Latest batch of seafaring changes!

Shimi

Kinilan said:

I agree with Tahquil! Let cutters use old forceboard!

I actually would be okay with this. The other day when Saeva and Kiet attacked my cutter, I had two people who were strong combatants aboard. I would rather have stopped and had them board their ship or been boarded and fought melee. 

Morthif

Nope, completely negates most of the changes. 

Jinsun

I can't lie if I could forceboard again I'd only
sail a cutter 

Jinsun

All I really want is an upgrade token to move the really expensive customizations from my cutter to a new strider

Penwize

The answer is to let cutters use their turning advantage in combat.  Give them massive ramming spikes, dealing hull damage based on their speed on contact.  Ship jousting!

Jinsun

I really want ramming spikes, but the larger ships shouldn't have them. If a strider did that, it'd rip a cutter in half

Szanthax

Sooooo... I just dont understand how people get all this gold. It takes me forever to get like a million gold (and by forever I mean like 3 months of bashing)... I dint have a ship. I have enough credits to buy one... But I just... I dunno.

Jinsun

Szanthax said:

Sooooo... I just dont understand how people get all this gold. It takes me forever to get like a million gold (and by forever I mean like 3 months of bashing)... I dint have a ship. I have enough credits to buy one... But I just... I dunno.

Ships are a terrible waste of gold, and you should just sail with someone else.

Szanthax

Jinsun said:

Szanthax said:

Sooooo... I just dont understand how people get all this gold. It takes me forever to get like a million gold (and by forever I mean like 3 months of bashing)... I dint have a ship. I have enough credits to buy one... But I just... I dunno.

Ships are a terrible waste of gold, and you should just sail with someone else.

Ah do that now. But it amazes me all the ship's. People selling ship's. I can't even buy a ship....

Shirszae

All it takes is one damnably cool ship event for you to fall in love with them.

Kresslack

Calira said:

Kresslack said:

People have been griping about Cutter vs Strider for years, but the fact of the matter is that the cutter is an entry level ship and, for the most part, the Strider is the sweet spot.

I find this mindset that you and others advocate to be very offputting. The fact that Windcutters are 'entry-level ships' does not negate the fact that they should have a niche, which they currently don't. Nor does it negate the fact that ship combat from the perspective of a Windcutter is absolutely awful, especially post seafaring reworks.

A Windcutter engaged by a pirate is put into a situation where they have zero chance to come out on top, with the only outcome resembling victory being that of escaping into a harbour. To achieve the great victory of not completely losing, the Windcutter has to outrun a ship much faster than it, all the while maintaining enough distance to elude Wavescythe, as a single successful volley by the pirate ship will result in being hit by chain-shot and grapples that remove all hope of escape.

On the other hand, getting caught comes with heaps of punishment. At a minimum you're going to get plundered, which you're more vulnerable to due to having fewer swashbucklers and fewer means to train them. Then you're practically guaranteed to be sunk, which can be a massive annoyance (or gold cost) to raise depending on how far from harbour you were. Lastly, to add insult to injury, we've had it very clearly stated that you have no right to seek any sort of vengeance for being stolen from, largely inconvenienced and possibly killed.

The niche that the Windcutter -should- fill is a less capable, less expensive and easy to handle ship designed for small crews of one or two players. They don't fill this currently, though, because the way ship afflictions were designed makes them obscenely potent against small crews while being naught but minor inconveniences to big ones. You mention being clever, but were it not for the increased ability to spam Wavecall, I'm not sure that Windcutters would have any means of escape at all.

'Strider vs. Cutter' isn't a contest, it's a pursuit meant solely for the fun of the Strider at the expense of the Cutter.

That being said, this is just the perspective of a casual seafarer whose few brushes with seafaring combat have been no fun and all stress.

Find it as offputting as you like, but that's the way it is. You're not supposed to be able to go up against a Strider in a Cutter and "come out on top". That sort of thinking is naive and why a lot of people get sunk, because they're too busy victimizing themselves and not actually learning to use the other aspects of Seafaring to their advantage on a cutter. I've outrun many a seamonster and a Strider with naught but myself on a Cutter.

Ship combat from the perspective of a Windcutter is awful? Well no kidding. What do you really expect of a ship which is so small it can only hold certain crew capacity and one very specific weapon? You're not going to be able to go toe-to-toe with a Strider and you're a fool if you try or think you should be able to. However, if you train the crew up properly and learn a few things, you can sail circles around them and make an escape. The ocean is a large place, it's not as hard to slip away as people make it seem.

Windcutters already fill, both in the old system and with the new changes, that very niche you described. They're already less capable, less expensive, and easy to handle ships designed for small crews of one or two players. The ships are doing their parts. It's the players who use them that need to understand they come with those shortcomings and learn to sail in a manner which turns them into an advantage, as well as learning valid strategies for recognizing and avoiding danger whenever possible. Is it always going to be possible? No, but a lot of the times it can be. You'd be surprised how many people still go fishing and sit there without using Shipwarning, or how many people can't start sailing in one direction, activate ship cloaking, and simply reverse direction.

The issue here isn't the ships, it's the 'casual sailor' who just wants to go out for a 'casual sail' and wants to put in 'casual effort' towards understanding Seafaring and keeping their ship afloat. It's been this way for years. That's like someone wanting to go for a 'casual stroll' through UW and not understanding the risks or even how to get out of the area. It's not the ship's fault, it's not the system's fault. It's entirely up to the person piloting and operating the ship to understand the capabilities and the risks, and train themselves to a point of competence.

I can't tell you how many years I've spent in various city navies and organizations trying to explain this to people, and offering hands on training, only for people to ignore the warnings or offers in favour of their 'casual sailing' experience. Then they get sunk by either a creature or another ship and run to the city or forums to gripe about it.

Some things never change, and I suppose they never will.

Armali

Basically what I gathered from these posts is that ships are not for casuals.

Tahquil

Honestly, I just want a ballista so I can trade shots with other ships. I don't care if I'm inevitably going to sink but it sucks about range differences.

Shirszae

I feel like just making it so that Windcutters can only have one weapon, regardless of type, could be fair. A windcutter is not going to win a head-on battle no matter what, but they'd not be useless, at least.

Kinilan

I thought cutters had the right options before when discs did hull damage. But maybe I just really don't like the new ammo stuff.

Jinsun

Kinilan said:

I thought cutters had the right options before when discs did hull damage. But maybe I just really don't like the new ammo stuff.

I dunno I will always be partial to old forceboard because it benefitted me. I liked that, if you picked on a cutter, you might get more than you bargained for. I kinda felt like people with bigger crews feel now, if you were outgunned and don't know combat then it's on you if you choose to attack. Now I just feel like it's just a factor of how many crew mates or ships you have. It takes much less talent to sink now. DPS is boring and it's the reason I left WoW. It just doesn't take much thought.

Calira

Kresslack said:

Stuff

Before getting passive-aggressive, you should perhaps actually read what I wrote. I don't claim that a Windcutter should be able to go "toe-to-toe" with a Strider and "come out on top". I complained that the risk-reward ratio for Windcutters is horrendously skewed to the point where it's all risk and no reward, which is not fun to participate in.

I'm not saying that sitting AFK or sailing without any preparations shouldn't be punishable, or that piracy should be deleted or anything that your hyperbolic response would imply. I'm saying that with the system currently in place, the bar to not get completely destroyed is set too high; there is no middle-ground between 'escape' and 'utter failure', and the system seems to be designed in a way that severely limits the options that Windcutters actually have available to them. Can't forceboard anymore, so there is no way to scare a pirate away or even make them nervous. Can't have access to Cloak and Wavecall at the same time, which all but invalidates the example advice that you gave. Can't have access to Shield and Rainstorm, which simply ups the complexity of dealing with ship fires as a solo-captain. The mechanics of grappling create a situation where the longer you're grappled, the less able you are to escape. And then there's what I mentioned earlier; the fact that the mechanics behind plundering actually make the most helpless ships into the most lucrative targets.

In such a skewed conflict system where only one side stands to gain and the other only stands to lose, the odds should be equally skewed in favour of the defender. Frankly, it should take a lot more effort and skill from a Strider crew to capture a Windcutter than for the Windcutter to escape. Even a 'casual' Windcutter captain who doesn't make any major blunders should be a challenge to take down.

If you see 'casual sailors' as an issue then your attitude needs some serious adjusting. If 'casual sailors' are struggling or not enjoying the system, then that system needs some serious adjusting. Despite your insistence otherwise, Seafaring is nothing like UW/Annwyn; it's a completely unique system that requires a lot more investment to get into,  a lot more punishment for failure at, and offers a lot less in the way of strict rewards. Seafaring as a whole is damaged by being an exclusive club that is unwelcoming or overly punishing towards newer, less experienced participants.

Morthif

You paid pennies on the dollar for your ship vs a strider or galley why should you have as many options? Forceboarding was toxic and a huge deterrent to sailing. Cutter's have good escapability and that's more then enough. Want more? Buy a bigger ship. 

Kiet

We've tried skewing seafaring into defender's side too hard before, that wasn't fun at all. Defender still has advantage as is, you're only in real trouble if you're both outnumbered and you make some mistakes. Sailing solo is a big risk these days, yes, but that's a risk on a strider too (possibly even more there)

Also, sinking is not really as big of an issue as most people make it out to be. Especially on a cutter, the cost to salvage/get all your stores replaced is pretty low.

Tahquil

Just one RL day of bashing worth of gold under current DR levels  

Calira

Morthif said:

You paid pennies on the dollar for your ship vs a strider or galley why should you have as many options? Forceboarding was toxic and a huge deterrent to sailing. Cutter's have good escapability and that's more then enough. Want more? Buy a bigger ship. 

I'm not asking for anything resembling parity between the ships. I'd just like to see the lesser ship get some tuning to make solo captaining it less deadly, since that's the only purpose it is really capable of serving and it's currently so much more vulnerable to attack.

Morthif

If you get caught with your pants down you are screwed no matter what size ship you have. Cutters are super nimble and can sail close to the wind to escape easily 

Melodie

Actually, in a straight-away, a strider will outrun a cutter. And with similar more-experienced crews on both ships, a strider's turning is slower but if you're used to handling it, easy to overcome to keep up with the windcutter.

The only advantage that really comes to mind vs. either is that a windcutter will be able to wavecall more than a strider before someone runs out of endurance. But if you're already grappled, then obviously that's moot.

Morthif

Windcutter, cut into the wind

Melodie

The bonus from cutting into the wind, so to speak, is very marginal, and extremely unhelpful if it's in the opposite direction of a harbour, which is about all you can do to shake off a chasing ship. It has its appeal, but in practice I've not seen a ton of benefit.

Jinsun

Ha don't argue with Morthif as if he knows what he is talking about.

Skye

Cutter's manoeuvrability still a big bonus though

Kresslack

Calira said:

Kresslack said:

Stuff

Rambling

I'll I'm hearing is more whining and victimization. "It isn't fair that I bought a smaller ship and lose to a bigger ship". It's perfectly fair. If you put half us much effort into griping as you did learning you might get somewhere. Seafaring is much like UW in the sense that it's an Open PK environment. You enter the seas at your own risk, regardless if you're prepared or not. 

The system isn't skewed, and there is not exclusive club. In fact, there are many groups and clans out there one can join in order to learn and sail with others to ensure both a good time and protection if need be. 

I don't have an issue with the 'casual sailor'. My issue is with the 'lazy, whiny sailor' who wants the system to be catered to them on their little dinghy.

And for the record, you're not going to "scare way" or "make nervous" a pirate even if you could forceboard. They're the special sort of fucked in the head that, typically when the challenge arises, they meet it with eager grin and a twinkle in their eye.

You want to stop being helpless at sea? Stop playing the victim and either put the effort in to learn or get a bigger ship.

Melodie

Skye said:

Cutter's manoeuvrability still a big bonus though

Unlike Ramsey's arrows though, you don't need to be directly facing the target, just within a certain range of meterons. So unless you constantly out-wavecall them to whatever amount puts you out of range of onager/ballista, you're pretty bonered.

This assumes you're in a stretch of open ocean, of course. Things get different in chops, but that's not something you can predict.

Jarrod

Cutter has to be smart to escape a Strider, but it's advantaged to if you do it right.

Turning is -significantly- faster if you have the same level crew, run into the SoSP or cut tight corners around land masses if you can. Look at the wind. Wind from the SE? Figure out which harbour you can get to by going SSE or ESE, the Strider has to tack or they get zero sail bonus while you get sail bonus.