't just make gold sinks that are "in the system" and may be opted into at the discretion of the gold holder; make gold sinks more directly tied to the "abused" activity itself, and which scale on a character-by-character basis with the extent that the behaviour is abused.

    I apologize if this post is too much on reiterating my previous post. Please file it in the "redirect" or "clarify" category. :)

    Niz
    image
  • SarathaiSarathai Member Posts: 2,139 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nizaris said:
    Another neat gold sink from Warcraft would also target high-end hunters more specifically: equipment damage. The idea is simple: weapons and armour take equipment damage with both use and upon death, this damage must be repaired using gold.
    That will result in more people bashing in dragonform, since it requires neither weapons (Gut or Incantation) nor armour (dragonarmour + native resistances, maybe a SoA at most).
    - (Eleusis): Ellodin says, "The Fissure of Echoes is Sarathai's happy place."
    - With sharp, crackling tones, Kyrra tells you, "The ladies must love you immensely."
    - (Eleusian Ranger Techs): Savira says, "Most of the hard stuff seem to have this built in code like: If adventurer_hitting_me = "Sarathai" then send("terminate and selfdestruct")."
    - Makarios says, "Serve well and perish."
    - Xaden says, "Xaden confirmed scrub 2017."



  • MagentaMagenta EuropeMember Posts: 160 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Sarathai said:
    That will result in more people bashing in dragonform, since it requires neither weapons (Gut or Incantation) nor armour (dragonarmour + native resistances, maybe a SoA at most).
    Put a time limit on dragonform in that case.
    ShirszaeRom
  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Magenta said:
    Sarathai said:
    That will result in more people bashing in dragonform, since it requires neither weapons (Gut or Incantation) nor armour (dragonarmour + native resistances, maybe a SoA at most).
    Put a time limit on dragonform in that case.
    OI!! SHUT UP!!
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • AntoniusAntonius Member Posts: 4,807 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Nizaris said:
    It was pointed out that one of the impacts of top tier bashing is that those bashers have more arties. While the point that I made in #4 wouldn't work for regular arms and armour paid for in gold (in the long run, it's cheaper to replace worn out equipment than it is to repair it). Instead, I propose equipment damage to be in effect for artefacts alone. Artefacts wouldn't decrease in strength as they took damage, nor would they be destroyed; they would simply no longer be effective when at 0% health until they were repaired. You own more artefacts, you pay more in repairs.
    A considerable factor for me when buying artefacts is whether or not it reduces the tedious bullshit upkeep required to play Achaea, especially when I go sporadically dormant. I also buy most of my artefacts using real life money, so in my case (and likely others) you'd be actively disincentivizing giving IRE money.
  • BorranBorran Member Posts: 845 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Why are people flocking to defend the reason we have credits priced at 9k gold per?

    AhmetKurdock
  • SethraSethra Member Posts: 3
    Xaden said:
    Borran said:
    Why are people flocking to defend the reason we have credits priced at 9k gold per?
    What's that now? The high yield dragon bashing that has been going on for years resulting in credits at 6500 gold up until December? Or the 6 months of non-credit based promo's that have driven supply down and raised prices to 9000+ ?
    i think he means the 6+ months of gambling promos that discouraged the purchasing of credits (this promo does as well, funnily enough), as well as the introduction of relics/rare minerals that super-optimised bashing
  • JarrodJarrod Member, Seafaring Liason Posts: 3,060 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    People delusional if they think the gold rate hasn't changed drastically in the past 6 months in terms of amount brought in from bashing.
    image
    Cascades of quicksilver light streak across the firmament as the celestial voice of Ourania intones, "Oh Jarrod..."

    Atalkez
  • XadenXaden Member Posts: 2,315 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Jarrod said:
    People delusional if they think the gold rate hasn't changed drastically in the past 6 months in terms of amount brought in from bashing.
    Forgive my ignorance but, what's changed in the past 6 months?
         He is a coward who has to bring two friends as backup to jump people hunting.

  • BleakBleak Member Posts: 350 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited July 2016
    Death cape, Death's call.
  • SarapisSarapis Member, Administrator Posts: 3,398 Achaean staff
    edited July 2016
    Xaden said:
     Or the 6 months of non-credit based promo's that have driven supply down and raised prices to 9000+ ?
    This is why it's really difficult to have an actual discussion here sometimes. You're getting worked up over something that is blatantly just nonsense.  In the past 6 months, 2 of the months have been credit promos. April and January. 
    TyamatBorranAnedhel
  • BleakBleak Member Posts: 350 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    I really like the gambling promo's. Don't stop! Just let me win a veil as well some time. 
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