Latest batch of seafaring changes!

Kresslack

Here's what people don't seem to be understanding about the scale and capability of each type of ship:

]WINDCUTTER

The Windcutter is the smallest of the three available ships, a commission for one available from Hawkins, the Shipwright, among a select few others which reside at the various shipyards that dot the continent of Sapience.

Windcutters are nimble and quick, able to sail more closely into the wind than the other vessels: the Seastrider and the War Galley. They can make turns more quickly, but lack the offensive capability in most situations, and have a slower top speed with the wind compared to what the other design of ships can accomplish. They afford a smaller crew requirement, as well. They are currently only able to be equipped with the Arcanian arm weapon. The commission cost of a Windcutter vessel is priced at 2.5 million gold sovereigns.

[On the Arcadian arm:]

The Arcanian arm, or Thrower, is the smallest of mounted ship weapons used for firing flat objects, such as wardiscs. They are also capable of firing flares. Arcanian arms may be mounted on any deck of a Thalassian seastrider, a Windcutter, or a War Galley.


This is why it's the only weapon the Cutter can get, because it's the only one that will fit. 


SEASTRIDER

Seastriders sport a long, narrow, clinker-built hull spanning a length of over 130 feet, the majority of which is comprised of a sizable main deck lined with a row of oar banks on either side. An elevated quarterdeck sits near to the rear of the ship, directly over the crew's cabins. Three lateen-rigged masts support the model's complex sail plan, interlaced with cordage. Each Thalassian seastrider bears a traditional aft-raked stern, and its bow is adorned by a painting of a large, open eye. In addition, spars projecting from both the brow and stern will generally bear a single bronze lantern each.

The seastrider's sailing speed is best when running downwind or at a broad reach, outpacing windcutters in similar situations. It possesses a wider turn radius and its sail plan cannot beat as close to the wind as a windcutter (with a minimum of two points off the wind as opposed to the windcutter's one), but it makes up for this with greater hull strength, a more efficient rowing complement, and larger deck and cargo hold sizes. Decks are comprised of the quarterdeck, bow, stern, side deck, main deck, and single-room cabin - six decks, or twice that of a windcutter - and cabin interiors can be expanded to a total of five extra rooms via housing credits at twice the standard housing cost. The main deck is the weapons deck, boasting room for up to three weapons composed of any combination of ballistas, onagers, and Arcanian arms.


WARGALLEY

The galley is larger and bulkier than the other two types of ships: the Thalassian Seastrider and the Windcutter. Although slower in response time to the lighter ships and less effective while travelling into the wind, it proves itself to have a much faster cruising speed, more efficient sails and also allows for an arsenal of six weapons, double that of the Seastrider.

The War Galley is made up of seven decks: the quarterdeck, the main deck with starboard and larboard sides, the bow, the lower rowing deck with starboard and larboard sides, the prison hold, the captain's cabin and the storage hold.


Makes sense to me. Play to your strength and the weaknesses of the other ship.

Skye

@Melodie

I just really wanted to use that picture >_>

Aerek

I don't think anyone doesn't understand that, Kresslack. What people are saying is that those speed differences are highly situational. If you're jumped in chops, it doesn't matter. If the wind is coming from the wrong direction in relation to where you need to go, it doesn't matter. That only matters if you can turn into the wind and sail in that direction for a long time, slowly outrunning your pursuer over a matter of minutes. It's not a quick getaway. But that's all a bit tangential, the real crux of the matter is just that it's just not fun to be on perpetual defense. No one wants to play a class no PVP options, literally incapable of fighting back.

I don't want cutters to be "competitive" with striders, (maybe others want this, but I don't) but if I have 3 well-trained crew on a Cutter, and we happen to get accosted by some half-baked solo pirate in a strider...I'd actually like to stay and fight that out. I don't want to be hard-code-forced to run just because you caught me in the wrong ship. I deserve a chance to fight, even at a disadvantage, and cutters just don't have that right now.

Saeva

Oh lord lol I wish Shimi could have sent her trained crew to forceboard onto my ship. I'm sure it would have gone great for them.

Kinilan

Aerek said:

I don't want cutters to be "competitive" with striders, (maybe others want this, but I don't) but if I have 3 well-trained crew on a Cutter, and we happen to get accosted by some half-baked solo pirate in a strider...I'd actually like to stay and fight that out. I don't want to be hard-code-forced to run just because you caught me in the wrong ship. I deserve a chance to fight, even at a disadvantage, and cutters just don't have that right now.

A ballista won't give you a chance in that situation though. A Strider has much more hull health and with one weapon no matter how many people you have you won't out shoot the lone strider pilot. They however can eat much more damage, repair faster and still use the whole host of stupid ammo effects.

You'd just FEEL like you had a chance.

Alrena

Kinilan said:

Aerek said:

I don't want cutters to be "competitive" with striders, (maybe others want this, but I don't) but if I have 3 well-trained crew on a Cutter, and we happen to get accosted by some half-baked solo pirate in a strider...I'd actually like to stay and fight that out. I don't want to be hard-code-forced to run just because you caught me in the wrong ship. I deserve a chance to fight, even at a disadvantage, and cutters just don't have that right now.

A ballista won't give you a chance in that situation though. A Strider has much more hull health and with one weapon no matter how many people you have you won't out shoot the lone strider pilot. They however can eat much more damage, repair faster and still use the whole host of stupid ammo effects.

You'd just FEEL like you had a chance.

You could go sea monster hunting a bit more easily with a ballista though. I'm in favour of it!

Ahmet

Melodie said:

Skye said:

Cutter's manoeuvrability still a big bonus though

Unlike Ramsey's arrows though, you don't need to be directly facing the target, just within a certain range of meterons. So unless you constantly out-wavecall them to whatever amount puts you out of range of onager/ballista, you're pretty bonered.

This assumes you're in a stretch of open ocean, of course. Things get different in chops, but that's not something you can predict.

TOO SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON

Borran

Why shouldn't people be able to casually sail?

What is so wrong with recreational sailing that these people deserve to be at the mercy of every griefs as asshat on the open water? I loved sailing before it became a huge pvp arena where anyone that could kill you costed you thousands of gold. 

And how are you supposed to learn if you're just going to get wrecked?

If windcutters don't have a place in combat,  make windcutters non-pvp ships. They can't attack and can't be attacked. 

Saying casual players have no place on the sea is limiting the content they can experience as well, as ships are now a mode of transportation between areas.

Saeva

I alllllmost like the idea of cutters who are not flying a city fleet specific flag  being removed from open PK at sea at this point, mostly because I know how limited they are to engaging with much of anything more than fishing and trade deals. It's kind of just unfortunate for all cutter owners at the moment. Btw I'm not even a cutter owner so it's not like it benefits me.

Jonathin

I like the idea, too, but it'd have to be more restricted to who could claim the no-pk flag or you'll end up with nearly the same problem we had years ago with only a handful of ships that can actually be attacked.

Anaria

Removing some ships but not others from open pk at sea is a monumentally bad idea.

Kiet

No thanks if you remove cutters from pvp everyone just gonna sail a non-cityflag cutter and the sea will just be artanis vs jinsun vs targ's strider on repeat forever

Borran

Kiet said:

No thanks if you remove cutters from pvp everyone just gonna sail a non-cityflag cutter and the sea will just be artanis vs jinsun vs targ's strider on repeat forever

Isn't that what it is now,  with some fodder between to fill their strongboxes?

Borran

Nobody goes out in a cutter looking for conflict. If you're not the predator, you're the prey. That means all cutters are just waiting to be victims.  

Kiet

No, because contrary to popular belief a well-manned cutter is not completely helpless in the first place. They can't sink a strider, but they can certainly get away.

Inuad

Kiet said:

No, because contrary to popular belief a well-manned cutter is not completely helpless in the first place. They can't sink a strider, but they can certainly get away.

As others have mentioned, though, always running away gets tiresome after a while. Should people who cannot afford twice the cost of a cutter (or four times) be penalized by requiring them to constantly run regardless? I'm not sure I agree with that.

Anaria

Yesterday was pretty awesome actually. We formed up a big convoy with sea striders to protect the trade ships. I recorded the whole thing using mudlets replay feature. Maybe one of these days I'll make a youtube video out of it. Five minutes into the trade run we ran straight into a pirate who was intending to intercept the trades ships and sank him. Good times.

There is a pecking order to the oceans when it comes to ships and combat. Windcutters have never been able to stand up to sea striders, forceboarding aside, since even before the overhaul began. Nobody cared because the windcutter had a lot more utility back then to make up for this deficiency. The trouble is, with trades being so crappy for so long, cutter owners have been totally screwed trying to make them work in an ocean that is all about combat capability now (against other ships or monsters).

The answer is not to beef up cutters. The answer is to beef up trades and give cutters a purpose again. The 200K deal was a small step in the right direction, but we need more. We really need the 25 bound credit and Mayan Crown deals back, even if they are rare.

That being said, I'm not against wardiscs doing a small amount of hull damage again or something. I think giving them ballistas though might be a step too far, though I'm not totally against that either.

Kiet

Inuad said:

Kiet said:

No, because contrary to popular belief a well-manned cutter is not completely helpless in the first place. They can't sink a strider, but they can certainly get away.

As others have mentioned, though, always running away gets tiresome after a while. Should people who cannot afford twice the cost of a cutter (or four times) be penalized by requiring them to constantly run regardless? I'm not sure I agree with that.

If you don't want to run away, then get a strider? If you don't want to run away in mainland pvp, you also have to learn to fight (which takes much longer than learning to sail) and generally get some arties.

Realistically, if you can afford 2.5 million gold, you're already in the top earners, getting a bit more shouldn't be impossible.

Kiet

Also, I wouldn't call several cities with supposedly opposite ideologies teaming up 'awesome', but that's just me

Inuad

Kiet said:

Inuad said:

Kiet said:

No, because contrary to popular belief a well-manned cutter is not completely helpless in the first place. They can't sink a strider, but they can certainly get away.

As others have mentioned, though, always running away gets tiresome after a while. Should people who cannot afford twice the cost of a cutter (or four times) be penalized by requiring them to constantly run regardless? I'm not sure I agree with that.

If you don't want to run away, then get a strider? If you don't want to run away in mainland pvp, you also have to learn to fight (which takes much longer than learning to sail) and generally get some arties.

Realistically, if you can afford 2.5 million gold, you're already in the top earners, getting a bit more shouldn't be impossible.

I've bolded the important part. I completely disagree with the notion that someone who can afford 2.5 could afford 5. They could well be someone who has saved for a RL year to get a ship, because that's what they want to do. 

As to the mainland PVP comparison, I think it's completely off base. There have been several top tier fighters who have no artefacts (or perhaps 2.5 million gold worth of artefacts). Spending more on mainland PVP gives you an advantage, but it does not mean your unartied opponents are forced to run any time you engage them.

That's not to say a windcutter should see an advantage against a seastrider, but saying "tough luck" because someone didn't fork over an extra two and a half million is a bit alienating for the majority of players who opted for the less expensive option.

Kresslack

Aerek said:

I don't think anyone doesn't understand that, Kresslack. What people are saying is that those speed differences are highly situational. If you're jumped in chops, it doesn't matter. If the wind is coming from the wrong direction in relation to where you need to go, it doesn't matter. That only matters if you can turn into the wind and sail in that direction for a long time, slowly outrunning your pursuer over a matter of minutes. It's not a quick getaway. But that's all a bit tangential, the real crux of the matter is just that it's just not fun to be on perpetual defense. No one wants to play a class no PVP options, literally incapable of fighting back.

I don't want cutters to be "competitive" with striders, (maybe others want this, but I don't) but if I have 3 well-trained crew on a Cutter, and we happen to get accosted by some half-baked solo pirate in a strider...I'd actually like to stay and fight that out. I don't want to be hard-code-forced to run just because you caught me in the wrong ship. I deserve a chance to fight, even at a disadvantage, and cutters just don't have that right now.

Sometimes a quick getaway isn't an option. That's where deception and guile come in. There are a lot of strategies that can be employed to confuse or elude your pursuers. Sail into the wind at your advantage, when you're far enough ahead, throw up cloaking then cut off to one side, or double back. If they're not firing flares, sit still and wait for them to pass you. All you really have to do is get out of side/shipwarning range. That shouldn't be too difficult if you're aware of your surroundings and taking advantage of the ships' strengths.

There is absolutely no reason that anyone on a Cutter should see a Strider and, even thinking they can outrun it say, "We'll at least we can put up a good fight". They're simply not built for that purpose. This is why the ship info for Cutters specifically states "lacks offensive capability is most situations".

If anything, maybe consideration to allow chainshot to be fired from Arcadian arms, but that's likely to be a pretty debatable change.

Borran said:

Why shouldn't people be able to casually sail?

What is so wrong with recreational sailing that these people deserve to be at the mercy of every griefs as asshat on the open water? I loved sailing before it became a huge pvp arena where anyone that could kill you costed you thousands of gold. 

And how are you supposed to learn if you're just going to get wrecked?

If windcutters don't have a place in combat,  make windcutters non-pvp ships. They can't attack and can't be attacked. 

Saying casual players have no place on the sea is limiting the content they can experience as well, as ships are now a mode of transportation between areas.

No one said anything about casual sailors not having a place on the seas, not being able to sail, or that anything was wrong with recreational sailing...

What was said about casual sailors is that, whether they're interested in ship combat or not, they should at least take time to learn and prepare for the inevitability of it. This is something most casual sailors do not do. At all.

Inuad said:

Kiet said:

No, because contrary to popular belief a well-manned cutter is not completely helpless in the first place. They can't sink a strider, but they can certainly get away.

As others have mentioned, though, always running away gets tiresome after a while. Should people who cannot afford twice the cost of a cutter (or four times) be penalized by requiring them to constantly run regardless? I'm not sure I agree with that.

Here's an interesting concept: maybe people could actually start joining and participating in their city navies or other maritime groups, which have been around and offer bigger ships to be used, and have for years.

Kiet

Inuad said:

Kiet said:

Inuad said:

Kiet said:

No, because contrary to popular belief a well-manned cutter is not completely helpless in the first place. They can't sink a strider, but they can certainly get away.

As others have mentioned, though, always running away gets tiresome after a while. Should people who cannot afford twice the cost of a cutter (or four times) be penalized by requiring them to constantly run regardless? I'm not sure I agree with that.

If you don't want to run away, then get a strider? If you don't want to run away in mainland pvp, you also have to learn to fight (which takes much longer than learning to sail) and generally get some arties.

Realistically, if you can afford 2.5 million gold, you're already in the top earners, getting a bit more shouldn't be impossible.

I've bolded the important part. I completely disagree with the notion that someone who can afford 2.5 could afford 5. They could well be someone who has saved for a RL year to get a ship, because that's what they want to do. 

As to the mainland PVP comparison, I think it's completely off base. There have been several top tier fighters who have no artefacts (or perhaps 2.5 million gold worth of artefacts). Spending more on mainland PVP gives you an advantage, but it does not mean your unartied opponents are forced to run any time you engage them.

That's not to say a windcutter should see an advantage against a seastrider, but saying "tough luck" because someone didn't fork over an extra two and a half million is a bit alienating for the majority of players who opted for the less expensive option.

There have been top tier fighters with no artefacts, sure. Several years ago. On a handful of classes that are don't scale with arties. And they spent hundreds of hours getting good.

Inuad

Kiet said:

Inuad said:

Kiet said:

Inuad said:

Kiet said:

No, because contrary to popular belief a well-manned cutter is not completely helpless in the first place. They can't sink a strider, but they can certainly get away.

As others have mentioned, though, always running away gets tiresome after a while. Should people who cannot afford twice the cost of a cutter (or four times) be penalized by requiring them to constantly run regardless? I'm not sure I agree with that.

If you don't want to run away, then get a strider? If you don't want to run away in mainland pvp, you also have to learn to fight (which takes much longer than learning to sail) and generally get some arties.

Realistically, if you can afford 2.5 million gold, you're already in the top earners, getting a bit more shouldn't be impossible.

I've bolded the important part. I completely disagree with the notion that someone who can afford 2.5 could afford 5. They could well be someone who has saved for a RL year to get a ship, because that's what they want to do. 

As to the mainland PVP comparison, I think it's completely off base. There have been several top tier fighters who have no artefacts (or perhaps 2.5 million gold worth of artefacts). Spending more on mainland PVP gives you an advantage, but it does not mean your unartied opponents are forced to run any time you engage them.

That's not to say a windcutter should see an advantage against a seastrider, but saying "tough luck" because someone didn't fork over an extra two and a half million is a bit alienating for the majority of players who opted for the less expensive option.

There have been top tier fighters with no artefacts, sure. Several years ago. On a handful of classes that are don't scale with arties. And they spent hundreds of hours getting good.

So if I spend hundreds of hours on a windcutter I can fight back right? I won't have to run away everytime? Comparison is not valid.

@Kresslack what's the point of windcutters, then, if your suggestion is to use bigger ships? As I said before, I don't want windcutters curb stomping a strider, but some effort to make it less run awaaaaaaay might be nice.

Kiet

If you spend hundreds of  hours you can just get the extra 2.5 million gold.

Inuad

Kiet said:

If you spend hundreds of  hours you can just get the extra 2.5 million gold.

Meanwhile, proposing something to make windcutters less run away every time a ship blips by might be nice. That, or simply wiping cutters entirely, and forcing people who want to wade into the seafaring arena to do so with a ship that won't horribly gimp them.

Kiet

Windcutters will never stand a chance against striders unless you buff them to such a level it invalidates striders. Even if you gave them a ballista instead of a thrower they'd still sink just as fast if they stood and tried to fight. All it'd mean is cutters would start shooting each other too, which means most of the people complaining would spend even more time running away from more experienced cutter captains.

Kresslack

Inuad said:

@Kresslack what's the point of windcutters, then, if your suggestion is to use bigger ships? As I said before, I don't want windcutters curb stomping a strider, but some effort to make it less run awaaaaaaay might be nice.

The point of Windcutters (and at this rate it's getting a little redundant) is to offer an entry level or casual sailing opportunity. I said, in direct response to your statement about what should people do if they get tired of running, to try making actually getting involved with their city navies which often have bigger ships just sitting there going to waste.

It's a novel idea, if people would actually just try it. I've never owned a ship. Why? Because my entire time playing Achaea I've never needed to dump millions of gold into a vessel when I've always had ships just sitting in the navy waiting to be used. Sure, it's great to have a ship if you've the expendable income and want one of your own, but I really wish people would stop acting like there aren't alternatives to Cutters, especially ones they don't have to dump millions into.

Years spent in Ashtan and Mhaldor trying to make people aware of this, offering the city ships up to be used, and even comprehensive training for those who were interested but didn't know where to start, or just wanted to learn more. You know what happened? Those ships still just sat there, because people either weren't interested in Seafaring or were more interested in buying their own ship to play captain with.

Less effort to run away in a Cutter? We might as well just give the fucking things wings.

Melodie

I own and sail a personal windcutter.

I sail very often with Mhaldor's navy to sink ships, do trades, and do plenty to support the navy in general.

I still think windcutters aren't in a great position, because 100% defense isn't interesting or engaging.

Edit: Despite a lot of talk here, a windcutter's position has changed a good bit due to the ammo changes and removing forceboard. What a windcutter could do and avoid when I obtained mine has changed a great deal. Now, I support the majority of the changes, but it doesn't mean it still didn't leave windcutter owners in the dark. I've been trying to ponder out a good solution that is viable without invalidating the system, but so far have come up empty. Still thinking on it, though, and assuredly open to ideas.

Inuad

Kresslack said:

Inuad said:

@Kresslack what's the point of windcutters, then, if your suggestion is to use bigger ships? As I said before, I don't want windcutters curb stomping a strider, but some effort to make it less run awaaaaaaay might be nice.

The point of Windcutters (and at this rate it's getting a little redundant) is to offer an entry level or casual sailing opportunity. I said, in direct response to your statement about what should people do if they get tired of running, to try making actually getting involved with their city navies which often have bigger ships just sitting there going to waste.

Less effort to run away in a Cutter? We might as well just give the fucking things wings.

Getting involved with city navies does little to resolve the issue of people sailing in windcutters having to run away every time someone engages them. I'm not discrediting the notion that people should get involved. It's a great idea! But making the "entry level" or "casual" opportunity a bit less redundantly oh...run again...might be nice.

Also, I never said less effort to run away. I said more effort to make cutters less run away every time.

Shirszae

@Kresslack there's also the fact that no matter what, you get into a lot of shit for sinking a navy ship in certain places. Ranging from just being revoked access to major drama. Its just easier, and people feel easier about it, by owning their own ship. 

Its the difference between breaking something that is yours, and breaking something you don't own, no matter how lenient the owner might be about it, there's still a certain unpleasant stress that you have to deal with, and which is honestly not fun.