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Warp Trolls

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  • AntidasAntidas Member Posts: 1,497 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    @Kayeil considering this is an OOC forum, I don't see where the fact that the log was obtained OOCly has literally -anything- to do with anything at all.

    As for Targossas being diplomatic, I don't see why they need to be. Ashton is the one who wants them to do something, not the other way around. I still think that warp wars are stupid, but that doesn't change the fact that you're asking Targossas to be diplomatic, when they have no reason to be.

  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,065 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tael said:
    On an unrelated note, @Atalkez...are you from Eastern Ohio or thereabouts...?
    NE Texas, actually! Why?


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
  • DaironDairon Member Posts: 330 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    I hope people realize that the purpose of this thread is to figure out a way to change mechanics so something mindnumbingly stupid can be avoided. Grandue and the people on Ashtan's side (might as well say ashtani and targossians) aren't asking Targossas to stop using OOC channels. 

    Back on subject - it would be a great idea to implement a warning system for warps. Will post other ideas once I get to my desk.
    AtalkezNataliia
  • AtalkezAtalkez Member Posts: 5,065 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    You submit the idea #1240 'Adjust the Warp system to be handled along the lines of totems. Allow 
    cities(possibly Orgs) to claim Warps, and have city announces sent out that they are being 
    dismantled. This will allow cities to maintain a warp hub and actually have a defense against those 
    who wish to simply dismantle to be a nuisance. Currently it's far too difficult to build a warp, and 
    far too easy to destroy one. A balance needs to be struck, and this seems to be the best way to do 
    so.' for review.

    @Tael stolen, because it was a good idea.


    You hug Aurora compassionately.
    TaelSiduriKyttin
  • DortheronDortheron Member Posts: 343 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    edited April 2016
    Personally I don't think treating wormholes like totems will work. Totems are used as either a personal or org static defense, to punish enemies who either willingly or unwillingly blunder into them and help deal with large groups of enemies. Thus warning about enemies smudging/vines/etc by empowering them are very important as it ultimately helps defend the room (and generally the entire area like cities) by restricting the freedom of movement.

    Wormholes however are just the opposite. They're about movement and the ability for a serpents+stick users to jump from room to room across the same area or between different areas. They are a convenience tool that actually helps offensive actions as others have mentioned before with the mobility it gives serpents.

    The root of the problem with wormholes is two:
    1) difficulty establishing them
    2) the ease of destroying them anonymously
     Most people have a problem with 2, as not only does destroying the efforts people put into wormholes because of 1, but the fact that most of the time they can do so without punishment for the most part.

    @Cooper's suggestion would try to deal with 1 and 2 by merging the two into a limited period and having about the same difficulty in destroying and establishing them.  Empowering them like a totem would definately tackle 2, but doesn't actually stop them from happening and still leaves 1 as a point of frustration when it does happen. @skarash's points about using a medium (like a crystal) for 1 and 2 might help in some manner (needs to be fleshed out) but actually doesn't solve the problem.

    I propose a mix of solutions with a bit of my own.

    Two serpents would still need to be used to start the wormhole. Splicing is a much shorter period with only establishing a wormhole. They can continue to splice to speed it up, but left on it's own the wormhole would continue to develop on it's own. While being constructed, people can attack the wormhole. If left undefended (they start the splice and then leave) the wormhole quickly collapses under attack. If defended (they stuck around while splicing) the wormhole weakens and is unable to grow to be fully developed until after a set amount of time. After fully established, the wormhole resists attacks with a message in both rooms (maybe the local area for serpents or something about the wormhole being under attack with subterfuge sources?) for a certain amount of ticks, and then goes dormant for a set time. After the dormant cooldown, the wormhole can be attacked and collapsed fully, unless one or two serpents splice it again and try to re-establish it. If no one attacks a dormant warp, the warp will reopen over time

    This would deal with 1 by giving them the option to either stick around and risk having it attacked, or let it sit and develop for a longer time. Attackers for warps can strike during it's creation and after, while the worms can be defended after being established by splicing after they go dormant (which kills their use temporarily without actually destroying the warp). While this does increase the time it takes to make the wormholes, it also lengthens the time it takes to completely destroy them. Just setting them dormant might be a viable strategy, as it still stops them from being used without completely destroying them, inspiring conflict of those wanting to use the warps without the potential labor it goes into making them.
    You know, that one thing at that one place, with that one person.

    Yea, that one!
  • HalosHalos San FranciscoMember Posts: 1,473 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Kayeil said:
    Halos said:
    Kayeil said:

    It's not illegal to enter Petra. You only get in trouble for killing their denizens.
    I don't care one way or the other about wormholes. I'd like to just point out that Petra is not mutually allied with anyone. No one "gets in trouble" for killing Petrans.



    ******************[ Current Relations for the City of Ashtan]******************
    Org             Us                  Them
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Petra          Allied              Neutral

    --- They may have not agreed to a mutual alliance, but I haven't heard Ashtan remove their protection of Petrans. Also, it's Kyttin who brought up this warp hub being in a "non-neutral" area. I don't think it being in Petra matters one bit, everyone has access to it.
    Hi. Me again.
    15.4.3 Denizen Alliances
    Certain groups or organisations of denizens may choose to form a mutual alliance with adventurer organisations. In such cases, members of the adventurer organisation have the right to attempt to defend the denizens with whom they are allied.
    Presumably there was some short-lived RP thing 100 years ago and Ashtan just flipped a switch on city relations. That's all. It doesn't mean anything. No one "gets in trouble" for killing Petrans.

    /derail

    AntidasShirszae
  • AodfionnAodfionn Seattle, WAMember Posts: 1,218 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Dortheron/Tael's suggestions seem like they would take a terrible mechanic and at least give it the potential to be fun. Yes plz. 
    Aurora says, "Are you drunk, Aodfionn?" 

    (The Targossian Academy): Halos says, "Go on! I need to feel the wind in my hair!"


    Siduri
  • DortheronDortheron Member Posts: 343 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Halos said:

    Presumably there was some short-lived RP thing 100 years ago and Ashtan just flipped a switch on city relations. That's all. It doesn't mean anything. No one "gets in trouble" for killing Petrans.

    There was an RP event that killed all the Petrans, so there was no Petra TO defend. Petra is still in the process of being rebuilt and rehabilitated, so there isn't really anyone in power to negotiate with to get them to be mutually allied. </RP> No one's RP'ed to get them allied again, especially since that would be a city RP thing and Ashtan has had more important things to deal with post-Ren
    You know, that one thing at that one place, with that one person.

    Yea, that one!
  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    Atalkez said:
    Tael said:
    On an unrelated note, @Atalkez...are you from Eastern Ohio or thereabouts...?
    NE Texas, actually! Why?
    This bit: "I also feel like this needs pointed out."

    That's a fairly rare construction in English (most dialects would say "needs to be pointed out" or "needs pointing out") that's been receiving more attention recently in linguistics for somewhat esoteric reasons. This is actually the first time I've heard of it in Texas.

    http://microsyntax.sites.yale.edu/needs-washed
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,824 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Pretty sure the empowerment thing was actually Skarash's idea, but whatever.

    Saying one doesn't have a right to a feature of a game because they paid 800 credits to access it would apply to a lot of things if you want to go down that path. Oh, well you're not runie or shaman and can't make your own totems so you have no privelege to access even if you pay for it, so pick up those classes yourself or you're screwed. Oh you don't have harvesting so you don't have the privelege of plants, so make your own. Hey you're not a priest, and even if you're Targossan you can't have blessings because you didn't choose priest for yourself. No runes for you non-runies! I mean it's just a dumb argument overall. Don't care if you bought wings, I was standing here first and don't want you here. No campfires or grove rains for you, go make your own. Nah, I only give alchemist empowerments to myself, you can't have them.

    I mean, if anyone is going to take on that attitude, then they just sound like a prick.

    The funny thing is, if you were still Team Ashtan you'd be all pro Grandue and telling Targ how dickish they're being for destroying the warp hub (if it is them). But nah you're team Targ now so Ashtan HAS to be in the wrong and too bad, suck it up, no warp hub for you.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • TaelTael Member Posts: 1,197 @ - Epic Achaean
    edited April 2016
    Kayeil said:
    Pretty sure the empowerment thing was actually Skarash's idea, but whatever.
    I stopped reading the thread closely after everyone started arguing over whether Grandue was a swell guy or not and forum RPing about Ashtan and Targossas, but it looks like Skarash's idea was to either give people personal warnings when their warps were being destroyed or to give area-wide warnings on any destroyed warps.

    I don't think the former is terribly useful in that it relies on the splicers being present, and the latter I think goes perhaps too far. Org empowerment a la totems seems like a better solution to the central problem of conflict over wormholes that are functionally org-owned.
    Kyttin
  • SiduriSiduri Member Posts: 1,599 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A part of me thinks I'm just reading someone desperately trying to turn this thread into an old lovers' quarrel. Please, can we keep on topic and leave the ad hominem?

    I've no idea what's going on with the present Ashtan hub, but I quite clearly remember Ashtan cancelling the hub Kyttin and I spliced IC decades ago. Not just once, like, six times. And we just said 'screw it'. It could simply be payback for that, I've no idea.

    image
    KyttinTrilliana
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,824 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tael said:
    Kayeil said:
    Pretty sure the empowerment thing was actually Skarash's idea, but whatever.
    I stopped reading the thread closely after everyone started arguing over whether Grandue was a swell guy or not and forum RPing about Ashtan and Targossas, but it looks like Skarash's idea was to either give people personal warnings when their warps were being destroyed or to give area-wide warnings on any destroyed warps.

    I don't think the former is terribly useful in that it relies on the splicers being present, and the latter I think goes perhaps too far. Org empowerment a la totems seems like a better solution to the central problem of conflict over wormholes that are functionally org-owned.
    Actually was posted early on that it could be treated like totems, I talked about it in my posts, and was part of the private conversation Skarash and I had about it the other day. He favours certain ideas, I favour other ones. He did speak more on personal warnings to the serpent who empowered, but I brought up that some wormholes are maintained by cities. I still credit Skarash with the main idea, even if he and I have several ideas on how it could be implemented. Either way, it was still very much like totems... the question between he and I was whether it should warn the serpent only or warn the city, or perhaps either way depending on who the warp is claimed by similarly to totems.


    I think @Skarash had some idea about them being able to be empowered like totems so someone gets a notice if it's being attacked, and when it has been dropped.
    That would have to be more fleshed out in if only one individual gets to empower, and if only the creator of the warp can or if someone else can... but what if the creator of the warp goes dormant? And many of these are city created warp hubs created outside of cities, so would cities be able to claim certain wormholes and get a warning like they do when totems are smudged?
    It's an interesting idea, but we didn't get into detail when he mentioned it to me, and I don't know what the best way to implement it would be.


    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • SkarashSkarash Member Posts: 76 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Im not sure I like warps being empowered exactly like totems, generally speaking org-owned and empowered totems are very clearly on org-owned property.  Whereas warps can and are located anywhere.  This makes it a very hazy ground when it comes to defending warps - what if I had a warp built with one end in targ? Now generally the days of putting a warp on enemy ground are long gone and the common sense approach to pk rules make the rest of it a possible non-issue but my instinct is still that empowering warps to give warning to an org when they are being cancelled isnt the right approach.  This is why I instead favour changing the skill such that it doesnt require two serpents to splice a warp.  I feel that would address the imbalance - which is that it takes two serpents to splice a warp and one person with the skill in survival to cancel it.  This would make it so that its still possible to destroy a warp covertly but wouldnt cause massive inconvenience to rebuild. I would also bbbbbbbbbbbrequire that item also be needed to cancel a warp and be purchaseable for a nominal fee - say 5k.


  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,824 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Blessings work for non-Targs. Divine can give them, I've had them several times. Really all I have to do is ask but I don't care to use them. I don't even use runes once a rl month. Also, one could argue they could pay a pair of serpents to make some warps. Though no telling if those warps would remain, but that's the same with personal totems that people get set up in random spots... never know if and when it'll get smuged or pulled out of the ground.

    I could bring up past points where things you've done and used things for yourself that you were blatantly against on forums, but I don't feel like mulling over past incidences that have nothing to do with the argument over the warp hubs. Only stating that I'm not always sure I 100% buy into your 'unbiased' opinions, but that's only based on personal experience with you, and not expecting anyone else to feel the same way. As for me, I'm highly opinionated and don't care if anyone disagrees with me or chooses to dislike me simply because they don't agree with my opinions (without knowing me at all). I don't have any thing to gain from supporting any single faction, including Ashtan. Could even ask Skarash, as of late I've questioned some of Ashtan's choices and ideas and have thought some of them weak or complete deviations from the stronger city they used to be, but that's their thing so they'll play it out and see how it goes.

    Should also state I'm not bff's with Grandue, don't know him all that well. All I've noticed from interactions with him and how extremely helpful he can be is that how you treat him and speak to him seems to go a long way with him, but that may only be the case if you're not in a faction that's always hostile with him and his. For instance, without really knowing me at all, I asked him some questions on mining and instead of giving me short answers or just telling me to figure it out on my own, he set aside a decent chunk of time and taught me a whole lot about it, and answered all of my questions (and has answered more since). He had nothing to gain from teaching me, didn't ask anything in return, not even information on mines or a share in any profits made. So maybe he was undiplomatic, BUT he does have a really good side to him, and he has some great leadership qualities that some of my other favorite leaders in Achaea have. Based on my own experiences, I did feel a bit compelled to defend him when it seemed like he was being painted as a bad person,  but can understand if anyone is put off by his reaction, but I don't feel he reacted that way for no reason whatsoever, and believe there's his side of events and why he felt the need to react how he did, and then there's Targ's side to it.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • DortheronDortheron Member Posts: 343 ✭✭✭✭ - Eminent
    Skarash said:
    This would make it so that its still possible to destroy a warp covertly but wouldnt cause massive inconvenience to rebuild.
    That wasn't the only problem with the difficulty. Would the splice belong to the serpent who created it until it was claimed by that org? Does that mean that houses, orders, clans, and any other org could have claimed, empowered wormholes? Would claiming it mean that orgs could disable the warps for org enemies? Not only that, but only serpents can build but anyone with high enough survival could attack.

    As for the item, lets make it a real gold sink of 25k for each end of the wormhole and another item of 50k to kill the warp (so total 50k to build and destroy the warp). If you're going to be destroying warps, make it a statement of "I have a bigger bank account than you" :p </trolling>
    You know, that one thing at that one place, with that one person.

    Yea, that one!
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,399 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2016
    The argument that you paid 800cr for a vibrating stick so noone should do anything to impinge on your investment is very entitled. People impinge on other people's investments all the time. Walling off clouds, excommunication, Anathema, being thrown out of organisations, raising physical walls or blocking exits, Magi vibes, people owning the same artefact can all affect the perceived value of an artefact.

    But you know what, even with these cancelled warps, the artefact still works.. The artefact never said you would always have all the warps conveniently located next to each other. But damn it, you can still use warps, you're just going to have to tolerate five more seconds of autowalking to get to them.
    Antidas
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,824 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Just a snippet of some convo @Skarash and I are having to expand on some ideas..

    (CLAN): Skarash says, "The problem with empowering warps 
    exactly like totems is that warps are everywhere and anywhere."
    (CLAN): Skarash says, "And Im not sure I like the idea 
    of having cities or houses claim a warp between say thera and 
    mog."
    (CLAN): Skarash says, "And if one city claims a warp can 
    the other city claim it?"
    (CLAN): Skarash says, "I should say another city."
    (CLAN): Skarash says, "Those particular side issues are 
    why I didnt go all in on empowering warps even in the beginning."
    (CLAN): You say, "Wellllll."
    (CLAN): You say, "Look at it this way."
    (CLAN): You say, "If Petra was mutually allied to Ashtan 
    it could maybe give Ashtan the right to place a hub there."
    (CLAN: You say, "Just like Mhaldor tends to put "their" 
    warps in one area. Every city would have a "right" to a certain 
    area, but anywhere else the warps are free game."
    (CLAN): You say, "OR maybe a city can be limited to a 
    certain amount of warps they are allowed to claim."
    (CLAN): You say, "I don't think other orgs besides 
    cities should have rights to claim warps."
    (CLAN): You say, "I mean I don't know of any house, 
    order, or high clan hubs anyways."

    So what is the better option? No city claims? City claims an allied area? City gets X amount of warps to claim? Something else?
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,399 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Vibrations that ring through the areas the warps are being attacked in. No city claims.
    AodfionnAhmetElipise
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,824 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    The argument that you paid 800cr for a vibrating stick so noone should do anything to impinge on your investment is very entitled. People impinge on other people's investments all the time. Walling off clouds, excommunication, Anathema, being thrown out of organisations, raising physical walls or blocking exits, Magi vibes, people owning the same artefact can all affect the perceived value of an artefact.

    But you know what, even with these cancelled warps, the artefact still works.. The artefact never said you would always have all the warps conveniently located next to each other but damn it, you can still use warps but you're just going to have to tolerate five more seconds of autowalking to get to them.
    Uhh. You're misunderstanding anything I said, so I'm not even going to respond or re-explain about this 'entitlement' you think I have. Also, inconveniences on clouds are not equal to entire warp hubs being cancelled. The org and class losses are dependent on one's actions and not following rules, so still not the same. I can leap, tumble, or break walls. I can cure out of magi vibes and get out. I'm actually more concerned about the time investment of the serpents who keep trying to maintain these, and someone else decides to just destroy all their work with zero consequences. I already have a mapper fix to delete wormholes that don't work anymore, and never said I don't expect wormholes to be destroyed. That's been a problem far longer than I've been playing. I've never ranted about it either, but when it's suddenly a glaring issue because someone keeps doing it to make things unfun for someone else, then yeah that sucks, and points out that maybe something should be fixed or altered.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • DaironDairon Member Posts: 330 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Ok, so I'm finally back at my desk. I'd like to credit this idea @Skarash, since he had the idea of an area wide alert for the city. 

    ADD City Improvement - A Massive Jewel of Resonation (or something to that effect)
    The jewel, once purchased, can be placed at a certain location (within however many rooms of the city, allied village, inside the city, etc) can be charged to alert citizens of a worm cancelling that is taking place. Can be destroyed, probably wouldn't be worth the effort. It would be a good comm sink, and provide a way for the city to react. 

    It isn't the most well-thought out idea, but it's a start. 

    I also think @Atalkez, @Tael, and others have had some pretty good ideas too. @Cooper's idea for the IC month long process is also a neat take on the idea that warps need a finishing time. Regardless, I still hold to the idea that worm cancelling should definitely be for serpents, and serpents only. 
    Kyttin
  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,399 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Walls kill anklet of dashing, ground vibes kills earrings (apparently), ink palletes, gloves of harvesting/extracting, veils kill the investment of other people who have that artefact.

    Serpent's don't have to maintain them, btw. Just like Alchemists don't have to empower other people, priests don't have to bless others... and so forth. That's personal choice they make to invest their time that way. No warp hub, no warp hub war!
    AodfionnKyttinShirszae
  • SkarashSkarash Member Posts: 76 ✭✭✭ - Distinguished
    Dortheron said:
    Skarash said:
    This would make it so that its still possible to destroy a warp covertly but wouldnt cause massive inconvenience to rebuild.
    That wasn't the only problem with the difficulty. Would the splice belong to the serpent who created it until it was claimed by that org? Does that mean that houses, orders, clans, and any other org could have claimed, empowered wormholes? Would claiming it mean that orgs could disable the warps for org enemies? Not only that, but only serpents can build but anyone with high enough survival could attack.

    As for the item, lets make it a real gold sink of 25k for each end of the wormhole and another item of 50k to kill the warp (so total 50k to build and destroy the warp). If you're going to be destroying warps, make it a statement of "I have a bigger bank account than you" :p </trolling>

    Well yes, there are quite a host problems with empowering warps. one that you didnt mention is what if more then one org tries to claim a warp? That's why i dropped the empowerment line of thinking several days ago. While it addresses the wholesale cancellation of convenient warp hubs, it also can be used to extend 'protection' to warps in a host of ways that could be problematic.  Ultimately I felt that it would still be important to be able to cancel a warp covertly.  After all while cities can and do sponsor warp hubs - they arent the only ones with a vested interest in warps and these warps may need cancelling covertly for very compelling reasons to that person. E.g a warp to a divine temple 
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,824 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Tahquil said:
    Walls kill anklet of dashing, ground vibes kills earrings (apparently), ink palletes, gloves of harvesting/extracting, veils kill the investment of other people who have that artefact.

    Serpent's don't have to maintain them, btw. Just like Alchemists don't have to empower other people, priests don't have to bless others... and so forth. That's personal choice they make to invest their time that way. No warp hub, no warp hub war!
    Are you going to list every single artefact here shortly? lol. I've already made my point about my concern, but if you want to keep sidetracking on something else go ahead, but you'll be talking to yourself from here on out.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • TahquilTahquil Member Posts: 4,399 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    edited April 2016
    I like talking to you though. You seem to be a well put together lady with no biases and leanings towards intelligent debate.

    Tying warp hubs to cities is just going to propagate this conflict. Aligned warp hubs will actually make them bigger targets for attacks because either :

    A ) Noone will react and the warp falls.

    B ) People do respond and you've gotten a skirmish with a city without any of the pros/cons of the city raid system.


    I do think that you should have nearly the same requirements to cancel a warp as you do to raise it. Two people, same time requirement, same action restrictions.
    CooperAntidas
  • KayeilKayeil Washington StateMember Posts: 2,824 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    Bullshit you do. You've been shitty toward me ever since you felt 'entitled' to get dragon before me during the Bal'met event and told me I should stop hunting so you could get it first because you imagined there must be some special reward for getting it after Ashexei's death. Other than that, we've pretty much never interacted IC and you definitely don't know me OOC.
    What doesn't kill you gives you exp.

  • MelodieMelodie Port Saint Lucie, FloridaMember Posts: 5,093 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    A note that while you can still get blessings, they don't actually provide any benefit (so they're just empty defenses) if you're not Targossian or allied to Targossas (the second is a bit of a stretch, I don't know if that's true 100%, but I think so). Not sure if bliss works in this way, but I know the actual blessings from Healing do, and have for some years now.

    I don't really want to get in the middle of this mess, but I'll say this much: I have purposefully never invested in the wormwarp artefact precisely because I knew these silly warp wars happen on occasion. I knew investing 800cr into something that could potentially have its access screwed around with by players did not interest me. That was why, when the decision between wings and stick came up, I went wings and never looked back, nor looked at investing it further down the line. It's as simple as that.

    Personally, I won't invest in it probably ever because griefers will be griefers no matter what. Just a fact of life and a decision that has removed me from any annoyance on this subject. For any who get annoyed by it constantly, I'd suggest the same.
    IsmaySherazadShirszaeHalos
  • ShirszaeShirszae Santo DomingoMember Posts: 3,271 @@ - Legendary Achaean
    This whole thread is starting to feel like a troll of sorts.

    And you won't understand the cause of your grief...


    ...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.

    BreanSiduriKyttinHalos
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