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Comments
As for Targossas being diplomatic, I don't see why they need to be. Ashton is the one who wants them to do something, not the other way around. I still think that warp wars are stupid, but that doesn't change the fact that you're asking Targossas to be diplomatic, when they have no reason to be.
Let's assume that it was totally justified.
It's still a dumb form of conflict.
Whether justified or not, no matter who started it or what their IC reason, it's not fun. Just about no one thinks it's fun. I have never seen a Rave post that says "This warp war is so exhilarating!" and I've seen endless rants about it over the years. It's very similar to many other conflict systems that have been taken out or substantially changed for very similar reasons - things like stupid off-continent extermination wars.
It seems to me like the solution should just be to borrow the system used for totems - let orgs use exactly the same claim and empower system on wormholes so the city gets an identical warning when someone's trying to cancel a city-owned wormhole and can respond in exactly the same way.
And I agree that the onus is not on anyone in particular to "be the better man". That onus is on everyone. And that remains true if the other person isn't living up to their end of the bargain - at least when it also impacts third parties (which it almost always does). The "whatever, it's not my responsibility" attitude is how we ended up in the dark times of all-day raids and unfun gank squads and kill rooms justified by saying "well the game lets me do it and it's not against the rules and we're IC enemies and your city leader is a jerk sometimes too, so stop whining and take it up with the admin to see if you can get the rules changed".
Waiting for something to be "done mechanically to make the situation more balanced" just doesn't work. It would certainly be nice if the mechanics were changed to make the conflict less tedious and lopsided, but player restrait is always going to be necessary. Achaea will (hopefully) never be a game so mechanically restrictive that abuse isn't possible, and the whole IC setup is purposefully engineered to produce IC justifications for hostility, so there will always be IC justification for taking abusive actions. OOC restraint is always going to be necessary and that onus is always on everyone, even when some other person isn't living up to it.
On an unrelated note, @Atalkez...are you from Eastern Ohio or thereabouts...?
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Back on subject - it would be a great idea to implement a warning system for warps. Will post other ideas once I get to my desk.
@Tael stolen, because it was a good idea.
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
Wormholes however are just the opposite. They're about movement and the ability for a serpents+stick users to jump from room to room across the same area or between different areas. They are a convenience tool that actually helps offensive actions as others have mentioned before with the mobility it gives serpents.
The root of the problem with wormholes is two:
1) difficulty establishing them
2) the ease of destroying them anonymously
Most people have a problem with 2, as not only does destroying the efforts people put into wormholes because of 1, but the fact that most of the time they can do so without punishment for the most part.
@Cooper's suggestion would try to deal with 1 and 2 by merging the two into a limited period and having about the same difficulty in destroying and establishing them. Empowering them like a totem would definately tackle 2, but doesn't actually stop them from happening and still leaves 1 as a point of frustration when it does happen. @skarash's points about using a medium (like a crystal) for 1 and 2 might help in some manner (needs to be fleshed out) but actually doesn't solve the problem.
I propose a mix of solutions with a bit of my own.
Two serpents would still need to be used to start the wormhole. Splicing is a much shorter period with only establishing a wormhole. They can continue to splice to speed it up, but left on it's own the wormhole would continue to develop on it's own. While being constructed, people can attack the wormhole. If left undefended (they start the splice and then leave) the wormhole quickly collapses under attack. If defended (they stuck around while splicing) the wormhole weakens and is unable to grow to be fully developed until after a set amount of time. After fully established, the wormhole resists attacks with a message in both rooms (maybe the local area for serpents or something about the wormhole being under attack with subterfuge sources?) for a certain amount of ticks, and then goes dormant for a set time. After the dormant cooldown, the wormhole can be attacked and collapsed fully, unless one or two serpents splice it again and try to re-establish it. If no one attacks a dormant warp, the warp will reopen over time
This would deal with 1 by giving them the option to either stick around and risk having it attacked, or let it sit and develop for a longer time. Attackers for warps can strike during it's creation and after, while the worms can be defended after being established by splicing after they go dormant (which kills their use temporarily without actually destroying the warp). While this does increase the time it takes to make the wormholes, it also lengthens the time it takes to completely destroy them. Just setting them dormant might be a viable strategy, as it still stops them from being used without completely destroying them, inspiring conflict of those wanting to use the warps without the potential labor it goes into making them.
Yea, that one!
Presumably there was some short-lived RP thing 100 years ago and Ashtan just flipped a switch on city relations. That's all. It doesn't mean anything. No one "gets in trouble" for killing Petrans.
/derail
Yea, that one!
That's a fairly rare construction in English (most dialects would say "needs to be pointed out" or "needs pointing out") that's been receiving more attention recently in linguistics for somewhat esoteric reasons. This is actually the first time I've heard of it in Texas.
http://microsyntax.sites.yale.edu/needs-washed
Saying one doesn't have a right to a feature of a game because they paid 800 credits to access it would apply to a lot of things if you want to go down that path. Oh, well you're not runie or shaman and can't make your own totems so you have no privelege to access even if you pay for it, so pick up those classes yourself or you're screwed. Oh you don't have harvesting so you don't have the privelege of plants, so make your own. Hey you're not a priest, and even if you're Targossan you can't have blessings because you didn't choose priest for yourself. No runes for you non-runies! I mean it's just a dumb argument overall. Don't care if you bought wings, I was standing here first and don't want you here. No campfires or grove rains for you, go make your own. Nah, I only give alchemist empowerments to myself, you can't have them.
I mean, if anyone is going to take on that attitude, then they just sound like a prick.
The funny thing is, if you were still Team Ashtan you'd be all pro Grandue and telling Targ how dickish they're being for destroying the warp hub (if it is them). But nah you're team Targ now so Ashtan HAS to be in the wrong and too bad, suck it up, no warp hub for you.
I don't think the former is terribly useful in that it relies on the splicers being present, and the latter I think goes perhaps too far. Org empowerment a la totems seems like a better solution to the central problem of conflict over wormholes that are functionally org-owned.
I've no idea what's going on with the present Ashtan hub, but I quite clearly remember Ashtan cancelling the hub Kyttin and I spliced IC decades ago. Not just once, like, six times. And we just said 'screw it'. It could simply be payback for that, I've no idea.
All of the things you mentioned aren't even really the same thing. Blessings don't work for non-Targs, runes don't work for PvP anymore, Tradeskills are available to everyone. Warps are still 100% a Serpent ability, can't be transferred, and it can't be bought. You're purchasing access to these, not unfettered use of warps in perpetuity. There is a difference.
I never said Ashtan was in the wrong, so not sure where that came from. Also, you can't know how any of my opinions would have been shaped "if I was still Ashtani". I formulate my own opinions, and have no issues calling out anyone who is being a dick on my team, your team, or anyone's team. I also have no issue if someone wants to bring something I've done to address it, either. I even said in an earlier post that from an OOC standpoint, this is a dickish thing.
I tend to call things like I see them, regardless of who is involved. I'm not afraid to take positions if I feel they are right. I don't post to forums for likes, or awesomes, or whatever. I don't play the forum RP game, either. Not interested in any of that. I try to keep as subjective and unbiased as possible.
tl;dr My opinions have nothing to do with what faction Atalkez is fighting for, you know, since I'm Radi - not Atalkez.
Edit: @Tael that is interesting. Thanks for that!
Penwize has cowardly forfeited the challenge to mortal combat issued by Atalkez.
I could bring up past points where things you've done and used things for yourself that you were blatantly against on forums, but I don't feel like mulling over past incidences that have nothing to do with the argument over the warp hubs. Only stating that I'm not always sure I 100% buy into your 'unbiased' opinions, but that's only based on personal experience with you, and not expecting anyone else to feel the same way. As for me, I'm highly opinionated and don't care if anyone disagrees with me or chooses to dislike me simply because they don't agree with my opinions (without knowing me at all). I don't have any thing to gain from supporting any single faction, including Ashtan. Could even ask Skarash, as of late I've questioned some of Ashtan's choices and ideas and have thought some of them weak or complete deviations from the stronger city they used to be, but that's their thing so they'll play it out and see how it goes.
Should also state I'm not bff's with Grandue, don't know him all that well. All I've noticed from interactions with him and how extremely helpful he can be is that how you treat him and speak to him seems to go a long way with him, but that may only be the case if you're not in a faction that's always hostile with him and his. For instance, without really knowing me at all, I asked him some questions on mining and instead of giving me short answers or just telling me to figure it out on my own, he set aside a decent chunk of time and taught me a whole lot about it, and answered all of my questions (and has answered more since). He had nothing to gain from teaching me, didn't ask anything in return, not even information on mines or a share in any profits made. So maybe he was undiplomatic, BUT he does have a really good side to him, and he has some great leadership qualities that some of my other favorite leaders in Achaea have. Based on my own experiences, I did feel a bit compelled to defend him when it seemed like he was being painted as a bad person, but can understand if anyone is put off by his reaction, but I don't feel he reacted that way for no reason whatsoever, and believe there's his side of events and why he felt the need to react how he did, and then there's Targ's side to it.
As for the item, lets make it a real gold sink of 25k for each end of the wormhole and another item of 50k to kill the warp (so total 50k to build and destroy the warp). If you're going to be destroying warps, make it a statement of "I have a bigger bank account than you"
Yea, that one!
But you know what, even with these cancelled warps, the artefact still works.. The artefact never said you would always have all the warps conveniently located next to each other. But damn it, you can still use warps, you're just going to have to tolerate five more seconds of autowalking to get to them.
So what is the better option? No city claims? City claims an allied area? City gets X amount of warps to claim? Something else?
ADD City Improvement - A Massive Jewel of Resonation (or something to that effect)
The jewel, once purchased, can be placed at a certain location (within however many rooms of the city, allied village, inside the city, etc) can be charged to alert citizens of a worm cancelling that is taking place. Can be destroyed, probably wouldn't be worth the effort. It would be a good comm sink, and provide a way for the city to react.
It isn't the most well-thought out idea, but it's a start.
I also think @Atalkez, @Tael, and others have had some pretty good ideas too. @Cooper's idea for the IC month long process is also a neat take on the idea that warps need a finishing time. Regardless, I still hold to the idea that worm cancelling should definitely be for serpents, and serpents only.
Serpent's don't have to maintain them, btw. Just like Alchemists don't have to empower other people, priests don't have to bless others... and so forth. That's personal choice they make to invest their time that way. No warp hub, no warp hub war!
Tying warp hubs to cities is just going to propagate this conflict. Aligned warp hubs will actually make them bigger targets for attacks because either :
A ) Noone will react and the warp falls.
B ) People do respond and you've gotten a skirmish with a city without any of the pros/cons of the city raid system.
I do think that you should have nearly the same requirements to cancel a warp as you do to raise it. Two people, same time requirement, same action restrictions.
I don't really want to get in the middle of this mess, but I'll say this much: I have purposefully never invested in the wormwarp artefact precisely because I knew these silly warp wars happen on occasion. I knew investing 800cr into something that could potentially have its access screwed around with by players did not interest me. That was why, when the decision between wings and stick came up, I went wings and never looked back, nor looked at investing it further down the line. It's as simple as that.
Personally, I won't invest in it probably ever because griefers will be griefers no matter what. Just a fact of life and a decision that has removed me from any annoyance on this subject. For any who get annoyed by it constantly, I'd suggest the same.
That love soon might end You are unbreaking
And be known in its aching Though quaking
Shown in this shaking Though crazy
Lately of my wasteland, baby That's just wasteland, baby
And you won't understand the cause of your grief...
...But you'll always follow the voices beneath.